PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

2006 statistical comparison to 2003/4


Status
Not open for further replies.
Tell me how the Pats will end up 6-2 against teams with 10 wins or better.

According to DaBruinz:

DaBruinz said:
The 2003 Pats also included the Post-Season, and, theoretically, the Pats could end up at 6-2 against teams with 10 or more wins if they win out.
 
According to DaBruinz:

The 2003 Pats went 7-0 in the regular season against teams that won at least 10 games. In the postseason they went 3-0 for a combined record of 10-0.
 
The 2003 Pats went 7-0 in the regular season against teams that won at least 10 games. In the postseason they went 3-0 for a combined record of 10-0.

And yet the statistics suggest that the 2006 team is better than the 2003 team.

This has been a very interesting discussion - reminds me of the discussion on WEEI over the last few days where some of the hosts and guests were pointing out that if you base your assessment of ProBowl QBs on statistics, JP Losman has a higher QB Rating than Tom Brady.

...and it must be true because the statistics say so!

But of course, not even the most die hard Buffalo homer would agree with that, and would acknowledge that the stats are misleading.
 
And yet the statistics suggest that the 2006 team is better than the 2003 team.

This has been a very interesting discussion - reminds me of the discussion on WEEI over the last few days where some of the hosts and guests were pointing out that if you base your assessment of ProBowl QBs on statistics, JP Losman has a higher QB Rating than Tom Brady.

...and it must be true because the statistics say so!

But of course, not even the most die hard Buffalo homer would agree with that, and would acknowledge that the stats are misleading.

My entire post was also sparked by a discussion on D+H yesterday.

One of the callers went on and on about how Branch and Givens has caught up to the team and how the offense this year is atrocious and blah blah blah - I shut it off.

After turning it back on, Dale presented the stat that the 2006 offense is 9th in the league in scoring, and the 2005 offense was 10th. When asked which was better, Holley said the 2005 offense "because that's what his eye told him." They went on to argue about stats vs. "gut feeling."

Holley even went as far to sort of say that the 2005 defense was better because of that run they went on at the end of the year.
 
Wow - a lot of work went into your post, and you've done a good job illustrating the fallacy of statistics.

You might want to compare the 2006 offense with 2002 as well - because even though that was one of Brady's better statistical years they weren't a Super Bowl caliber team.... of course that would undermine your premise that this is a Super Bowl caliber offense.

There are no stats that can change what everyone has observed with their own two eyes about the offense to date

They've committed what would be a seasons worth of turnovers in a handful of games. The offense has not been consistent and not one that can be expected to go deep in the playoffs. Tom Brady himself admits this.

The biggest difference is somewhat intangible. The 2003/2004 teams knew how to win. When the game was on the line and they absolutely needed a catch or first down to move the ball into scoring position, they nearly always did without fail.

We've seen more than a few last minute drives that had the potential to tie or win a game fall short this year. That happens - but in past years, the offense had a way of making things happen. That's not been there.

The lack of a deep game has allowed Safeties to come up to the line of scrimmage and put a ton of pressure on Brady. In turn they've had to keep an extra TE in to block, further limiting the offense, and in a shortened field, there's less separation for all receivers.

That's just the tip of the iceberg - common sense doesn't require statistics - and common sense tells us that this offense has not played at a SB level.

The defense, when healthy, absolutely has - so we've got that going for us - and if the offense can simply stop making mistakes, we can make the playoffs and contend for the SB again.

But let's not kid ourselves by hiding behind the type of statistics that could likely prove we should have won the 2002 Super Bowl as well.

Bosh and drivel. The 2002 club won more than it lost and finished at 9-7 tied for th AFCE title and lost on tiebreakers. But it lost because the Defense was terrible, not because the Offense wasn't good enough. there ar eno stats that would have shown the 2020 club good enough. If you can't stop the run and they couldn't, the 2002 defense wasn't very good.

Common sense is only useful when its utilized. It says there are only two clubs with an Offense and Defense in the top ten in the real league, the Bolts and Pats. That makes them less weak, and more complete, than all the other contenders. And that is true despite 15 guys on IR, and a dozen more questionable with injuries.
 
