Backup QBs - Hoyer VS Mallet

[AzPatsFan]

No but he would have likely thrown the ball away, called a different protection scheme (shade over Coats, Byers, etc) and not have thrown an INT.



Actually the D was playing pretty darn well at the end of the year and in the 2nd 1/2, shut down GB offensively. With that said, GB did finish #1 in total offense AND defense. 1996 Pats D was fine. Just ran into a better team... I do think that TB would have made the difference. How much? Not sure but I'd like their chances over DB at QB.

In your response to me, when I said that most of the good Pats QBs had undermanned teams around them, you said that Bledsoe had great talent even though only one of them is ever likely to enter the HOF.

Then you admit that they were undermanned versus the '96 Packers. You then made my very point to you. Do you think Grogan had the equal of the 85 Bears on his team? Did Parilli ever have the equivalent of the KC or Jets personnel, never mind the Packers? And lets not even mention the poor #1 QB who went back to Frisco/Oakland and won a pair of Superbowl trophys, after a horrible beating playing for the Pats.

It takes more than just the QB.

 

[RobertWeathers]

not sure how you can conclude this. brady has had several multi-int games in the playoffs.....to just say brady would not have done that is a stretch....he's cracked under pressure plenty of times.

Tom Brady is a better QB than Drew Bledsoe in all areas except arm strength.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

not sure how you can conclude this. brady has had several multi-int games in the playoffs.....to just say brady would not have done that is a stretch....he's cracked under pressure plenty of times.

Not in a superbowl he hasn't...and he's played in four of them with just one INT he was able to overcome. And if you want to discuss career percentages, well I just don't know what to say to you. Bill and Charlie feared going in they had a problem at the postion, and knew at the end of the 2000 season that they had a big problem and they didn't appear to be able to fix it because it wasn't amenable to being fixed. That's why they drafted Brady and signed Huard, in case they had to pull the trigger at some point in the 2001 season. The trigger just got pulled for them, and likely saved us all even more angst and discord and maybe a few jobs and careers except in the local media. They didn't know what they had when they pulled the trigger, but they knew it was better than the alternative. Turns out it was beyond better, it was ideal.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

In your response to me, when I said that most of the good Pats QBs had undermanned teams around them, you said that Bledsoe had great talent even though only one of them is ever likely to enter the HOF.

Then you admit that they were undermanned versus the '96 Packers. You then made my very point to you. Do you think Grogan had the equal of the 85 Bears on his team? Did Parilli ever have the equivalent of the KC or Jets personnel, never mind the Packers? And lets not even mention the poor #1 QB who went back to Frisco/Oakland and won a pair of Superbowl trophys, after a horrible beating playing for the Pats.

It takes more than just the QB.

Generally speaking this is true. But if you have a QB who needs less then you have more. That's the beauty of Brady - he didn't need to be surrounded by elite talent to win. Three times.

 

[RobertWeathers]

In your response to me, when I said that most of the good Pats QBs had undermanned teams around them, you said that Bledsoe had great talent even though only one of them is ever likely to enter the HOF.

Then you admit that they were undermanned versus the '96 Packers. You then made my very point to you. Do you think Grogan had the equal of the 85 Bears on his team? Did Parilli ever have the equivalent of the KC or Jets personnel, never mind the Packers? And lets not even mention the poor #1 QB who went back to Frisco/Oakland and won a pair of Superbowl trophys, after a horrible beating playing for the Pats.

It takes more than just the QB.

I don't think I proved your point. You said that Bledsoe did not have adequate offensive talent around him. I cited the key offensive players on that squad. Are they HOFs? Martin only, but the others were All-Pro or very productive.

96 GB beat the 96 Pats because their QB was better and a special teams play. The defense was good enough to win. They were undermanned at the QB position.

Plunkett had incredible talent around him in OAK/LA and was only asked to do certain things which gave him incredible confidence in big games. The talent he had in NE was sparse.

Brady had a great defense and did more with less.

Brady is a HOF QB and Bledsoe is not. That is the difference and was the difference in that game.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

I hope not to find out if either of them are any good.

