Barking up the Wrong Tree...

[E Belichick Unum]

Actually, you are not a football guy. You are someone who thinks they are a football guy but really isn't.

That's most likely the reason nobody has written any articles explaining to you where the pass rush comes from. It's not worth anybody's time.

So, enlighten me, give me the benefit of your wealth on knowlege on the subject! Because, I guess unlike you, I am just a poor schmuck who doen't know what he is talking about.

But first let me explain that I don't give a good flying fu*k what you think, unless you can point me in a direction that shows me that sacks make no difference and that it is better to apply sporadic pressure than it is to sack the QB. From where I sit on Sunday, very probably the same type of location that you sit in, the Pats have no pass rush to speak of and the fact that your part time nose tackle is your teams leading sacker points to larger issues than just applying pressure.

But I ramble. Regail me with your wisdom.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think you have your verbs mixed up. The defense WAS not ready for prime time. We don't know how good it will be this year. However given the return of Ty Warren, Lee Bodden, and Mike Wright (yeah, I think he'll be be back, if they thought he wouldn't be ready, we might have seen a DE selection in the draft) AND the potential improvement in the backfield with another big physical CB. AND the natural improvement that comes when the youngest D in the league becomes less young and inexperienced; AND you could see improvement in the defense as the season went on; there is an excellent chance that the D WILL BE better. And that doesn't include what we pick up in FA

To say the D will suck before it plays a down, is ludicrous. Its fair to question it, but patently unfair to label it with the kind of certainty you implied.

Point taken. They proved to be not ready for prime time. The addition of aforementioned players will improve the defense. I still think they are lacking defensively but that's besides the point.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

So, enlighten me, give me the benefit of your wealth on knowlege on the subject! Because, I guess unlike you, I am just a poor schmuck who doen't know what he is talking about.

But first let me explain that I don't give a good flying fu*k what you think, unless you can point me in a direction that shows me that sacks make no difference and that it is better to apply sporadic pressure than it is to sack the QB. From where I sit on Sunday, very probably the same type of location that you sit in, the Pats have no pass rush to speak of and the fact that your part time nose tackle is your teams leading sacker points to larger issues than just applying pressure.

But I ramble. Regail me with your wisdom.

Nobody ever game planned for Vrabel anymore than someone makes a living unicorn herding.

That's only marginally better than one of the pass rusher/impact player advocates recommending Vernon Gholston

A dozen sacks? Yeah, in 2007, on an "old,slow" defense that did not win it and 5 or 6 of those sacks were registered in the Redskins blowout.

The real and more problem is seeing things that never existed.

 

[plk]

He will gamble on a 4th and 2 from his own 30 but not take a swing to get a Miller or Smith with all the ammo we had. What did he do? Traded out!

Have you really still not figured out that Belichick did the right thing on 4th and 2? It has been demonstrated repeatedly that statistically going for it and punting are close with a slight advantage to going for it. Given our defense against Peyton Manning, it was a no-brainer.

You only have a 50% hit rate with a top-five pick.

A 50% Chance You'll Squander Millions - WSJ.com

This suggests to me that "taking a swing" with a late first-round pick is not a smart thing to do.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

Nobody ever game planned for Vrabel anymore than someone makes a living unicorn herding.

That's only marginally better than one of the pass rusher/impact player advocates recommending Vernon Gholston

A dozen sacks? Yeah, in 2007, on an "old,slow" defense that did not win it and 5 or 6 of those sacks were registered in the Redskins blowout.

The real and more problem is seeing things that never existed.

I never said that anybody planned for Vrable, but they did have to make sure he was taken care of, 12 sacks is a pretty big number in the NFL and 2007 was the last time we even sniffed the Super Bowl, and the fact we lost it can be placed directly at the feet of your idea that QB pressure is just as important as putting the QB down. If we had a pass rusher in the game maybe he gets to Manning on fourth down.

I am still waiting for you to show me how pressure is better than sacks and how having 3 people with a total of 11.5 sacks is just as good as having one person with 12 sacks, even if a bunch came against bad competition.