But it still doesn't support the case (not necessarily yours) that the Pats' struggles against 'winning' teams this year will translate to an early exit.[/QUOTE]

* Your offensive stats don't translate into winning a SB either. Frankly I don't care about the stats. If O and D stats won SB's there'd have been different winners in many years.
 
Patriots are now 4th in the league in Football Outsider's weighted DVOA measure, which takes into account strength of opposition. We're 8th in Offense, 5th in Defense, and 3rd in Special Teams. We're the only team in the top 10 in all 3 categories. It's interesting that we moved up from 8th to 4th this week, presumably because our past opponents are getting better and better (AFC East particularly). However, we're 29th in variance, which indicates we're not consistent from week to week (I think we've all observed that). For those who might suggest our high status is based on early season performance, that's not true, as Weighted DVOA discounts games more than 8 weeks old. In straight DVOA, which weights all games evenly, we're 5th in the league overall.

Bizarre season.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/12/19/ramblings/dvoa-rankings/4712/

BTW Jacksonville is 5th overall in the league in weighted DVOA, and their defense is 3rd behind Baltimore and Chicago, so there's plenty of sky left to fall.
 
But it still doesn't support the case (not necessarily yours) that the Pats' struggles against 'winning' teams this year will translate to an early exit.

* Your offensive stats don't translate into winning a SB either. Frankly I don't care about the stats. If O and D stats won SB's there'd have been different winners in many years.

Right - which is why the eyeball test is most important, factoring in the intangibles that win Championships...

How you are playing IN THE PRESENT is the most important factor. Including stats from beginning of the season, far less important. So by relyiong on those stats too heavilly you can fool yourself into thinking that a team is better (or worse) than it is.

The eyeball test says that over the previous 6 games the Patriots offense has been mediocre, committing tons of turnovers, with defenses placing a ton of pressure on Brady in part due to the lack of a more credible deep game.

Looking solely at the Houston game - although they are a mediocre opponent at best - they did not committ any errors and while they still weren't perfect, did more than enough to win.

So, as another thread posed, which team do we have? The inconsistent one of the previous 6 weeks, or the dominating one of the Houston game.

The Patriots fan in me wants to believe its the team that beat Houston. The football fan in me thinks that the previous 6 games were probably a more fair assessment of what this team is made of.

The final two regular season games will give us a better sense of what we have in the present - factoring in what the team was doing in September doesn't do a whole lot to help us right now in assessing the team and their playoff chances.
 
The 2003 Pats went 7-0 in the regular season against teams that won at least 10 games. In the postseason they went 3-0 for a combined record of 10-0.

Miguel -
Thank you for correcting me. The Patriots DID go 10-0 against teams with 10 or more wins in 2003.
 
Right - which is why the eyeball test is most important, factoring in the intangibles that win Championships...

How you are playing IN THE PRESENT is the most important factor. Including stats from beginning of the season, far less important. So by relyiong on those stats too heavilly you can fool yourself into thinking that a team is better (or worse) than it is.

The eyeball test says that over the previous 6 games the Patriots offense has been mediocre, committing tons of turnovers, with defenses placing a ton of pressure on Brady in part due to the lack of a more credible deep game.

Looking solely at the Houston game - although they are a mediocre opponent at best - they did not committ any errors and while they still weren't perfect, did more than enough to win.

So, as another thread posed, which team do we have? The inconsistent one of the previous 6 weeks, or the dominating one of the Houston game.

The Patriots fan in me wants to believe its the team that beat Houston. The football fan in me thinks that the previous 6 games were probably a more fair assessment of what this team is made of.

The final two regular season games will give us a better sense of what we have in the present - factoring in what the team was doing in September doesn't do a whole lot to help us right now in assessing the team and their playoff chances.

Phooey! this club is stronger and better than it was at the start of the season, even without allowance for injuries...

I confidently predict that the Pats will finish the season 11-5 or better. And that is plenty good enough to get into the Tourney.

And that is what the regular season is all about, and only that.

