My Observations Pre Season Game 1

[PatsWickedPissah]

I too thought that having Boddin in the slot for the first pre season game was curious However this is the time when BB tries a lot of positional things, why not have Boddin take some reps in the slot. Given that he didn't play at all last season, he need all the snaps he can get this pre season. BTW Its also good to give him some snaps in the slot because there ARE teams, like Miami, who use big WRs in the slot (Marshal), and when they do Boddin is the best match up. If Butler becomes the slot CB, that wouldn't be a good match up

The point being I wouldn't get all excited about ANY position changes BB does during the first couple of weeks.

BB has said in years previous that one major purpose of pre-season is to explore the abilities of players to play different positions. Expect more such.

 

[The Scrizz]

Spare me the bad run defense argument Andy. We didn't play bad run defense for that game, it was for 2 drives.

The first drive of the game, after not having to tackle anybody for the last 8 months, our backups gave up a few long runs to the Jags starting OL (7,8,16 yd runs). The horror.

Then they had a drive where they had 2 long runs (13 and 19 yds), both on draws, with the Pats already up 33-9.

They had one other draw play out of the shotgun for 11 yards.

They finished with 97 yards on 23 carries.

37 came on the 1st drive where admittedly they didn't look ready.

The next 6 drives netted them 17 yards on 11 carries with 11 yards coming on 1 1st down shotgun draw play. That is domination in the run game.

On drive 8, down 33-9 late in the 3rd quarter, the Jags ran 5 straight times for 40 yards with 32 of them coming on 2 draw plays. The other 4 run plays of the drive, all conventional running plays, got them 9 yards.

So to sum up. Drive 1, our backups gave up a few medium to long runs in their 1st action against the Jags starters at OL. For the entire remainder of the game they gave up 4 runs of longer than 3 yards.

1 was a first down 7 yard run which they followed up by runs of zero and zero on 2nd and 3rd down. 1 was an 11 yard draw on 1st and 10 from shot-gun, and 2 were draws on passing downs (both 2nd and 7) with the Jags down by 24 late in the 3rd.

They started out slow, dominated the entire middle of the game, and got tricked a few times on obvious passing downs. 44 of their 97 yards were garbage time when they were way down. When the game had any meaning at all they went for 53 yards on 16 carries, for 3.2 yds per.

In the red-zone they gave up 8 yards on 4 carries.

I'm sorry, but I'll take a defensive effort like this every game. Did you watch the game or just read the stat sheet?

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not exactly making a proclamation here, nor am I making an argument that this move is even a good one. I'm pretty bluntly stating I don't know anything about Williams. I'm suggesting it as a possibility that allows Tate to be kept on the roster, keeps 5 CBs on the roster, and an excellent ST gunner in williams (reportedly).

The fact is that you can only put 53 guys on the roster. How would you fit Tate on the roster? Cut Edelman? And I'm not even trying to make an argument here that Tate should be on the roster. But he's one of the tougher guys to leave off for me, and Edelman and price haven't exactly impressed me in KR (yet).

There are many ways. I dont think you need to throw Slater (who in my opinion is much a lock as the starters) out in order to keep an extra WR. We have kept 4 corners many years, we have kept only 8 OL some years. 4 Rbs is a real possibility, etc, etc.
I also think Edelman is far from safe, in fact, Slater is a lot safer than Edelman IMO, especially if Price looks good on PRs.

 

[Patspsycho]

I too thought that having Boddin in the slot for the first pre season game was curious However this is the time when BB tries a lot of positional things, why not have Boddin take some reps in the slot. Given that he didn't play at all last season, he need all the snaps he can get this pre season. BTW Its also good to give him some snaps in the slot because there ARE teams, like Miami, who use big WRs in the slot (Marshal), and when they do Boddin is the best match up. If Butler becomes the slot CB, that wouldn't be a good match up

The point being I wouldn't get all excited about ANY position changes BB does during the first couple of weeks.

Bodden played the slot in Cleveland quite often. Think of this 3 CB nickel: Arrington-McCourty with Bodden on the slot. That'd be something wouldn't it?

 

[Ring 6]

Spare me the bad run defense argument Andy. We didn't play bad run defense for that game, it was for 2 drives.