 

[IllegalContact]

Not in a superbowl he hasn't...and he's played in four of them with just one INT he was able to overcome. And if you want to discuss career percentages, well I just don't know what to say to you. Bill and Charlie feared going in they had a problem at the postion, and knew at the end of the 2000 season that they had a big problem and they didn't appear to be able to fix it because it wasn't amenable to being fixed. That's why they drafted Brady and signed Huard, in case they had to pull the trigger at some point in the 2001 season. The trigger just got pulled for them, and likely saved us all even more angst and discord and maybe a few jobs and careers except in the local media. They didn't know what they had when they pulled the trigger, but they knew it was better than the alternative. Turns out it was beyond better, it was ideal.

they were so worried, that they poinied up a 6th round pick......after extending him. your story doesn't jibe. you're making crap up. you don't know what they were thinking in that offseason, so just stop there......they didn't know anything, because if this org did, they would have done something about it. they never really cared what anyone thought.

 

[IllegalContact]

Generally speaking this is true. But if you have a QB who needs less then you have more. That's the beauty of Brady - he didn't need to be surrounded by elite talent to win. Three times.

yup.....it was all brady....LOL

the defense had nothing to do with keeping the rams to 17 points.....it was brady.

the defense had nothing to do with getting the pats to the SB in 2003.

the defense had nothing to do with mcnabb sucking his thuumb by the end of the game or keeping manning to 3 point in 2004.

you just proved to me that you don't know what you are talking about

 

[MoLewisrocks]

they were so worried, that they poinied up a 6th round pick......after extending him. your story doesn't jibe. you're making crap up. you don't know what they were thinking in that offseason, so just stop there......they didn't know anything, because if this org did, they would have done something about it. they never really cared what anyone thought.

I get that your reading comprehension is limited. Do you read at all? If so, try Patriots Reign by Michael Holley. If not, try watching The Brady 6 and listen to what Bill had to say about Brady heading into the 2001 season... They ponied up that 6th with 3 QB's on the roster. And they added Huard the following off season. It was only a matter of time for Drew here in Bill and Charlie's vision of this offense. 5-13 and counting, the injury just sped up the process and gave them a little cover. Brady had the team at 5-5 and coming off a loss to the Rams when they made it official, he was the starting QB for the remainder of the season... You might ask why... The answer, because he gave them a chance that Bledsoe didn't by performing as they coached him to.

 

[IllegalContact]

I get that your reading comprehension is limited. Do you read at all? If so, try Patriots Reign by Michael Holley. If not, try watching The Brady 6 and listen to what Bill had to say about Brady heading into the 2001 season... They ponied up that 6th with 3 QB's on the roster. And they added Huard the following off season. It was only a matter of time for Drew here in Bill and Charlie's vision of this offense. 5-13 and counting, the injury just sped up the process and gave them a little cover. Brady had the team at 5-5 and coming off a loss to the Rams when they made it official, he was the starting QB for the remainder of the season... You might ask why... The answer, because he gave them a chance that Bledsoe didn't by performing as they coached him to.

I read the book, and unlike you, I can tell when dots are connected in a backward manner. It sounds so great after the fact, but you need to be a little naive to think that it was all laid out like that from the get-go.

anyway, none of this has much relevance to the original point, and your notions regarding bledsoe are off base. he did great things for this team and did as much as anyone to legitimize the franchise for its new owner. yes, brady is by far a better quarterback, but that does nothing to reduce the impact that bledsoe had here. Also, I wonder how brady would have turned out if he was served with 4 years of pete carroll. the pats would have still lost the SB to the packers if brady was the QB.

back to mallett. you have still to produce a coherent point as to why you don't think he fits.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I read the book, and unlike you, I can tell when dots are connected in a backward manner. It sounds so great after the fact, but you need to be a little naive to think that it was all laid out like that from the get-go.

anyway, none of this has much relevance to the original point, and your notions regarding bledsoe are off base. he did great things for this team and did as much as anyone to legitimize the franchise for its new owner. yes, brady is by far a better quarterback, but that does nothing to reduce the impact that bledsoe had here. Also, I wonder how brady would have turned out if he was served with 4 years of pete carroll. the pats would have still lost the SB to the packers if brady was the QB.

back to mallett. you have still to produce a coherent point as to why you don't think he fits.

