Stopping the other team when they need to only pass

[coolguy]

Champions don't take the field for their final and most important drive of the season with 88 yards behind them and not even be competitive while watching the other team walk right down the field at will. They never even forced a 3rd down.
How can you call a unit that failed horrendously when it mattered most Championship caliber? They ought to be ashamed of that drive.
But hey if you can justify allowing 32 points in a half you can justify anything I guess.

You're 100,000,000,000,000,000 % RIGHT!!!!!!

Everyone here forgot that JOE FLACCO DROVE DOWN THE FIELD ALMOST IDENTICAL TO ELI!!!

This defense* gave up the game in two straight playoff games.......The pats just got lucky in the afc championship game.

If bill can't fix this defense next season, he should have some of his duties stripped from him.

I have been saying this since that buffalo comeback.

 

[ivanvamp]

Champions don't take the field for their final and most important drive of the season with 88 yards behind them and not even be competitive while watching the other team walk right down the field at will.

Well, the 2007 Giants - the World Champion Giants - did just that, essentially. Leading 10-7, the Giants gave the ball back to the Patriots, who then proceeded to march 80 yards in 12 plays to score with just over 2 1/2 minutes left on the clock. The only 3rd down on the play was the TD to Moss.

So, faced with the prospect of holding a lead or letting the other team march down for the likely win, the fabled 2007 Giants defense saw the Patriots just cut them to pieces play after play to take the go-ahead lead.

Of course, there was enough time on the clock for the Giants to have their own game-winning drive (aided by some miraculous stuff), but that's beside the point, which is that their championship defense, when faced with stopping NE and ending the game, absolutely, positively failed to do it and gave up the lead on their (NE's) last real drive of the game.

And that Giants' D did the same thing during the Pats' regular season game with them this year as well. They gave up 17 fourth-quarter points (and 20 points on four scores in NE's last 4 possessions), including the go-ahead TD (after NY was ahead 17-13) as they allowed the Patriots to drive 64 yards in 6 plays in just 1:27 to give NE what should have been the winning score.

Of course, in both these examples, the Giant offense bailed out the defense with a last-second drive of its own, but that doesn't change the fact that even their championship-caliber defense failed in both cases, and allowed NE, who was trailing, to drive down the field in the waning minutes of the 4th quarter to give the Pats the lead.

I haven't read the entire thread so maybe this point has already been covered. If so, forgive the repetition.

 

[ivanvamp]

The Pats' D needs a lot of improvement; I cannot imagine anyone arguing otherwise. However, we *did* see some marked improvement over the course of the season.

Let's break it down a few different ways. These are what the defense allowed, per game average:

First 8 games: 23.0 pts, 416.3 yds, 314.0 pass yds
Last 8 games: 19.8 pts, 405.9 yds, 272.6 pass yds
Playoffs: 17.0 pts, 348.7 yds, 224.0 pass yds

- - - - -

First 4 games: 24.5 pts, 477.5 yds, 368.8 pass yds
Last 12 games: 20.3 pts, 388.9 yds, 268.2 pass yds
Playoffs: 17.0 pts, 348.7 yds, 224.0 pass yds

- - - - -

First 4 games: 24.5 pts, 477.5 yds, 368.8 pass yds
Last 15 games: 19.7 pts, 380.9 yds, 259.3 pass yds

No matter how you slice it, the defense *DID* improve. Here's how their rankings would look if you just counted their last 15 games (averages), which, of course, is just one game shy of a full season:

19.7 pts: 7th in NFL
380.9 yds: 29th in NFL
259.3 pass yds: 30th in NFL

And here's how their rankings would look if you just counted their playoff numbers (assuming they stretched over a full season):

17.0 pts: 4th in NFL
348.7 yds: 17th in NFL
224.0 pass yds: 13th in NFL

Is that a dominant defense? No. Is it a defense you can win a Super Bowl with? Absolutely.

The problem is that this team cannot be counted on to hold a lead late, as is being discussed here and in the other thread. In SB 36, the Rams scored two TD in the 4th quarter, including on their last drive. In SB 38, the Panthers went crazy in the 4th quarter, including a game-tying TD drive on their last possession. In SB 39, the Eagles scored a TD on their last meaningful drive. In the AFCCG in 2006 the Colts chewed the Pats up in the 4th quarter. In SB 42, the Giants scored 14 points in the 4th quarter, including a last-minute game-winning drive. In the Giants' regular season game this year, the Pats' D allowed a last-second game winning TD drive. And in this Super Bowl, the Pats allowed a last-minute game winning TD drive.

