No pass rush = one and out

[Sicilian]

No more unwarrented than your outrage at my questioning BB for not trying to address this problem.

Fair enough. I retract my outrage

I want BB to address the issues that face this team, and the biggest need on this team is/was/will be pass rush.

It is one of the issues, but there are other areas where we could use help. As such, if there are two players available, both at a position of need, and BB feels strongly about one and not the other, I want him taking the player he believes in, not the one that satisfies the area of "greater" need.

How do you know, where in the original interview? Maybe this is who he is, maybe he is a one sack type of player? Maybe BB hit it big? At least he tried to address an issue that the team has had for at least the last three seasons.

I don't, but neither do you, so casting him off and saying we haven't done anything to address the pass rush is premature.

Our secondary was pretty good last year, our safties hit people, recievers had to look out when they came across the middle. Our CB's did well, McCorty was very good and will get better, Arrington did a decent job and will be much better as a nickle this year assuming Bodden comes back and can stay healthy. Run game, top ten in the league. OL, we addressed that, TE, we have two very good rookies from last years draft.

I don't want Kyle Arrington starting again. Trooper that he was, he's not meant to be a top corner. Bodden coming back SHOULD help prevent that, but what if he's slow getting up to speed, or there's an injury to him or McCourty? I'd rather have more talent to deal with the inevitable injury we always seem to suffer to CBs, especially in a league these days that has teams with 4 good targets.

As for the run game, Taylor and Morris can't make it through a season, meaning we were one bad hit away from using Woodhead as our every down back. I don't like that either, so I'm glad we added some youth (and were able to do so outside of the first round, where I don't like taking RBs).

Seems like BB doesn't like any OLB. The Pats will not get a better pass rush unless they actually try to do something to make it better. They haven't in a couple of years now, and we are 0 for 2 in the playoffs, in a large part because of pass rush. The Ravens had one and we didn't have one against the Jets.

As has been pointed out, the Ravens game had nothing to do with OUR lack of pass rush, and in either game you could argue that the bigger problem was our INABILITY to keep Brady upright (and you could make the same argument for SB42). We have taken steps to address that.

 

[Oswlek]

Let me see if I've got this right....

So, expecting a pair of first year starters at OLB to improve is completely outlandish, but expecting a rookie DE to make huge contributions at a position he's never played is perfectly reasonable?

And didn't NE draft an athletic OLB prospect this year, or was that my imagination?

 

[randomk1]

Let me see if I've got this right....

So, expecting a pair of first year starters at OLB to improve is completely outlandish, but expecting a rookie DE to make huge contributions at a position he's never played is perfectly reasonable?

Other than Cunningham who the hell are you expecting to improve? Ninkovich? Banta-Cain ? Eric Moore?


Whether we like it or not some of those guys we passed on will probably become pretty darn good players but would only be JAG's in our system. Then again JAG's become starters in our system.

 

[Haley]

Other than Cunningham who the hell are you expecting to improve? Ninkovich? Banta-Cain ? Eric Moore?

From the sound of things, BB is expecting Mooore from Moore this year.

 

[Oswlek]

Other than Cunningham who the hell are you expecting to improve? Ninkovich? Banta-Cain ? Eric Moore?


Whether we like it or not some of those guys we passed on will probably become pretty darn good players but would only be JAG's in our system.

Why wouldn't Nink improve? He has every year so far.

And what is so outlandish about thinking Moore's role might expand a little?

You guys are so worked up about the OLB situation that you can't see the total picture. With Jermaine, Nink, Mayo, Spikes, Guyton and Fletcher (and, yes, one more OLB would be nice) NE has an extremely solid developing corps of linebackers whose skillsets fit nicely together.

It just takes time for the guys to learn the position(s) and for BB to learn how best utilize them. And patience is something NE fans are apparently in short supply of.

 

[randomk1]

Why wouldn't Nink improve? He has every year so far.

And what is so outlandish about thinking Moore's role might expand a little?

You guys are so worked up about the OLB situation that you can't see the total picture. With Jermaine, Nink, Mayo, Spikes, Guyton and Fletcher (and, yes, one more OLB would be nice) NE has an extremely solid developing corps of linebackers whose skillsets fit nicely together.

It just takes time for the guys to learn the position(s) and for BB to learn how best utilize them. And patience is something NE fans are apparently in short supply of.