Do you think that was good run D?

The first drive of the game, after not having to tackle anybody for the last 8 months, our backups gave up a few long runs to the Jags starting OL (7,8,16 yd runs). The horror.

Against there backups. The run D was not good, if you want to make excuse to explain it go ahead but that doesnt mean it was good.

Then they had a drive where they had 2 long runs (13 and 19 yds), both on draws, with the Pats already up 33-9.

We were not in prevent defense.

[/quote]They had one other draw play out of the shotgun for 11 yards.

They finished with 97 yards on 23 carries.

37 came on the 1st drive where admittedly they didn't look ready.[/quote]

Yes, that was part of the run defense.

The next 6 drives netted them 17 yards on 11 carries with 11 yards coming on 1 1st down shotgun draw play. That is domination in the run game.

OK, let me restate. We made some good plays vs the run, and some bad ones, and overall it was poor.

On drive 8, down 33-9 late in the 3rd quarter, the Jags ran 5 straight times for 40 yards with 32 of them coming on 2 draw plays. The other 4 run plays of the drive, all conventional running plays, got them 9 yards.

So to sum up. Drive 1, our backups gave up a few medium to long runs in their 1st action against the Jags starters at OL. For the entire remainder of the game they gave up 4 runs of longer than 3 yards.

1 was a first down 7 yard run which they followed up by runs of zero and zero on 2nd and 3rd down. 1 was an 11 yard draw on 1st and 10 from shot-gun, and 2 were draws on passing downs (both 2nd and 7) with the Jags down by 24 late in the 3rd.

Again, if you want to make excuses go ahead and feel better, but those dynamics are part of run defense all season long. If we can take away the plays we don't want to count, we are great at everything, unfortunately they all count.

They started out slow, dominated the entire middle of the game, and got tricked a few times on obvious passing downs. 44 of their 97 yards were garbage time when they were way down. When the game had any meaning at all they went for 53 yards on 16 carries, for 3.2 yds per.

There is no garbage time in a preseason game. Teams don't go to prevent with a lead.

In the red-zone they gave up 8 yards on 4 carries.

I'm sorry, but I'll take a defensive effort like this every game. Did you watch the game or just read the stat sheet?

Yes I watched every play at least twice, and I saw poor run defense. If you like good run defense 60% of the time and like to close your eyes to the 40% that is poor, feel free, I don't assess things that way.

 

[Ring 6]

Bodden played the slot in Cleveland quite often. Think of this 3 CB nickel: Arrington-McCourty with Bodden on the slot. That'd be something wouldn't it?

Thinking bigger, as Dowling develops we have McCourty and Dowling outside and Bodden inside. Big strong corners who can play bump and run, zone, jam receivers, basically do it all, with a solid starting corner moving inside for the sub.

 

[The Scrizz]

Do you think that was good run D?


Against there backups. The run D was not good, if you want to make excuse to explain it go ahead but that doesnt mean it was good.


We were not in prevent defense.

They had one other draw play out of the shotgun for 11 yards.

They finished with 97 yards on 23 carries.

37 came on the 1st drive where admittedly they didn't look ready
Yes, that was part of the run defense.


OK, let me restate. We made some good plays vs the run, and some bad ones, and overall it was poor.



Again, if you want to make excuses go ahead and feel better, but those dynamics are part of run defense all season long. If we can take away the plays we don't want to count, we are great at everything, unfortunately they all count.


There is no garbage time in a preseason game. Teams don't go to prevent with a lead.


Yes I watched every play at least twice, and I saw poor run defense. If you like good run defense 60% of the time and like to close your eyes to the 40% that is poor, feel free, I don't assess things that way.

So I never said we were playing prevent, I said that 3 of their biggest runs came in obvious passing situations, and were draws to boot. I'm sorry if our 3rd stringers weren't expecting run up 33-9 on a passing down. If you watch those plays and try to tell me they weren't playing pass all the way then you are full of ****.

I admitted that they played poor run defense on the first drive, but at least some of the Jags line were starters. Their starting LT was definitely in there. Our MLB was playing the position of 4-3 MLB for the first time ever, calling the plays for the first time ever, and they hadn't tackled anybody for real in 8 months. You can call these excuses, I call them mitigating factors. Did you miss them completely DOMINATE the run game for the next 30 minutes? They didn't play 'good', they dominated to the tune of 11 rushes for 23 yards.