So there's REAL cause for concern, but on the whole, the Pats' D improved over the course of the season. There's no question about that. And they should be better next season. But will it matter when it counts? I don't know. The SB-winning Pats still had a hard time stopping teams in the last moments of a game.

 

[letekro]

Both units need to improve. focusing on one to the exclusion of the other is silly. We have people arguing in a completely serious tone that giving up a TD at the end of the game means the D "failed". Never mind that the coach instructed them to allow the winning score. Never mind that the D held an explosive offense to 13 points prior to that point despite two turnovers by the offense. To these folks, presumably the defense would be to blame if they shut out the opponent but gave up a TD at the end to lose 7-3. After all, if they could have just stopped them at the end, we would have won....

With age and free agency, we have holes to fill on the D-line. An upgrade is badly needed at the other safety spot. A corner is needed to compete with a young, but promising group of Dowling/McCourty/Moore/Arrington. 2 spots need to be filled at WR. A third TE is needed. In the grand scheme, this is not anything close to a major overhaul. The roster is in very good shape.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

No, the defense DIDNT do its job. Beside the number of points they allowed, they were destroyed in yardage and TOP. 3 Pats drives started in their 10 yard line. Brady was in the endzone in the safety because of the defense. The defense was a lot worse than the # of points given up shows.

Get a clue, and let me help you with that. Yea, I forgot that Pats Defense somehow forced Brady in the endzone, and ofcourse the Giants Punter plays on Patriots Defense.

As for Defense, POINTS determine W/L, not yards, last I checked.


Super Bowl 46: Unsung Heroes | GiantsFootballBlog.com

Steve Weatherford

The punter is never going to get much publicity, but Weatherford was arguably one of the five most important Giants players in this game. His coffin-corner punting was Jeff Feagles-esque, and after nearly making the Super Bowl the past two seasons, he may have had his best career game last night, pinning the Patriots inside of the 20-yard line three times.

 

[patsderoer]

Get a clue, and let me help you with that. Yea, I forgot that Pats Defense somehow forced Brady in the endzone, and ofcourse the Giants Punter plays on Patriots Defense.

As for Defense, POINTS determine W/L, not yards, last I checked.

yards determine the field position battle, where the Pats were absolutely destroyed in the SB because of their sucky defense. It would certainly have helped the Pats offense to score more POINTS if their last 4 drives didnt start deep in their territory.
TOP determine how much the offense has the ball, and how much they can score, and certainly can influence the POINTS scored by the offense.

Super Bowl 46: Unsung Heroes | GiantsFootballBlog.com

Steve Weatherford

It certainly helps to punt from the 50 yard line. If he punted from the 20 or even from his own endzone, like Mesko was forced to do, I somehow doubt that he would have pinned the Pats inside their 10.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

I love how you've gone so far in your inanity on this issue that you think FORCED 3 FUMBLES is somehow meaningful[/I], when none of them were recovered by the Patriots. It really let's people know how absolutely ridiculous your arguments have become. Now, just to even things out, give the offense credit for first down throws that WOULD HAVE BEEN FIRST DOWNS if they'd been caught.

Defense did its job....allowing 2 less points than season average
Offense gagged 2nd SB in a row, scoring 18 below season average


Case closed. You can keep twisting it as much as you want. Defense did what it did on average in each of those seasons for points allowed - held Giants at or below season average

Cant say that for offense......they were not even in the area code, 22 and 18 points below season avg in each SB(42,46). That's called NOT DOING YOUR JOB WHAT PATRIOTS OFFENSE IS PAID TO DO - SCORE POINTS AS PER SEASON AVERAGE.

Since they scored less than Season average in each of the SB vs Giants, the Offense was below average, and since they scored 22 and 18 points below season averge, they FAILED MISERABLY.

As for FF.....here. There is a record kept for that by the NFL, which recognizes it as an achievement by a player on the defensive side, or team defense, but you wouldn't know that, thus not meaningful in your myopic world.

In your own words since you refuted that "Stats are for losers" does not hold true(BB saying), and stated "Stats are for winners too", FF is a stat then, by ofcourse you have selective memory which ones apply and which don't, conviniently for you.


2011 NFL Player Defense Stats - National Football League - ESPN

 

[DonBlackmon55]

yards determine the field position battle, where the Pats were absolutely destroyed in the SB because of their sucky defense. It would certainly have helped the Pats offense to score more POINTS if their last 4 drives didnt start deep in their territory.
TOP determine how much the offense has the ball, and how much they can score, and certainly can influence the POINTS scored by the offense.

sounding like a 5th grader; past your bedtime


It certainly helps to punt from the 50 yard line. If he punted from the 20 or even from his own endzone, like Mesko was forced to do, I somehow doubt that he would have pinned the Pats inside their 10.