Patience is a virtue but not when your star QB is entering the twilight of his career and obviously has more injury issues to deal with every passing year.

I liked Moore's effort and a full season with the team will help him out no doubt. Ninko doesn't have the physical tools to be anything more than what he already he is...he will not be the impact guy we need in the front 7.
Cunningham's development could be the key for us this year....he showed flashes of that rare ability to straight up beat his man 1 vs 1 and create pressure. I think it was Oher who he embarrassed.

 

[Oswlek]

Patience is a virtue but not when your star QB is entering the twilight of his career and obviously has more injury issues to deal with every passing year.

I liked Moore's effort and a full season with the team will help him out no doubt. Ninko doesn't have the physical tools to be anything more than what he already he is...he will not be the impact guy we need in the front 7.
Cunningham's development could be the key for us this year....he showed flashes of that rare ability to straight up beat his man 1 vs 1 and create pressure. I think it was Oher who he embarrassed.

So, we should ignore the consistent improvement in Nink's career simply because you think he doesn't have the tools? He's actually very athletic and was very productive in college.

Ninkovich transferred to Purdue in 2004 and played in all 12 games that season.[2] Despite being a reserve, Ninkovich was tied for the team lead and ranked second in the Big Ten with eight sacks.

As a senior in 2005, Ninkovich earned second-team All-Big Ten honors after recording 48 tackles, eight sacks, two interceptions, two forced fumbles and a fumble recovery. He recorded four sacks against Indiana for the second straight season, giving him two of the three individual four-sack performances in school history.

But, since he isn't one of the big names you had on your 2011 watch list, he must not "have the tools to be" successful.

How exactly does Brady's career have anything to do with the time it takes for NE to acclimate an OLB? You do realize that every OLB from those superbowl teams needed two years or more to develop, right?

 

[randomk1]

How exactly does Brady's career have anything to do with the time it takes for NE to acclimate an OLB? You do realize that every OLB from those superbowl teams needed two years or more to develop, right?

You don't see the correlation between an aging QB and fixing a big need for the team to make a championship run?

Do you honestly believe all of our problems last year on defense came down to a lack of experience and injuries? Lack of talent isn't a problem?

Ninko,Banta-Cain,Moore are all seasoned pro's....i suggest you stop holding your breath on them becoming the next James Harrison.

 

[Oswlek]

You don't see the correlation between an aging QB and fixing a big need for the team to make a championship run?

Do you honestly believe all of our problems last year on defense came down to a lack of experience and injuries? Lack of talent isn't a problem?

Ninko,Banta-Cain,Moore are all seasoned pro's....i suggest you stop holding your breath on them becoming the next James Harrison.

What are you talking about?

Let me spell this out for you.

Every single successful OLB in NE has had at least 4 years of NFL experience and 2 years in the system before becoming so.

You seem to think that there is some magic OLB elixir out there that creates an immediate Ware impact when every piece of evidence indicates otherwise. Interesting that you bring up Harrison, as it actually undermines your own case. He was a nobody, accumulating 4 sacks in his first 4 seasons before finally, in his 5th year becoming elite.

Try as you might, whining and complaining on a message will never change the fact that transitioning from college DE to 2 gapping OLB takes time.

 

[randomk1]

What are you talking about?

Let me spell this out for you.

Every single successful OLB in NE has had at least 4 years of NFL experience and 2 years in the system before becoming so.

You seem to think that there is some magic OLB elixir out there that creates an immediate Ware impact when every piece of evidence indicates otherwise. Interesting that you bring up Harrison, as it actually undermines your own case. He was a nobody, accumulating 4 sacks in his first 4 seasons before finally, in his 5th year becoming elite.

lol, is that a rule? 4 years+2 years in NE to be successful? Banta-Cain is really destroying the world and every offense in it,we're set with him. Ninko is ready to be 8 sack guy. Does Cunningham fit the criteria or do we need 1 extra year?
Moore's got 1 year to go so we're ****ed on his part for this season.
Forget about Carter. It's ridiculous to think that there are no rookies available that could play OLB and actually do something. Moore can walk off the street and start but since he's like 30 he's ok.

My point with James Harrison is that he is rare....if a guy shows nothing for most of his career he will most likely not show anything for the rest of his career...they don't become defensive player of the year.

 

[Deus Irae]

What are you talking about?

Let me spell this out for you.

Every single successful OLB in NE has had at least 4 years of NFL experience and 2 years in the system before becoming so.