 

[DW Toys]

Have you really still not figured out that Belichick did the right thing on 4th and 2? It has been demonstrated repeatedly that statistically going for it and punting are close with a slight advantage to going for it. Given our defense against Peyton Manning, it was a no-brainer.

You only have a 50% hit rate with a top-five pick.

A 50% Chance You'll Squander Millions - WSJ.com

This suggests to me that "taking a swing" with a late first-round pick is not a smart thing to do.

No you misunderstand. I am 100% with him on that play (which they made!!!) and would want him to do the same thing. My point was guts. He had them then but he Drafts in fear.

I am not the biggest fan of build through the Draft. Case in point last weekend. What the hell did we build...nada. Are we a better Team today? No. Maybe more depth. 17% is the actual number across the Draft board 1-7. You bench a .170 hitter.

I like to play for this year not 2013 or 2014. I like solid FAs or trades.

DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

Did you just cite picking up Vernon Gholston as a 'compelling move' for the Pats? *facepalm* Now I've heard everything.

You didn't read my reasoning. Cheap tryout in camp. He has tools and then a chip. Of course we can always ride the TBC horse into the valley of death as far as pass rush I guess. Double facepalm. That is IMO.
Sometimes you have to do something even if it is wrong. A tryout with a different attitude can work sometimes. No pressure here as there was in NYC. Kid.. let's see what ya got!
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

You win. Some dude says we are 9th based on something. Hard to argue with that.

Seriously dude, last five years our best pick was Meriweather? Yeah, better than Mayo and McCourty. That's a joke, right? But I'll play along. You consider those 8 (Jets?) teams better drafters than the Pats, right? I'll be back later. Sleep well. (also, we also have 10 starters from the last 5 drafts, but 6 is close to that number.)

No denying last year was a magnificent Draft. I have my opinion on how he Drafts. I respect what everyone says but I am not to be swayed. No one cares what my opinion is or any of the others. Great coach. Drafts scared.
DW Toys

 

[plk]

No you misunderstand. I am 100% with him on that play (which they made!!!) and would want him to do the same thing. My point was guts. He had them then but he Drafts in fear.

Belichick wants the odds to be in his favor both on the field and in the draft. You are advocating a strategy with a very low probability of success. See my reference above. Fear has nothing to do with it.

Do you understand that when Belichick went for it on 4th and 2, he was not "taking a swing," making a gutsy gamble. He was doing what a cold, hard calculation indicated gave him the best chance of winning?

 

[37Harrison]

I never said that anybody planned for Vrable, but they did have to make sure he was taken care of, 12 sacks is a pretty big number in the NFL and 2007 was the last time we even sniffed the Super Bowl, and the fact we lost it can be placed directly at the feet of your idea that QB pressure is just as important as putting the QB down. If we had a pass rusher in the game maybe he gets to Manning on fourth down.

I am still waiting for you to show me how pressure is better than sacks and how having 3 people with a total of 11.5 sacks is just as good as having one person with 12 sacks, even if a bunch came against bad competition.

You just pointed out the weakness of the team... the OL. The Giants sacked Brady 5 times that game and hurried/hit/knocked down numerous more times. Eli was sacked twice, A. Thomas forced a fumble which they were able to recover, and Eli was EXTREMELY lucky he got out of the Pats grasp on the final drive of the game, the pressure was there.

Ever since then the Pats OL hasn't been the same and coincidence??? Tom has suffered his most significant injuries since.

I do agree that an effective pass rushing OLB is a definite need for this team, I just believe that the OL is a bigger need.

BB has almost completely rebuilt this defense and is relying on the strength of the team (Brady & the O) to give them the best chance possible to succeed while the D learns through experience. The immediate future is TFB and the offense and that must be protected now or the chance of success drops dramatically with or without an effective/elite pass rusher.

I think that is reflected in BB's picks from this draft.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Everybody knows there's room for improvement at OLB.

The question is whether the cost of improving the position through the draft is worth the benefit you'd receive.

What would you have done, knowing that the cost of a high first round pick to get a guy like Aldon Smith is about a first, a second and a fourth?