Are you really that stupid ? Pinning the opponent on a punt is an artform moron. It has nothing to do with punting from 50 yard line. If that is the case and Patriots Defense stopped Giants on 50 yard line them how the hell is that bad defense. In fact it was a 36 yard punt. You think every team is going to punt from their 20 yard line ?
Weatherford had 4 punts for 163 yards, avg of 40.8, with the longest being 51 yards.
You're increasing your Stupidity IQ by each comment you make. At this rate you'll be Einstein by your next post.

Focus on your #13 rated DL from Arkansas you want Pats to pickup in 1st/2nd Round, your binkie Jake Bequette. He who is rated as a 4th rounder at best :bricks:

 

[Deus Irae]

Defense did its job....allowing 2 less points than season average
Offense gagged 2nd SB in a row, scoring 18 below season average

Case closed. You can keep twisting it as much as you want. Defense did what it did on average in each of those seasons for points allowed - held Giants at or below season average

The defense didn't do it's job, and it's silly to pretend it did. Your use of the "case closed" just makes it more ridiculous.

Cant say that for offense......they were not even in the area code, 22 and 18 points below season avg in each SB(42,46). That's called NOT DOING YOUR JOB WHAT PATRIOTS OFFENSE IS PAID TO DO - SCORE POINTS AS PER SEASON AVERAGE.

1.) A particular point total is completely irrelevant, and "average" is not required to have done one's job. Anyone who bothers to put any thought into the matter knows that. Without getting into anything beyond strength of opponent, allowing 21 points against a Drew Brees led Saints is almost certainly going to have been a better job than allowing 17 points against a Tyler Palko led Chiefs team.

2.) I'm not claiming the offense did a good job in the Super Bowl, and I'm not claiming that the team doesn't need to upgrade at WR. You're not only making lousy arguments, you're making them to the wrong person. I've been on the record about wanting a WR upgrade since 2009.

Since they scored less than Season average in each of the SB vs Giants, the Offense was below average, and since they scored 22 and 18 points below season averge, they FAILED MISERABLY.

Now you're just repeating earlier inanities.

As for FF.....here. There is a record kept for that by the NFL, which recognizes it as an achievement by a player on the defensive side, or team defense, but you wouldn't know that, thus not meaningful in your myopic world.

By claiming that I'm myopic while you refuse to acknowledge the problems with the defense in the Super Bowl, you clown yourself..

In your own words since you refuted that "Stats are for losers" does not hold true(BB saying), and stated "Stats are for winners too", FF is a stat then, by ofcourse you have selective memory which ones apply and which don't, conviniently for you.

Forced fumbles are meaningless if they're not recovered. The Patriots went 0-for-3 in that department. If you want to point to the stats, go look at the stat for turnovers in the Super Bowl. You'll find that the Giants didn't commit any. Instead of trying to make non-arguments seem as if they mean something, try focusing on the things that matter. Forced fumbles that aren't recovered aren't among those things.

As I noted after the game, the loss was a team effort, with mistakes made by all four phases of the game (offense, defense, coaching, special teams).

 

[ATippett56]

Turning back the clock one year ago, I remember all the comments regarding the revival of the New England Patriots defense for the upcoming 2011-12 NFL season with the return of the following players:

Tully Banta-Cain
Ty Warren
Mike Wright
Leigh Bodden

Selecting only one defensive player in the first five rounds of the 2011 NFL Draft did not upgrade the defense. The acquisition of fat arse Albert Haynesworth was fool's gold.

The unexpected cuts of James Sanders and Brandon Meriweather left the 2011-12 New England Patriots defensive secondary thin at the safety position.

Hopefully, the New England Patriots will prioritize the selection of defensive players in the 2012 NFL Draft with the first three to four picks.

In addition, amending the defensive secondary, especially at the free safety position, with an unrestricted free agent is warranted.

For the 2012-13 NFL season, the New England Patriots organization should not rely upon the following players to upgrade the defense:

Shaun Ellis
Gerard Warren
Mike Wright
Andre Carter
Mark Anderson
Antwaun Molden
James Ihedigbo
Sergio Brown
Nate Jones

Furthermore, it's time for second round draft picks Jermaine Cunningham and Ron Brace to step up and contribute to the New England Patriots defensive effort.