BTW 11-5 is the best record in the Pats history except for the two of five SB clubs that went 14-2, to put things into perspective...:D
 
Patriots are now 4th in the league in Football Outsider's weighted DVOA measure, which takes into account strength of opposition. We're 8th in Offense, 5th in Defense, and 3rd in Special Teams. We're the only team in the top 10 in all 3 categories. It's interesting that we moved up from 8th to 4th this week, presumably because our past opponents are getting better and better (AFC East particularly). However, we're 29th in variance, which indicates we're not consistent from week to week (I think we've all observed that). For those who might suggest our high status is based on early season performance, that's not true, as Weighted DVOA discounts games more than 8 weeks old. In straight DVOA, which weights all games evenly, we're 5th in the league overall.

Bizarre season.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/12/19/ramblings/dvoa-rankings/4712/

BTW Jacksonville is 5th overall in the league in weighted DVOA, and their defense is 3rd behind Baltimore and Chicago, so there's plenty of sky left to fall.

Post more. You are smart and unequivocal. Thanks.
 
Right - which is why the eyeball test is most important, factoring in the intangibles that win Championships...

How you are playing IN THE PRESENT is the most important factor. Including stats from beginning of the season, far less important. So by relyiong on those stats too heavilly you can fool yourself into thinking that a team is better (or worse) than it is.

The problem with eyeball tests is that they're completely subjective. You see one thing, I see another. The value of statistics is that they're objective, everyone can see them, and they can even tell you things about teams and games you haven't eyeballed. But if the stats consistently disagree with your eyeballing, you'll discount them, either because they're bad or because you've got a biased view. The holy grail is a statistical system that correlates well with most peoples eyeballs. I've found the Football Outsiders system to be the best in that regard.

We also all have our prejudices, and they tend to affect what we see. You seem to always see problems with this year's wr's not stretching the field; NEM always sees bad offensive play calling. You can fairly accuse many of the rest of us as seeing too much good in the outcome of any Patriots game.
Statistics can sometimes alert us to our prejudices, if we only let them.
 
Tell me how the Pats will end up 6-2 against teams with 10 wins or better.

Jets - If they finish with 10 wins, the Pats are 1-1.
Denver - If they finish with 10 wins, the Pats are 1-2. If not, they don't count.
Colts - This was a loss.
Jacksonville - If the Pats win, they don't count. If the Pats lose, they would count.
Bears - This was a win.
Bengals - If they finish with 10 wins, Pats beat them.

Lets assume that the Bengals and Jets finish with 10 wins and the Pats run the table in the play-offs. That would be 6 wins against teams with 10 or more wins. This also assumes that the Broncos and Jaguars lose 1 of their last 2 games.

Now, it IS possible that there will only be 4 teams who would have won 10 or more games. The Pats, Ravens, Chargers, and Colts. The the Pats would be 0-1 against teams with 10 wins, but they could end up at 2-1.

You never did answer my question, though. How can you fault the Patriots for not winning 7 games against opponents who had 10 wins or more if the teams the Pats are playing are so close, parity wise, that those teams aren't able to put together 10 wins? You can look at it two ways. Either that the teams in the league have improved that much that its a battle each and every week, therefore, its significantly tougher for teams to win 10 games. OR teams have digressed that much that they can't put together the consistency to win 10 games. I believe its the former and not the latter.
 
Just as an aside, in 2003, there were 9 teams who finished with 5 wins or less. In 2006, there are 3 teams that are guaranteed NOT to finish with more than 5 wins. There are 4 other teams who may or may not finish with 5 wins.

In 2003, there were 13 teams that won 10 or more games. For 2006, there are only 4 teams guaranteed to finish with 10 or more wins. There are 5 teams who could, potentially, reach the 10 win plateau.

So, which is it? Has the league, as a whole, gotten better or worse.
 
Just as an aside, in 2003, there were 9 teams who finished with 5 wins or less. In 2006, there are 3 teams that are guaranteed NOT to finish with more than 5 wins. There are 4 other teams who may or may not finish with 5 wins.

In 2003, there were 13 teams that won 10 or more games. For 2006, there are only 4 teams guaranteed to finish with 10 or more wins. There are 5 teams who could, potentially, reach the 10 win plateau.

So, which is it? Has the league, as a whole, gotten better or worse.

More parity.
 
Was it Mark Twain who once said, "There are Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics"?

On defense, the numbers tell us pretty much the same thing that our eyes do.

