Backup QBs - Hoyer VS Mallet

[Deus Irae]

Oh, my bad... I forgot that you have the crystal ball and know this to be true. So silly of me!

Wait, so you agree that Mallet's shown nothing. You certainly agree that I'm allowed to hold the opinion that Mallet's not going to work out, just as you'd expect to be allowed to hold the opinion that Mallett's going to work out fine. And, despite that, you're going to make this post of yours serve as the rebuttal?

My earlier post:

Mallet was not good in the preseason, and he didn't show much chance of being good in the future, from what I saw. I hope I'm wrong, but I just see another wasted draft pick.

Sorry, nothing controversial there if you agree that he's shown nothing so far. At this point, you're just jousting at windmills.

 

[Ivan]

I was one of the few defenders of Cassel, actually.



Yes, I evaluate players based upon what I see and read. It's a foreign concept to those who evaluate players based upon whether or not the Patriots drafted them, but it's been known to have at least some small percentage of success.



Unneeded player drafted when the team had much more important positional needs and who doesn't seem to be in the team's plans beyond "backup we hope is never needed" or in a position to be of significant help via trade = wasted draft pick

If you think that's crazy or bizarre, well, that's an interesting take on your part.

Cassel sucked in pre-season and there was nothing in print to say he was a good player, so what exactly were you basing your defense of Cassel on?

 

[Deus Irae]

How the hell do you know he won't be a quality starter?

OMG, it's Nostradeaus


Apparently you believe in the Colts strategy of going without a viable back-up.

Before drafting Mallett, the Patriots had Hoyer. After drafting Mallett, the Patriots had...... Hoyer. Seriously, why do you argue points while bringing so little to your argument?

 

[Deus Irae]

Cassel sucked in pre-season and there was nothing in print to say he was a good player, so what exactly were you basing your defense of Cassel on?

He'd played more than one year, and we had more data. Again, why do you insist on bringing so little to your arguments? I've seen your posts. You're capable of making reasoned and quality comments. Do that instead of just nipping at people's ankles because they dare to say something negative about something Patriots.

 

[IllegalContact]

Belichick picked O'Connell. Belichick picked Klingsbury. Belichick picked Davey.


How'd those work out?

none of them are going to work out if you have TFB winning SB's for you.

also, I don't believe it is a stretch to say that O'connell, Klingsbury, and Davey are chumps compared to Mallett. the only one that played at a big school was davey, and theother 2 played in sand lot offenses.

that said, it doesn't matter how many times you pick a position and fail at it....the next one you pick is a different person from all the rest.

 

[Ivan]

Before drafting Mallett, the Patriots had Hoyer. After drafting Mallett, the Patriots had...... Hoyer. Seriously, why do you argue points while bringing so little to your argument?

You are basing your "argument" on nothing, you don't like Mallett that's all, so don't even try to claim your argument is based on anything other than your exalted view of your own opinion. Belichik said they had Mallett rated as the best QB in the draft and he was available in the 3rd, so they took him. The patriots look down the road when they draft, and are making sure their back-ups to Brady are in place, you simply read your Mel Kiper Draft guide and spew crap about how bad the Patriots draft, despite an independent study that showed they have the best draft record of any team this decade.

Your self proclaimed "objectivity" is nothing more than serial contrarianism solely for the sake of being argumentative. You have nothing to show mallett won't work out but pretend you do based only upon your opinion, good luck with that.

 

[JackBauer]

I'd venture to guess you understood my rebuttal.

Quite right. I think he could go either way and, as you've noted, there's a dearth of evidence to support an argument on either side.

My point about substantive criticisms was specifically pointed toward the assertion that he isn't a system fit. Perhaps he is, or isn't, but I haven't seen much in support of that postulation.

I do think there's more grounds for optimism re: Mallett because he's a much better prospect than Davey, O'Connell, or Klingsbury.

 

[IllegalContact]

Before drafting Mallett, the Patriots had Hoyer. After drafting Mallett, the Patriots had...... Hoyer. Seriously, why do you argue points while bringing so little to your argument?

the pats don't have hoyer after the season. at this point in his rookie season, brady was behind john friesz and micheal bishop

your point is a ridiculous one

 

[Ivan]

He'd played more than one year, and we had more data. Again, why do you insist on bringing so little to your arguments? I've seen your posts. You're capable of making reasoned and quality comments. Do that instead of just nipping at people's ankles because they dare to say something negative about something Patriots.