Then with the score out of hand and the guys obviously playing pass (not prevent but pass. If they had been playing prevent the runs would probably have been shorter because they would have been looking to keep the play in front of them), they give up 2 draw plays. A good learning moment for the lads but meaningless given the game situation.

As for your ratio's, it was more like they played poorly on 20% of the plays, dominated 70%, and were okay on 10%.

I won't bother arguing any more because not one of you 10,000 plus posts have ever including you changing your mind or admitting you're wrong so why bother?

 

[rojo8401]

Arrington started at corner and Bodden started the Jags game in the slot. I was a little surprised to see that.

• This board consistently forgets Kyle Arrington. Back when Moss was here, Arrington was covering him one on one in practice and has played solidly for the Pats overall.
  
• The best ST player on the team is Tracy White. White is an exceptional tackler.
  
• Slater stays, Edelman goes is my guess / wish.

 

[nnmnmmnn]

Price has dropped at least 5 punts in practice. Unless he stops doing this (NOW) he is not the solution as PR. The last punt he fielded in the game wasn't the best decision either, he's lucky he can still walk.

 

[The Scrizz]

Price has dropped at least 5 punts in practice. Unless he stops doing this (NOW) he is not the solution as PR. The last punt he fielded in the game wasn't the best decision either, he's lucky he can still walk.

Which is why Edelman makes the team.

 

[nnmnmmnn]

Which is why Edelman makes the team.

...and takes one of the 53 roster spots.

 

[crowell33]

• This board consistently forgets Kyle Arrington. Back when Moss was here, Arrington was covering him one on one in practice and has played solidly for the Pats overall.
  
• The best ST player on the team is Tracy White. White is an exceptional tackler.
  
• Slater stays, Edelman goes is my guess / wish.

Bill Belichick obviously agrees. His first year as a starter was rewarded with a new contract including some nice guaranteed dollars.

 

[crowell33]

Thinking bigger, as Dowling develops we have McCourty and Dowling outside and Bodden inside. Big strong corners who can play bump and run, zone, jam receivers, basically do it all, with a solid starting corner moving inside for the sub.

If it turns out that Dowling can play ( hopefully he doesn't turn out to be another Bulter ) and if he can reverse his recent injury history and stay healthy....................that would be great.

 

[Ring 6]

So I never said we were playing prevent, I said that 3 of their biggest runs came in obvious passing situations, and were draws to boot. I'm sorry if our 3rd stringers weren't expecting run up 33-9 on a passing down. If you watch those plays and try to tell me they weren't playing pass all the way then you are full of ****.

Of course the facts show you are wrong.

2-3-NE 47 (12:54) R.Jennings up the middle to NE 31 for 16 yards (P.Chung)
2nd and 3 is not an obvious passing down.


3-3-NE 11 (12:50) (Shotgun) M.Owens up the middle to NE 11 for no gain (D.Fletcher).
3rd and 3 is not an abious passing down, if we cant stop a 3rd and 3 run we will be in big trouble.
2-7-JAX 16 (4:37) R.Murphy left end to JAX 29 for 13 yards (B.Lockett; M.Murrell
2nsd and 7 is not an obvious passing down.
2-7-JAX 32 (3:25) R.Murphy left end pushed ob at NE 49 for 19 yards (J.Wilhite).
2nd and 7 again is not an obvious passing down.

I admitted that they played poor run defense on the first drive, but at least some of the Jags line were starters. Their starting LT was definitely in there. Our MLB was playing the position of 4-3 MLB for the first time ever, calling the plays for the first time ever, and they hadn't tackled anybody for real in 8 months. You can call these excuses, I call them mitigating factors.

You cannot disagree that the run defense was bad if you are saying there are excuses or mitigating factors, whatever yuo want to call them.

Did you miss them completely DOMINATE the run game for the next 30 minutes? They didn't play 'good', they dominated to the tune of 11 rushes for 23 yards.

That is not dominating, not unless you keep it up all day. Allowing numerous 10 plus runs surrounding a stretch of 2 ypc is not dominating run defense.