On offense, not so much. The 2006 WRs do not compare favorably at all to the 03/04 WRs, either in talent or production. Nor do they compare favorably to the rest of the 2006 NFL. In this regard, I don't care what the numbers say - mine eyes have not seen the glory.

Jacksonville's run defense is very good - 3rd in yds/rush. It is imperative that our WRs find ways to get open and to catch some intermediate/long passes, not only to score points, but to at least gain field position. Let's then see how those numbers look after Sunday.
 
Love the statistical analysis. (how do you guys do it?)

i agree that the eyeball test confirms that this years D and ST are as good as if not better than previous championship teams.

the offense is clearly weaker, something the statistics dont seem to show. could it be that there are other statistics that might cast more light on the situation.
- how many games did we score on first possession
- what percentage of total games were we playing from ahead
- what was percentage of success in two minute drills at end of half or game

my intuition is that in 03/04, we were able to get some points when we needed them, and then retreat back into a more conservative approach. i have not seen us this year with that same ability.

also, we do have an easier schedule this year, which clouds the comparisons.

great thread guys. :cool:
 
Love the statistical analysis. (how do you guys do it?)

i agree that the eyeball test confirms that this years D and ST are as good as if not better than previous championship teams.

the offense is clearly weaker, something the statistics dont seem to show. could it be that there are other statistics that might cast more light on the situation.
- how many games did we score on first possession
- what percentage of total games were we playing from ahead
- what was percentage of success in two minute drills at end of half or game

my intuition is that in 03/04, we were able to get some points when we needed them, and then retreat back into a more conservative approach. i have not seen us this year with that same ability.

also, we do have an easier schedule this year, which clouds the comparisons.

great thread guys. :cool:

I can go through and check the 1st and 3rd points, but the 2nd would be tough to find.
 
The problem with eyeball tests is that they're completely subjective. You see one thing, I see another. The value of statistics is that they're objective, everyone can see them, and they can even tell you things about teams and games you haven't eyeballed. But if the stats consistently disagree with your eyeballing, you'll discount them, either because they're bad or because you've got a biased view. The holy grail is a statistical system that correlates well with most peoples eyeballs. I've found the Football Outsiders system to be the best in that regard.

We also all have our prejudices, and they tend to affect what we see. You seem to always see problems with this year's wr's not stretching the field; NEM always sees bad offensive play calling. You can fairly accuse many of the rest of us as seeing too much good in the outcome of any Patriots game.
Statistics can sometimes alert us to our prejudices, if we only let them.

Kasmir, I agree with your comments on the FO stats. The other posts have been interesting as well. A fun discusion. :D

So here's the FO stats from the 2006 team (so far), compared to the 2004 and 2003 teams. Explanations of the methods are here. All percentages are compared to league average, established over the most recent set of seasons, so they're comparable from year-to-year. Schedule strength is the average of all the total DVOA's of all the opponents from that year. Negative is bad for offense and ST and good for defense. Ranks in parens.

2006
------
Total DVOA: 22.3% (5th)
Off. DVOA: 6.3% (8th)
Def. DVOA: -11.4% (5th)
S.T. DVOA: 4.6% (3rd)
Schedule
Strength DVOA: -1.9% (22nd)
Variance: 21.0% (4th)

2004
------
Total DVOA: 35.7% (1st)
Off. DVOA: 24.2% (4th)
Def. DVOA: -11.3% (6th)
S.T. DVOA: 0.2% (16th)
Schedule
Strength DVOA: 4.9% (8th)
Variance: 17.3% (10th)

2003
------
Total DVOA: 22.8% (3rd)
Off. DVOA: 0.4% (14th)
Def. DVOA: -22.0% (2nd)
S.T. DVOA: 0.4% (17th)
Schedule
Strength DVOA: 0.6% (16th)
Variance: 15.0% (20th)

Here's the picture I see from these numbers (with a couple comments from my eyeballs):

2003 was a dominant defense (2nd to BAL) with a mid-pack offense (14th, go Antoine go!) that combined to get the job done. They played a mid-pack schedule (16th). They were reasonably consistent (20th in Variance, lower ranks, more consistent, higher ranks less consistent). The big thing is that this was the Judge Smails defense: "You'll get nothing and like it!" Law and Harrison were healthy, so the secondary was never better in the SB era.