 

[Jangles]

Is this the same AndyJohnson who put his fingers in his ears all season when other posters suggested that maybe our defense was pretty bad?

Hilarious

 

[ATippett56]

Is this the same AndyJohnson who put his fingers in his ears all season when other posters suggested that maybe our defense was pretty bad?

Hilarious

Defensive statistics don't matter except when the New England Patriots don't win the Super Bowl.

New England Patriots regular season defensive rankings:

Third down percentage - 28th
Time of possession - 24th
Opponent passer rating - 20th
Rushing yards allowed - 17th
Rushing yards per attempt - 25th
Passing yards allowed - 31st
Passing yards per attempt - 29th
Total yards allowed - 31st

 

[makoute]

Is this the same AndyJohnson who put his fingers in his ears all season when other posters suggested that maybe our defense was pretty bad?

Hilarious

Well that's nothing we didn't know about him.

 

[coolguy]

Is this the same AndyJohnson who put his fingers in his ears all season when other posters suggested that maybe our defense was pretty bad?

Hilarious

You all did and ridiculed me for saying the defense was still horrible.

 

[ATippett56]

You all did and ridiculed me for saying the defense was still horrible.

Poor baby! Do you want a new pacifier?

 

[coolguy]

Poor baby! Do you want a new pacifier?

No, i want a fourth ring brady and bill's hand............Can you give me that?

 

[ATippett56]

No, i want a fourth ring brady and bill's hand............Can you give me that?

Address your issues with the New England Patriots defense to the original OP!

As for a fourth ring, apply for the position of Director of Player Personnel directly to Robert Kraft.

 

[patsderoer]

Are you really that stupid ? Pinning the opponent on a punt is an artform moron. It has nothing to do with punting from 50 yard line. If that is the case and Patriots Defense stopped Giants on 50 yard line them how the hell is that bad defense. In fact it was a 36 yard punt. You think every team is going to punt from their 20 yard line ?
Weatherford had 4 punts for 163 yards, avg of 40.8, with the longest being 51 yards.
You're increasing your Stupidity IQ by each comment you make. At this rate you'll be Einstein by your next post.

The fact that the Giants punted from the 50 yard line prevented any return and put the offense under immense pressure. Brady had to tie the longest TD drive in SB history. The Giants shortest drive was 9 plays long. Pats defense gave up 50yards per drive in the SB, which in the regular season would had ranked 32, dead last. Which means that even the suckiest of all other NFL defenses is still better than this Pats defense. Claiming that this defense did its job is absolutely ******ed. Your idiocy has no bounds.

Focus on your #13 rated DL from Arkansas you want Pats to pickup in 1st/2nd Round, your binkie Jake Bequette. He who is rated as a 4th rounder at best :bricks:

Jared Allen was also taken in 4th round. I could care less where bequette is rated by the idiot scouts. They are the same idiots who agreed that JM Russel was a 1st overall pick and Tom Brady a 7th rounder.
The same idiot scouts who promoted busts Jermaine Cunningham, Terrence Wheatley, Chad Jackson and Ron Brace as second round draft picks.
Victor Cruz and Wes Welker, two key contributors in their teams SB run, went undrafted.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

It seems like BB assumed that given a lot of opportunities, the other team's offense will make more mistakes than the NE offense most of the time and if they don't, you better be able to come back, and come back quickly. It becomes a game of offensive attrition. Score efficiently and quickly, and limit the big plays on defense so that you see a huge sample of offensive plays. Eventually, the opposing offense shows you most of it's hand and hopefully your efficient offense hasn't shown as much.

This really plays into the strength of NEs passing scheme. Every single receiver has several adjustments to make. A recent article cited that after the snap, there are four different routes that can be run, depending of the other teams coverage, and how it changes. This doesn't include all the routes adjustments made before the snap, so the number gets quite large for every play. I think this complexity means that you don't show your hand nearly as quickly as traditional passing games.

This kind of complexity in the passing game comes at a cost. It takes a long time to master for most players, and really limits the pool of receivers that can work in your system. A lot of time and effort needs to be dedicated to implementing this system each week and takes away from the running game (most weeks). I think the idea behind this is have a passing game that is good enough to score consistently, even when you have to pass. If you can do that, all you need is enough of a running game to keep the other team honest.

 

[PatsFan2]

That's why we need Mario Williams or a very Good three down Pass Rusher from this Draft. Our prior Defenses that won SB's know how to make key Stops...this Defense have failed miserably in that department we are lucky we got this far.