Now that the 49ers have drafted Aldon Smith, I would think that they would let Manny Lawson go as a FA or a sign and trade. Fine with me, and you know that you are getting a newly trained, talented OLB that can play in the league.

I remember when I was expecting to take Manny Lawson, 6-5 245 4.5ish, who was just sitting there with our pick, and BB screwed me up and drafted some unknown Guard named Login Mankins...

For that matter Houston just drafted JJ Watt to go with Mario Williams in their new 3-4. Does that mean that another Patsfan binkie from another year of pining for an OLB, might be available? Corwin Barwin, 6-4 250 4.6ish, is now a newly trained OLB. Would he not be a fine pickup in a trade there?

Then there are the Giants. Would they trade damaged goods Mathias Kiwanuka 6-7 260 4.6ish, for damaged goods Nick Kaczur? They need an offensive lineman desperately, and Nick is a multi-time Super bowl starter. What about a sign and trade for Matt Light, instead? Toss in a late draft pick either way to make nice.

Matter of fact, I'll take two or three of them; and still have a premium draft with more than the normal quota of draft picks next season...

Would you think the OLB position had been adequately addressed?

Q.E.D.

 

[AzPatsFan]

The D will improve, but I question if it will be on the same level as the NYJ, Pitt and GB.

I believe the Pats played and beat everyone of these clubs in compiling a 14-2 record, despite all the injuries and youngsters

Sure. A greater ToP means less chances the opposing offense to score. But if you still can't stop teams on 3rd down and let up a bunch of points, it's irrelevant as you need to score quicker which takes you out of the running the football more.

When you don't have Ty Warrren, G Warren, Ron Brace, Brandon Deaderick, Mo Pryor and Mike Wright, its hard to stop a good club from consistently converting 3rd and shorts against you.

:bricks::bricks::bricks:

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I never said that anybody planned for Vrable, but they did have to make sure he was taken care of, 12 sacks is a pretty big number in the NFL and 2007 was the last time we even sniffed the Super Bowl, and the fact we lost it can be placed directly at the feet of your idea that QB pressure is just as important as putting the QB down. If we had a pass rusher in the game maybe he gets to Manning on fourth down.

I am still waiting for you to show me how pressure is better than sacks and how having 3 people with a total of 11.5 sacks is just as good as having one person with 12 sacks, even if a bunch came against bad competition.

Either you are an extremely bad writer or a not comprehending type of guy.

If you are going to talk about having guys that have to be game planned for, don't use Vrabel in the comment.

"If we had a pass rusher in the game maybe he gets to Manning on fourth down".

Huh? Did you bother to actually watch the game? Fourth down?

The game hinged on the the Tyree miracle catch. Go back and actually watch. There was tons of pressure. In fact, the official has admitted that he almost called Manning in the grasp because there was so much pressure.

The problem was the football was caught after the pass was thrown in duress from so much pressure.

Also, if you are interested in learning something, ya might want to review my post history. It has always been my wish we had personnel in our Dline rotation that can get pressure on the QB.

That's little to do with an "impact player" OLB or whatever the babble is

We have Wright/Pryor/ T Warren all coming back. Isn't it amazing not having three solid pressure guys play against the Jets meant less pressure

Gollyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeee.......

I can't wait till someone blames climate change on the lack of a pass rush.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I have to disagree, totally. The most pressing issue that the Patriots had to address in the draft was their pass rush, and they didn't. Their offensive line, in theory, was going to be fine with all starters returning. Their defensive backfield was going to be much better with the return on Bodden. Running back was going to be an issue, but BB must have thought that two OK backs will do what one very good back could have done.

The Patriots will win next season, and make the playoffs, but without a pass rush will lose again in the playoffs/

Bah!!! No rookie OLB is going to make a whit of difference. Maybe when he is a two or three year veteran, he might, but not in 2011...

I think BB has done a masterful job in finding veterans, many out of favor, and created a more than adequate Pass Rush.