2004 was a dominant team overall, with a MUCH better offense (24.2%, 4th to IND, KC, MIN) and a defense that slipped a bit. A tough schedule (8th) left no doubt about who the best team was, on a play-by-play basis. This Pats offense was a ton better than in 2003 (0.6%), almost twice as good as in 2005 (12.8%) and is almost 4 times better than this year so far (6.3%). We were spoiled by this offense, which had Branch and Givens at their peaks, as well as Dillon with an "Indian Summer" season in his career. The execution of the offense was such that it could do whatever it pleased. Brady and Weis were like kids in a candy store. As a whole, the team was a bit more up and down than 2003 (Variance was 10th), but by and large they could bring it whenever necessary. Defense had health problems and slipped numerically to half as good as 2003, but still was plenty enough to win, relative to the competition (ranked 6th in the league).

2006 has a team with a defense on par with 2004 (-11.4%) with a similar rank (5th). Although the offense is in the top 10 (6.3%, 8th), it is far off the pace of 2004 (24.2%). It's way ahead of 2003 (0.4%) and slightly behind 2005 (12.8%). The schedule strength is in the bottom half of the league (22nd). Much easier than in 2004 (8th) and slightly easier than 2003 (16th). The big thing about 2006: the team is VERY up and down (Variance of 21%, 4th in the league). And that's the problem I see with this current team. We just don't know which Pats team is gonna show up. In 2003, you could hang your hat on the defense. In 2004, on the offense. When the dominant squad in a given year had a bad game, most of the time the other squad bailed it out. My eyeballs tell me this year we've had more synchronized suckage and less synchronized poundage on both sides of the ball than in 2003-2004.

So, that's not to say the Pats can't make the SB this year, but so far they've been inconsistent and haven't conclusively shown that they can, which too me was the case in 2003-2004. Obviously, the playoffs are likely, and anything can happen there. And although I can see faults in this team, I'll just say that I'm totally enjoying the fact that our worst down year in this 6-year run is 9-7 and losing the playoffs on tiebreakers. Notice the "runs" by the other SB and playoff teams in the league over this stretch (e.g. IND, PIT, PHI, SEA, OAK, TB).

FYI, the Jags are first in variance, so that means anything could happen this Sunday. :D
 
Pats' scoring on their first possession of the game:

2003:

1 - no
2 - no
3 - yes, FG
4 - yes, FG
5 - no
6 - no
7 - no
8 - yes, FG
9 - no
10 - no
11 - no
12 - yes, FG
13 - no
14 - yes, TD
15 - yes, TD
16 - yes, TD
17 - yes, TD
18 - yes, TD
19 - no

FGs - 4/19 = 21%
TDs - 5/19 = 26%
Total - 9/19 = 47%

2004:

1 - yes, FG
2 - no
3 - yes, TD
4 - no
5 - yes, TD
6 - yes, FG
7 - yes, FG
8 - yes, FG
9 - yes, FG
10 - yes, TD
11 - no
12 - yes
13 - yes, TD
14 - yes, TD
15 - no
16 - no
17 - no
18 - yes, FG
19 - no

FGs - 6/19 = 32%
TDs - 5/19 = 26%
Total - 11/19 = 58%

*You may remember the Pats set a record by scoring first 20 straight games - snapped in game 16 (vs. SF)

2006:

1 - no
2 - no
3 - no
4 - no
5 - yes, FG
6 - yes, TD
7 - yes, TD
8 - no
9 - no
10 - yes, TD
11 - no
12 - no
13 - no
14 - no

FGs - 1/14 = 7%
TDs - 3/14 = 21%
Total - 4/14 = 29%
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


New Patriots WR Javon Baker: ‘You ain’t gonna outwork me’
Friday Patriots Notebook 5/3: News and Notes
Thursday Patriots Notebook 5/2: News and Notes
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 5/1: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Jerod Mayo’s Appearance on WEEI On Monday
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/30: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Drake Maye’s Interview on WEEI on Jones & Mego with Arcand
MORSE: Rookie Camp Invitees and Draft Notes
Patriots Get Extension Done with Barmore
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/29: News and Notes
Back
Top