You're the one employing a backwards manner when it comes to dot connection, because the dots don't suit your own opinion. Drew did more for the organization off the field than on it. Same as the HC who drafted him. Which is why both had to move on eventually. Improving perception is one thing, improving reality is the bottom line. No one can say with any level of certainty that a team would have won with one QB over another. But Brady's track record at the same time in his career would at least suggest that the QB wouldn't have thrown 4 picks in that situation. His reputation before he ever got here was as a comeback kid and a player who found a way against all odds. That was what Bill finally concluded after weighing the tape vs. the perception (that Michigan created by appearing to be trying to not go with him for some reason). The way Drew continued to perform even after he got what he wanted in Pete Carroll is what convinced me that Drew was not part of any solution, he was part of the root problem. Drew wanted to be treated like a man, but he ended up behaving like a spoiled boy who had to be the man. He undercut his new HC at every turn. Something Brady never did even when in college he had plenty of opportunity to. He moreso than Pete created the culture of entitlement here. Even Kraft realised that and Bill was brought in to not only change the schemes but change the culture to one of accountability and he gave him the power to install a meritocracy policy where the roster was concerned, and that was the beginning of the end here for Drew. No longer was the job yours or your buddies job his just because... You were going to have to earn it and that included fending off even upstart 6th rounders if they could prove to the staff that in reality they were better football players despite perception to the contrary.

I've given you the rationale behind my opinion on the current backup QB's too many times to rehash it further just to allow you to keep blathering for attention. I hope I'm wrong about Mallett's potential because unless he can be developed into a backup here or a potential starter somewhere else in the next 2 years, Deus will have a point about wasted picks...which is clearly what KOC was. Unlike Deus I accept the rationale behind why Bill does it, I just don't think it plays as well here as it did for Ron Wolfe in GB because of Brady and because of the way Bill approaches preparation for a season. Not much opportunity to showcase backup talent at the position, thankfully.

I'm done playing foil to your cries for attention, though.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Although I'm agnostic regarding Mallett's outlook - too little data, Mo is spot on regarding Bledsoe. I watched this Tall With A Strong Arm tease continue to deteriorate under Petey. Post Patriots, Drew went on to have more flashes of pure athletic brilliance yet always inevitably followed by tragic mistakes. His last game starting for Dallas epitomized his career. Deep within the Red Zone, once again Drew went against the call, gunning the pass to his left only to see it intercepted. Parcells yanked Drew putting in Romo and Bledsoe was finished as a starting QB.

Although I too regard the Mallett pick as a wasted opportunity, I may change my outlook if BB lets Hoyer walk.

 

[IllegalContact]

You're the one employing a backwards manner when it comes to dot connection, because the dots don't suit your own opinion. Drew did more for the organization off the field than on it. Same as the HC who drafted him. Which is why both had to move on eventually. Improving perception is one thing, improving reality is the bottom line. No one can say with any level of certainty that a team would have won with one QB over another. But Brady's track record at the same time in his career would at least suggest that the QB wouldn't have thrown 4 picks in that situation. His reputation before he ever got here was as a comeback kid and a player who found a way against all odds. That was what Bill finally concluded after weighing the tape vs. the perception (that Michigan created by appearing to be trying to not go with him for some reason). The way Drew continued to perform even after he got what he wanted in Pete Carroll is what convinced me that Drew was not part of any solution, he was part of the root problem. Drew wanted to be treated like a man, but he ended up behaving like a spoiled boy who had to be the man. He undercut his new HC at every turn. Something Brady never did even when in college he had plenty of opportunity to. He moreso than Pete created the culture of entitlement here. Even Kraft realised that and Bill was brought in to not only change the schemes but change the culture to one of accountability and he gave him the power to install a meritocracy policy where the roster was concerned, and that was the beginning of the end here for Drew. No longer was the job yours or your buddies job his just because... You were going to have to earn it and that included fending off even upstart 6th rounders if they could prove to the staff that in reality they were better football players despite perception to the contrary.