Pfiefer, Vrabel, Colvin, Thomas, TBC, were reasonably successful and Burgess, helped for a season. The jury is out on Ninkovich. Only Chad Brown who was old and done, didn't. BB has mostly refrained from Drafting many high; and the results are mixed, Cunningham is progressing and Crabel didn't.

Of the end of draft, try out candidates, Pierre Wood made the team for a few years, Fletcher might help, and he lost a guy to the Cowboys, Craig???, who played for several years but never started for them.

I expect he will follow the same course he has been successful in doing.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I never thought we would go DE or DL I think we are ok there do we have a star ..no..but we are "solid".

I think everyone here saw the HUGE gaping hole at OLB. We dont have anyone that can opressure the QB at OLB on the roster. That was the big need wether it be a College 4-3DE converted (which many are and can be) but not a real 3-4 DE. Why this was not addresses I have no idea.

We all knew we needed OL help and we addressed that Im ok with it. The big need there was really a G in my opinion and we could have gone olb at 17 and then addressed gaurd and Im thinking Im not alone here.

RB was a need, I wanted Leshoure other guys wanted the kid from Bama. We took 2 of them which is a questionable move. I thought the need was greater for a Big back as we have pretty good options at 3rd down rb already sort of puzzling.

WR - Deep threat not addressed, I thought this was a minor need, maybve a flyer on a burner with a bevy of round 2 picks maybe the kid from MD was a fit.

QB nobody saw that coming, dont hate the move dont love it either, the kid hangs out with Jon Daly nuff said there....

I love CBs and you can never have to many so Im ok with that pick as well. I love Bodden and Mccourty so the rich got richer. I think the issue was our saftey play last year but maybe BB has other ideas there.

Again with no FA hard to guess what we might do there.

Sorry Dagg.

Ryan Mallett was introduced to Jon Daly by Gruden recently when he said Daly had the limelight cast on him for Daly's admitted Alcoholism, and he could give him some advice in handling the adverse media criticism.

He didn't know him and doesn't "hang out with him".

 

[AzPatsFan]

Green Bay's last two playoff games:

at Chi: 2 sacks, 6 QB hits, W 21-14
vs Pit: 0 sacks, 8 QB hits, W 31-25

Average game: 1 sack, 7 QB hits, 19.5 pts allowed.

They got decent pressure in the NFC Championship Game and the Super Bowl, but really nothing special. And yet they won a SB title.

I'm not suggesting a pass rush isn't important. I'm saying that you can win an individual playoff game without a stellar pass rush. Green Bay's pass rush in last year's SB wasn't stellar.

Moreover, the Pats *do* have a pretty decent pass rush, even without an individual stud pass rusher. They finished #14 in the NFL in sacks last year and, I think, #2 in the NFL in sacks the last half of the season. They don't have a bad pass rush. They just don't have a dominant one.

Excellent points.

Outside of one winning season in the past ten years, that did not result in a Lombardi, the Patriots have never dominated in the Pass Rush Sweepstakes. In their great years they managed to accumulate a total of around 40 or so, each season. This past season they ended up with "only" 36, better than 17 other teams and a majority of the league.

Getting this many, in spite of all the injuries on the Defensive line and while playing a pair of newcomers to starting at OLB for the Patriots and their system, is actually pretty encouraging.

Nor are those low totals unexpected. It is highly improbable for a Belichick Defense to lead in Sacks. You simply can't lead the league in sacks playing a read-and-react, contain, low risk, but fundamentally sound Defense. "Bend don't Break" doesn't lend itself to lots of all out Blitzes.

 

[Deus Irae]

Bah!!! No rookie OLB is going to make a whit of difference. Maybe when he is a two or three year veteran, he might, but not in 2011...

I think BB has done a masterful job in finding veterans, many out of favor, and created a more than adequate Pass Rush.

Pfiefer, Vrabel, Colvin, Thomas, TBC, were reasonably successful and Burgess, helped for a season. The jury is out on Ninkovich. Only Chad Brown who was old and done, didn't. BB has mostly refrained from Drafting many high; and the results are mixed, Cunningham is progressing and Crabel didn't.