You seem to think that there is some magic OLB elixir out there that creates an immediate Ware impact when every piece of evidence indicates otherwise. Interesting that you bring up Harrison, as it actually undermines your own case. He was a nobody, accumulating 4 sacks in his first 4 seasons before finally, in his 5th year becoming elite.

Try as you might, whining and complaining on a message will never change the fact that transitioning from college DE to 2 gapping OLB takes time.

This is untrue, as AdT's first season with the Patriots demonstrates. For that matter, Cunningham was one of the Patriots 2 best all-around OLBs last year, despite missing time AND making the conversion on the fly.

 

[Oswlek]

lol, is that a rule? 4 years+2 years in NE to be successful? Banta-Cain is really destroying the world and every offense in it,we're set with him. Ninko is ready to be 8 sack guy. Does Cunningham fit the criteria or do we need 1 extra year?
Moore's got 1 year to go so we're ****ed on his part for this season.
Forget about Carter. It's ridiculous to think that there are no rookies available that could play OLB and actually do something. Moore can walk off the street and start but since he's like 30 he's ok.

My point with James Harrison is that he is rare....if a guy shows nothing for most of his career he will most likely not show anything for the rest of his career...they don't become defensive player of the year.

Is it a rule? Of course not. But if it is as easy as spending a top pick, where are all the success stories?

Your use of Harrison is wonderfully ironic because it actually argues against your own point. NE's OLBs read like a checklist of guys like him.

Vrable - 1.5 sacks in his rookie year and 7 in his first 4 years combined.

Colvin - 2 sacks in his rookie year and 5 total in his first 2 seasons.

Tedy - As a rush end amassed 12 sacks total in his first 4 seasons before transitioning to ILB.

Willie Mac is the only guy who defies things a little, getting 11 sacks in his 2nd year, but he was a #4 overall pick and still only got 4.5 sacks in his rookie season.

As I said before, complaining doesn't change the fact that there is no historical precedent for an immediate impact OLB, but there is loads of precedent that guys can develop.

 

[Oswlek]

This is untrue, as AdT's first season with the Patriots demonstrates. For that matter, Cunningham was one of the Patriots 2 best all-around OLBs last year, despite missing time AND making the conversion on the fly.

AdT played ILB his first year here and only moved outside after Colvin went down. He wasn't that great at it either.

I agree about Cunningham, but the point is that his best is still ahead. As optimistic as I am about Jermaine, he wasn't Vrabel in 2003 last year. But Vrabel in 2001 wasn't Vrabel in 2003 either.

 

[Deus Irae]

AdT played ILB his first year here and only moved outside after Colvin went down. He wasn't that great at it either.

I agree about Cunningham, but the point is that his best is still ahead. As optimistic as I am about Jermaine, he wasn't Vrabel in 2003 last year. But Vrabel in 2001 wasn't Vrabel in 2003 either.

It probably seems like I'm stalking you in the 2 threads, and that's not what I'm doing, so my apologies if it's coming off that way. With that being said, you were putting out an example as if it was an absolute when it's not, which is why I pointed out those examples.

I agree (and so does Bruschi) that Belichick clearly prefers seasoned veterans for his linebacking corps, and part of that is likely the faster adjustment time. I just think that he hasn't yet come to grips with the reality that he doesn't have the same options for that approach as he used to, because other teams have become more successful at keeping those sort of players.

 

[Oswlek]

It probably seems like I'm stalking you in the 2 threads, and that's not what I'm doing, so my apologies if it's coming off that way. With that being said, you were putting out an example as if it was an absolute when it's not, which is why I pointed out those examples.

I agree (and so does Bruschi) that Belichick clearly prefers seasoned veterans for his linebacking corps, and part of that is likely the faster adjustment time. I just think that he hasn't yet come to grips with the reality that he doesn't have the same options for that approach as he used to, because other teams have become more successful at keeping those sort of players.

Whether he's "come to grips" is arguable, but it absolutely is true that the demand for those guys is higher than it was. Perhaps in time he'll adjust his risk/reward scale for those guys and target a few more 1st round DE prospects.

The real problem is that BB waited 2-3 too many years to start the transition. I might be one of the few who think Nink has the chance to be a good OLB, but it certainly would have been easier to swallow if his formative years had been more out of the spotlight.