I've given you the rationale behind my opinion on the current backup QB's too many times to rehash it further just to allow you to keep blathering for attention. I hope I'm wrong about Mallett's potential because unless he can be developed into a backup here or a potential starter somewhere else in the next 2 years, Deus will have a point about wasted picks...which is clearly what KOC was. Unlike Deus I accept the rationale behind why Bill does it, I just don't think it plays as well here as it did for Ron Wolfe in GB because of Brady and because of the way Bill approaches preparation for a season. Not much opportunity to showcase backup talent at the position, thankfully.

I'm done playing foil to your cries for attention, though.

no....not really....neither you nor Deus has provided a single tecnical opinion on mallett......you talk alot, but you don't really say anything

 

[IllegalContact]

Although I'm agnostic regarding Mallett's outlook - too little data, Mo is spot on regarding Bledsoe. I watched this Tall With A Strong Arm tease continue to deteriorate under Petey. Post Patriots, Drew went on to have more flashes of pure athletic brilliance yet always inevitably followed by tragic mistakes. His last game starting for Dallas epitomized his career. Deep within the Red Zone, once again Drew went against the call, gunning the pass to his left only to see it intercepted. Parcells yanked Drew putting in Romo and Bledsoe was finished as a starting QB.

Although I too regard the Mallett pick as a wasted opportunity, I may change my outlook if BB lets Hoyer walk.

everything deteriorated under carroll.....not just bledsoe

so the pats were going into the 2001 season, with brady as their eventual answer, and still signed bledsoe to a $103M deal......mmmmkay

 

[RobertWeathers]

As much as find fault in Bledsoe's his shortcomings as a QB and sometimes childish-like behavior, I actually blame Kraft for the "player's club" environment that developed after Tuna left town. Its debateable if he was a "jocksniffer" or a spoiled owner who thought he deserved more credit for the teams recent success than Tuna, but Kraft had this belief that superior talent win games and if you feed that talent, it will pay off. The problem obviously is that with feeding that talent with money, accolades, coddling, ego-stroking, etc the risk is that it breeds entitlement and laziness. After Tuna left we saw a ton of inflated, misguided contracts that were doled out that were totally over the top (Todd Rucci's comes to mind). We all can remember Kraft offering his expert analysis on how great of a CB Tebucky Jones would become when he was here for a private workout. He also hired managers who also agreed with his philosophy (Bobby Grier and Pete Carroll) but unfortunately we also sub-standard NFL talent evaluators/team leaders. I'd also go on to mention that Bledsoe might have had a little more statistical success if the Pats retained Martin, Glenn stayed healthy, and Coats didn't age an the likes of Tony Simmons and Derrick Cullors never saw the light of day in Foxboro. The unsustainable business model was already in full-force. Just awful....

As others have highlighted, BB brought a totally different perspective to team building, player evaluation and cap management. That is clearly spelled out in how Bledsoe's 10yr $100m contract is structured. While as much as Kraft adored Bledsoe as a person (we assume) he also trusted BBs evaluation of Bledsoe as a QB. That contract was a stroke of genius. Here is an excerpt from Miguel's pages..

Bledsoe will receive $8 million up front. The deal also includes injury insurance that guarantees Bledsoe $6 million over the first three years of the contract. He will get $2 million each year for the first three years on top of the salary, making his total guaranteed money $14 million over the first three years of the contract. With the extension, the Patriots bought flexibility for how they handle Bledsoe's future. The team holds three contract options that will help them spread Bledsoe's money as they see fit.

Even better angle from Willy McDonough:

"Bledsoe just signed a contract extension this year. He got an $8 million bonus as part of a $30 million, four-year deal. On paper, the bonus is pro-rated over the four years. Even though he got the money up front, in NFL accounting procedures, only $2 million of the bonus counts on the Patriots' books this year. However, if they were to trade him next year, the $6 million bonus portion remaining will come due immediately on the Patriots' 2002 account.

But the Patriots would get off the hook for the $5 million they owe him in salary for the 2002 season, so when the math on Bledsoe is concluded, the real hit on the salary cap would be only $1 million. The league cap is expected to exceed $70 million for 2002, so this would not be a big deal."