Of the end of draft, try out candidates, Pierre Wood made the team for a few years, Fletcher might help, and he lost a guy to the Cowboys, Craig???, who played for several years but never started for them.

I expect he will follow the same course he has been successful in doing.

So you opposed the drafting of Cunningham, and feel that he didn't make a whit of difference last year, then?

 

[E Belichick Unum]

Bah!!! No rookie OLB is going to make a whit of difference. Maybe when he is a two or three year veteran, he might, but not in 2011...

I think BB has done a masterful job in finding veterans, many out of favor, and created a more than adequate Pass Rush.

Pfiefer, Vrabel, Colvin, Thomas, TBC, were reasonably successful and Burgess, helped for a season. The jury is out on Ninkovich. Only Chad Brown who was old and done, didn't. BB has mostly refrained from Drafting many high; and the results are mixed, Cunningham is progressing and Crabel didn't.

Of the end of draft, try out candidates, Pierre Wood made the team for a few years, Fletcher might help, and he lost a guy to the Cowboys, Craig???, who played for several years but never started for them.

I expect he will follow the same course he has been successful in doing.

Tell that to Dallas the year they drafted Ware, or San Diego the year they drafted Merriman or Green Bay the year they drafted Matthews. Why is it that when somebody asks the question, everybody runs to BB's defense? I am a big fan, but the guy has made some mistakes, and right not first amongst them is not having a pass rush.

Bill screwed up, you can suck his eggs all you want, but the pass rush sucks and not drafting a pass rushing linebacker high has killed the Patriots. By giving a QB .5 seconds less to look down field, games are won. Add a lack of pass rush with the smallest coaching staff in the league and a defensive coordinator who is in the middle of his OJT and you get 1 and done in the playoffs.

 

[AzPatsFan]

No denying last year was a magnificent Draft. I have my opinion on how he Drafts. I respect what everyone says but I am not to be swayed. No one cares what my opinion is or any of the others. Great coach. Drafts scared.
DW Toys

And he Drafts scared to win, which he does !!! Where are his mighty strikeouts, like Vernon Gholston or Duane whatizname both of whom the magnificent J-e-t-s Brain Drain, gave up half their Drafts to move up to get...

In all his decade of First Round picks, the only one who "failed" was Laurence Moroney. But he only played three average to mediocre seasons before being traded; he was not a Gholston total flameout.

The Jesters have peaked. You can't stay on Top long, getting only 6 young players in half a decade. The imports are getting unaffordable and old.

 

[Deus Irae]

Bah!!! No rookie OLB is going to make a whit of difference. Maybe when he is a two or three year veteran, he might, but not in 2011...

I think BB has done a masterful job in finding veterans, many out of favor, and created a more than adequate Pass Rush.

Pfiefer, Vrabel, Colvin, Thomas, TBC, were reasonably successful and Burgess, helped for a season. The jury is out on Ninkovich. Only Chad Brown who was old and done, didn't. BB has mostly refrained from Drafting many high; and the results are mixed, Cunningham is progressing and Crabel didn't.

Of the end of draft, try out candidates, Pierre Wood made the team for a few years, Fletcher might help, and he lost a guy to the Cowboys, Craig???, who played for several years but never started for them.

I expect he will follow the same course he has been successful in doing.

To follow up, you were singing a completely different tune last year:

BB has had to rebuild the Patriots. Many of the Stars of the superbowl clubs are in football retirement now. He is also doing it on the fly. The Pats Offense was the second rated Offense overall, so logically he put the emphasis on improving the young Defense. But note that the Defense accumulated more sacks than the Number 1 rated Defense. It just couldn't quite get off the field, against great offensive clubs, yielding many a short 3rd down conversion.

The Pats were barbecued by two phenomenal passing teams, the Colts and Saints. They were dismantled by the hard running Ravens in the playoffs. Is it any wonder that the picks in the first three rounds was a CB, a rush specialist SILB, and a SOLB run/pass combo rusher?

Perhaps you noticed that Ty Law, Teddy Bruschi and Mike Vrabel, stars from the Superbowl clubs are gone?