 

[randomk1]

Is it a rule? Of course not. But if it is as easy as spending a top pick, where are all the success stories?

Your use of Harrison is wonderfully ironic because it actually argues against your own point. NE's OLBs read like a checklist of guys like him.

Vrable - 1.5 sacks in his rookie year and 7 in his first 4 years combined.

Colvin - 2 sacks in his rookie year and 5 total in his first 2 seasons.

Tedy - As a rush end amassed 12 sacks total in his first 4 seasons before transitioning to ILB.

Willie Mac is the only guy who defies things a little, getting 11 sacks in his 2nd year, but he was a #4 overall pick and still only got 4.5 sacks in his rookie season.

As I said before, complaining doesn't change the fact that there is no historical precedent for an immediate impact OLB, but there is loads of precedent that guys can develop.

Ugh...what makes you think they will even come close to those guys you mentioned? What have they shown? Do you honestly believe our pass rush issues are fixed by the start of next year with the current roster? All they need is experience? It's stupid to think we can turn castaways into the next Vrabel or Bruschi.

 

[supafly]

Ugh...what makes you think they will even come close to those guys you mentioned? What have they shown? Do you honestly believe our pass rush issues are fixed by the start of next year with the current roster? All they need is experience? It's stupid to think we can turn castaways into the next Vrabel or Bruschi.

They may not be 'fixed' as you say, but they should be improved. You have to consider the extreme difficulty of learning the overall scheme here, especially at that specific position.

As the younger players improve there (Cunningham etc), they will show better play. This will also in turn be helped by a healthy front defensive line, and a healthy and improved back end defensive secondary. The whole thing will gel, and come together (hopefully), by making improvements in those 2 areas also, and more importantly---that seems to be where Belichick sees the easiest way to improve things.

As for the 'castaways' comment---Cunningham was a 2nd round pick, certainly not a castaway. I understand what you're saying with Ninkovich, TBC (may not even be here???). If Cunningham continues to learn and show improvement, we will have 3 out of 4 LB's set up pretty well. If not, it will likely be addressed next year again. There is also the possibility as some have pointed out, that BB is targeting more of a veteran presence once free agency starts. He may be waiting to see how many become available with the rule changes etc. If not, having 2-3 decent LB out of 4 isn't too bad--especially with an improved front line, and an improved secondary. They can't be all-stars all around. It should be plenty to continue the impressive 2nd half of defense last yr.

 

[Oswlek]

Ugh...what makes you think they will even come close to those guys you mentioned? What have they shown? Do you honestly believe our pass rush issues are fixed by the start of next year with the current roster? All they need is experience? It's stupid to think we can turn castaways into the next Vrabel or Bruschi.

You're still not making any sense. I have loads of precedent that NE's LBs (not just their OLBs, the entire unit is responsible for impoving the pass rush) will improve. Where is your historical precendent that a rookie OLB will solve all the pass rush woes?

Won't an healthier secondary and DL help things along? Why must everything come down to an OLB picking in the first two rounds?

All I can say is, thankfully BB has a more holistic approach to roster building than you do.

 

[Deus Irae]

Whether he's "come to grips" is arguable, but it absolutely is true that the demand for those guys is higher than it was. Perhaps in time he'll adjust his risk/reward scale for those guys and target a few more 1st round DE prospects.

The real problem is that BB waited 2-3 too many years to start the transition. I might be one of the few who think Nink has the chance to be a good OLB, but it certainly would have been easier to swallow if his formative years had been more out of the spotlight.

If he had come to grips with it, he wouldn't have been largely ignoring it in the first 2 rounds even up through this year. I used to defend him on this during debates with RayClay, because Belichick's way was still working up to 2007, but he's been stuck there while the Steelers have adapted, and we've seen the Steelers pass the Patriots as the beast of the AFC partly as a result.

 

[randomk1]

They may not be 'fixed' as you say, but they should be improved. You have to consider the extreme difficulty of learning the overall scheme here, especially at that specific position.

As the younger players improve there (Cunningham etc), they will show better play. This will also in turn be helped by a healthy front defensive line, and a healthy and improved back end defensive secondary. The whole thing will gel, and come together (hopefully), by making improvements in those 2 areas also, and more importantly---that seems to be where Belichick sees the easiest way to improve things.

I like the optimism most of you guys have here so call me back when we don't get embarrassed at home by Mark ******* Sanchez. I'll gladly eat a dish of crow.