Then with the score out of hand and the guys obviously playing pass (not prevent but pass. If they had been playing prevent the runs would probably have been shorter because they would have been looking to keep the play in front of them), they give up 2 draw plays. A good learning moment for the lads but meaningless given the game situation.

We were playing base defense, and they were playing base offense. Excusing run defense by saying the score was out of hand in a preseason game is silly.

As for your ratio's, it was more like they played poorly on 20% of the plays, dominated 70%, and were okay on 10%.

I was generalizing, but any defense that allows 10 or more yards on close to 20% of the rushing plays is struggling.

I won't bother arguing any more because not one of you 10,000 plus posts have ever including you changing your mind or admitting you're wrong so why bother?

That is, of course, incorrect.
If you'd like to make your point better though show me some cases where you admitted you were wrong. I love how 2 people disagree and neither change their opinion and one acts like the other is the only one sticking to their own opinion

Its fine if you want to consider 4 runs of over 10 yards out of 23 attempts good defense.
Its fine if you want to only count the plays you want to count and consider some parts of run defense not run defense.
But we saw the same game, and my opinion is if we play run defense like that we will be in deep trouble. If you are happy with that performance, then I hope you are right and we can play run defense like that and be OK because we may not lose a game all year if thats the case.

 

[Ring 6]

• This board consistently forgets Kyle Arrington. Back when Moss was here, Arrington was covering him one on one in practice and has played solidly for the Pats overall.
  
• The best ST player on the team is Tracy White. White is an exceptional tackler.
  
• Slater stays, Edelman goes is my guess / wish.

White covering KOs is probably the single aspect of special teams that is better than anyone doing anything, but overall I would call Slater our best special teamer. Either way, both are excellent.

 

[The Scrizz]

the three obvious passing downs I was referring to were:

1. 1-10-JAC42 (6:13) (Shotgun) D.Karim left tackle to NE 47 for 11 yards (B.Meriweather). - not necessarily a passing down but certainly a passing formation/situation that I'll excuse the guys for falling for.

The other 2 were the 2 2nd and 7's that you mentioned. They are likely passing downs regardless and obvious passing downs when you are down 33-9 late in the 3rd quarter.

I can find plenty of posts where I admit I'm wrong about something. You'll waste 20 pages arguing with everyone whether the Pats were in 2-gap.

And you will still ignore that the run D was dominant except for a few plays.

 

[italia44]

If it turns out that Dowling can play ( hopefully he doesn't turn out to be another Bulter ) and if he can reverse his recent injury history and stay healthy....................that would be great.

How do you "reverse" your recent injury history?....jeezus h christ:bricks:

 

[Frezo]

How do you "reverse" your recent injury history?....jeezus h christ:bricks:

Peabody here...

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Videos 1st half

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Enjoy. 2nd Half will be up tomorrow.

 

[Ring 6]

the three obvious passing downs I was referring to were:

1. 1-10-JAC42 (6:13) (Shotgun) D.Karim left tackle to NE 47 for 11 yards (B.Meriweather). - not necessarily a passing down but certainly a passing formation/situation that I'll excuse the guys for falling for.

The other 2 were the 2 2nd and 7's that you mentioned. They are likely passing downs regardless and obvious passing downs when you are down 33-9 late in the 3rd quarter.

I can find plenty of posts where I admit I'm wrong about something. You'll waste 20 pages arguing with everyone whether the Pats were in 2-gap.

And you will still ignore that the run D was dominant except for a few plays.

1st and 10 and 2nd and 7 are not obvious passing downs.
Saying that they were passing downs because of the score in a preseason game is silly.
Those plays count, which is the reason the run D was bad. Bad run Ds have good plays too, but too many bad ones. This was a bad run D.
Regardless of whatever qualification you want to put on the plays, they are run defense plays, are they not.
The fact that I continue to have discussions with people about points we disagree on has nothing to do with whether or not I accept when I am wrong. I would like to see the examples you claim of you admitting you are wrong. This thread would be a good opportunity to show that, since we are now up to 5 runs out of 23 that went for over 10 yards. Are we saying allowing 10 or more yard on more than one of every 5 rushing attempts is good run D?