He only played pre-season and he sucked at that. Like every other back-up they have had i base my view of him only on whether or not they keep them around because we have nothing else to base it upon. Unlike other positions they don't see the field so there is nothing to judge them on and we can only go by Belichik sticking with them based upon what they do that we never see. Until Mallett plays against teams during the season we will have no idea whether or not he can play in the NFL.

 

[Deus Irae]

You are basing your "argument" on nothing, you don't like Mallett that's all, so don't even try to claim your argument is based on anything other than your exalted view of your own opinion. Belichik said they had Mallett rated as the best QB in the draft and he was available in the 3rd, so they took him. The patriots look down the road when they draft, and are making sure their back-ups to Brady are in place, you simply read your Mel Kiper Draft guide and spew crap about how bad the Patriots draft, despite an independent study that showed they have the best draft record of any team this decade.

Your self proclaimed "objectivity" is nothing more than serial contrarianism solely for the sake of being argumentative. You have nothing to show mallett won't work out but pretend you do based only upon your opinion, good luck with that.

When you don't have any actual points, fall back on the "contrarianism" crap.


Way to use the template.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Wait, so you agree that Mallet's shown nothing. You certainly agree that I'm allowed to hold the opinion that Mallet's not going to work out, just as you'd expect to be allowed to hold the opinion that Mallett's going to work out fine...

I never said Mallet is going to work out fine. I have no idea.

You have no idea whether Mallett will be an NFL QB, so don't puff out your chest and pretend that you do.

I have no idea if he will or not, and I freely admit it. You are extrapolating from a meager base of evidence to fantastically precise conclusions.

An analogy: I woke up on Jan 1 2012 with a cold and a sore throat. I therefore concluded, with Deus Irae logic, that 2012 was destined to be forever dominated by illness and that it is, indeed, a completely wasted year.

 

[IllegalContact]

When you don't have any actual points, fall back on the "contrarianism" crap.


Way to use the template.

that's what happens when they argue with with someone who makes no actual points of their own.

 

[Deus Irae]

Quite right. I think he could go either way and, as you've noted, there's a dearth of evidence to support an argument on either side.

My point about substantive criticisms was specifically pointed toward the assertion that he isn't a system fit. Perhaps he is, or isn't, but I haven't seen much in support of that postulation.

I do think there's more grounds for optimism re: Mallett because he's a much better prospect than Davey, O'Connell, or Klingsbury.

I hear you and I do think that Mallett has more going for him than the 3 mentioned failures. He's certainly got more "pro style" skills than any of them had. The issues with him that I and others have brought up are ones that (at least mostly) go beyond his basic skill set.

As an aside, I find it interesting that people are now so sensitive that even questioning a backup QB draft pick is bringing out the pit Yorkies. Your post here is by far the most reasonable and rational rebuttal I've gotten in this thread.

 

[Ivan]

When you don't have any actual points, fall back on the "contrarianism" crap.


Way to use the template.

When you are arguing facts I will respond with them, when you are using your opinion as the basis for what you claim is "objectivity," when in fact it's just your opinion, then i will call it what it is, serial contrarianism. If you were basing it upon actual performances you would have a leg to stand on thenit would be an entirely different matter.

If a poster claimed Mallett is going to be good because the Patriots picked them then they would be going on nothing other than their opinion, and when you claim he is a wasted pick just because you don't like it then it is no different. teams can go through their top 2 QB's in less than a quarter and making sure you have good prospects backing them up is good work by the team, and that's all this is. Belichik saw their top rated QB on the board in the 3rd and took him, imo it is no different than seeing Marcus Cannon on the board in the th and taking him, good work on their part. Whether or not they work out is a different question.

 

[patsfan-1982]

whos better Hoyer or Mallet ? well i just hope i never see them play in a game that means anything as long as they are patriots because none of them will evey be even half as good as Brady

 

[Deus Irae]

I never said Mallet is going to work out fine. I have no idea.

You have no idea whether Mallett will be an NFL QB, so don't puff out your chest and pretend that you do.

But I do have an idea. It's one based upon just a smattering of data, but it' still an idea, and posting about it is what these message boards are about.