 

[MoLewisrocks]

As much as find fault in Bledsoe's his shortcomings as a QB and sometimes childish-like behavior, I actually blame Kraft for the "player's club" environment that developed after Tuna left town. Its dabateable if he was a "jocksniffer" or a spoiled owner who thought he deserved more credit for the teams recent success than Tuna, but Kraft had this belief that superior talent win games and if you feed that talent, it will pay off. The problem obviously is that with feeding that talent with money, accolades, coddling, ego-stroking, etc there is a risk that approach breeds entitlement and laziness. After Tuna left we saw a ton of inflated, misguided contracts that were doled out that were totally over the top (Todd Rucci's comes to mind). We all can remember Kraft offering his expert analysis on how great of a CB Tebucky Jones would become when he was here for a private workout. He also hired managers who also agreed with his philosophy (Bobby Grier and Pete Carroll) but unfortunately we also sub-standard NFL talent evaluators/team leaders. I'd also go on to mention that Bledsoe might have had a little more statistical success if the Pats retained Martin, Glenn stayed healthy, and Coats didn't age an the likes of Tony Simmons and Derrick Cullors never saw the light of day in Foxboro. The unsustainable business model was already in full-force. Just awful....

As others have highlighted, BB brought a totally different perspective to team building, player evaluation and cap management. That is clearly spelled out in how Bledsoe's 10yr $100m contract is structured. While as much as Kraft adored Bledsoe as a person (we assume) he also trusted BBs evaluation of Bledsoe as a QB. That contract was a stroke of genius. Here is an excerpt from Miguel's pages..



Even better angle from Willy McDonough:

Exactly. Fans lose sight of the fact that at the end of the day football is not just a game, it's a business and decisions sometimes have to be made for purely business reasons. As long as those decisions don't hamstring you, and the contract didn't, you as Bill says do business as business is done. Had they chosen not to extend Drew or had they been forced to bench Drew, they wouldn't have been in line for a #1 in trade, just another debaucle and a huge headache. As fate would have it...they were. Shame on me for acknowledging that...

 

[IllegalContact]

Exactly. Fans lose sight of the fact that at the end of the day football is not just a game, it's a business and decisions sometimes have to be made for purely business reasons. As long as those decisions don't hamstring you, and the contract didn't, you as Bill says do business as business is done. Had they chosen not to extend Drew or had they been forced to bench Drew, they wouldn't have been in line for a #1 in trade, just another debaucle and a huge headache. As fate would have it...they were. Shame on me for acknowledging that...

so the franchise tag was not available? naaahhhh....lets just sign him to big money and take it from tehre.....that makes no sense.....unless the intent at the moment of the contract offer was not as you say it was.

 

[RobertWeathers]

so the franchise tag was not available? naaahhhh....lets just sign him to big money and take it from tehre.....that makes no sense.....

It makes complete sense. You are missing the point. $14m guaranteed of a $103m contract is not big money. It was structured in a way that gave the team a number of outs with minimal financial impact if the situation changed.

A team will try to avoid the tag at all costs as it forces them to pay the market price and not THEIR price. If you are a business owner, would you like your employees to be paid what 10 other companies pay their employees or what you think the employee is worth to your business and on your payment terms?

unless the intent at the moment of the contract offer was not as you say it was.

The intent of the contract was to pay Drew short-term market value on a team-friendly payment schedule and not bet the farm long-term on his ability to be QB for the NEP.

 

[Elijah T.]

Detailed scouting report on Mallett prior to the draft.

Gridiron Gab 2011 NFL Draft Prospect Scouting Report


Good analysis.

 

[IllegalContact]

It makes complete sense. You are missing the point. $14m guaranteed of a $103m contract is not big money. It was structured in a way that gave the team a number of outs with minimal financial impact if the situation changed.

A team will try to avoid the tag at all costs as it forces them to pay the market price and not THEIR price. If you are a business owner, would you like your employees to be paid what 10 other companies pay their employees or what you think the employee is worth to your business and on your payment terms?




The intent of the contract was to pay Drew short-term market value on a team-friendly payment schedule and not bet the farm long-term on his ability to be QB for the NEP.

it was big money at the time....so why not the franchise tag as with every other player? still makes no sense