I have no idea if he will or not, and I freely admit it. You are extrapolating from a meager base of evidence to fantastically precise conclusions.

Nonsense, and now you're being as ridiculous as Ivan. Again, what I'd posted:

Mallet was not good in the preseason, and he didn't show much chance of being good in the future, from what I saw. I hope I'm wrong, but I just see another wasted draft pick.

That's a basic, boilerplate opinion. It's clearly not something trying to be "fantastically precise".

 

[IllegalContact]

But I do have an idea. It's one based upon just a smattering of data, but it' still an idea, and posting about it is what these message boards are about.

LOL.....as smattering......so basically you aren't saying that you don't have a clue, but you have a smattering of a clue. like you almost have no clue.

which basically says that you have no clue but are too full of yourself to admit it.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

sure, but again......nobody was saying boo about brady in january 2001. in fact, the consensus was the week of bledsoes injury was that the pats were screwed. nobody was sitting there saying that this hardworking kids was going to elevate the pats. once the fairy tale was completed, then all of the stories that are relevant to the moment come to the surface.

I'm really not sure what your point is.

My point is simple. Brady's "hunger" and "love" of the game were there from the beginning irrespective of whether or not anybody was "saying" anything about it or whether someone had created a "fairy tale" story out of the sixth round pick, backup QB who won the SB. That attitude would have been his even if a single word was never written about it.

Are you saying that something isn't the case until it is talked about widely? That's the logical implication of your comments.

Or, are you saying that, since we don't know Brady (or any public figure, for that matter) personally, we can't know what is really the case about him and that we are totally dependent on media stories for what we might or might not think about him and that, by extension, what we might or might not think about him is therefore universally suspect? If that's what you're saying, then, in a sense, that's always going to be the situation, in which case we might as well all stop talking and wait for his autobiography or memoir, assuming we believe that he (or anyone) tells the truth in those books anyway.

 

[Deus Irae]

When you are arguing facts I will respond with them, when you are using your opinion as the basis for what you claim is "objectivity," when in fact it's just your opinion, then i will call it what it is, serial contrarianism. If you were basing it upon actual performances you would have a leg to stand on thenit would be an entirely different matter.

It's not contrarianism anymore than your response to Mo was contrarianism, which is a word that you probably don't even understand.

If a poster claimed Mallett is going to be good because the Patriots picked them then they would be going on nothing other than their opinion, and when you claim he is a wasted pick just because you don't like it then it is no different.

See, this is complete nonsense, which was my point about your posts. My opinion is based upon what I've seen of the kid, combined with what I've read of the kid. I'd have the same opinion of him regardless of who drafted him, just as I'd dislike Sanchez' game regardless of which team had chosen him.

teams can go through their top 2 QB's in less than a quarter and making sure you have good prospects backing them up is good work by the team, and that's all this is. Belichik saw their top rated QB on the board in the 3rd and took him, imo it is no different than seeing Marcus Cannon on the board in the th and taking him, good work on their part. Whether or not they work out is a different question.

The Patriot have gone seasons with just one backup. This was not your argument. You're now tossing in the famous moved goalposts to go along with the template swipes. Please, either get original, or get rational and reasoned. One or the other would be appreciated.

 

[IllegalContact]

I'm really not sure what your point is.

My point is simple. Brady's "hunger" and "love" of the game were there from the beginning irrespective of whether or not anybody was "saying" anything about it or whether someone had created a "fairy tale" story out of the sixth round pick, backup QB who won the SB. That attitude would have been his even if a single word was never written about it.

Are you saying that something isn't the case until it is talked about widely? That's the logical implication of your comments.

my point is that at the same point in their careers, we know/knew just as much about both. brady looked like crap as a rookie, also. there was not one inkling of anything at the moment that would say he would be what he turned out to be.

the other point is the notion of even talking about 'hunger' and 'love' in the first place. nobody here knows anything about how driven mallett is. people here are putting most of their eggs in the same basket as mallett's public drunkeness event. to date, nobody has come up with a shred of anything about him as a teammate or a player when he is actually playing. its funny how some here cling to the bum rap and rather invoke 'he's not as pure as the driven snow, so I don't like him, so he's not a good QB' philosophy.

many of these same people argued against me that you have to give ron brace time before you call him a bust....... they're not even consistent with their own beliefs