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Barking up the Wrong Tree...

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AzPatsFan, May 3, 2011.

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  1. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    I find it amazing how the Patriot Nation Fandom adopts a certain story line and then is upset when Bill Belichick, the ultimate realist and proponent of "...It is what it is..." refuses to go along.

    We managed to convince our selves that the Patriots biggest needs were a 5 technique DE to take Richard Seymours place; and a rush 3-4 ROLB. We were upset when Belichick viewed the needs differently.

    Consider that we have Four former First Round defensive linemen under contract for a 3 man line, and four more who have each found a niche that makes them uniquely valuable as situation substitution players.

    You can never have enough Richard Seymours; but why do you think picking at #17 would get you a once-in-a-decade Seymour? Seymour was chosen with the 6th overall pick. Vince Wilfork, Ty Warren, Gerard Warren and Marcus Stroud were all first round DLs. Brace, Deaderick, Wright, Pryor and Love all have proven their usefulness. What was so damn urgent about picking a 3-4 Defensive End, to the exclusion of all else?

    In the first 8 games of last season, playing lots of rookies and sophomores, the Pats Defense was giving up 23.5 ppg, and were dead last in sacking the QB. Over the last 8 games of the season, when they played 5 Playoff clubs including both the SB opponents, they gave up only 15.6 ppg. No Pats Super Bowl club yielded on average only 15.6 ppg. Over those last 8 games, the Pats sack rate was the second best in the league. So where is the overwhelming, desperate, urgent need for a pass rusher?

    BB studied the issue, saw the misrepresentation of looking at the annual stats only, and then looked elsewhere, to help his club.

    He saw an aging Offense with age and FA problems on the Offensive line. The Pats had found only one new O-line starter in 6 years. So he drafted a foundation LOT in Nate Solder 6-8 320, who is just coming into his own. Nate has even more of the rare athletic abilities than Sebastian Volmer does, who is a Probowler in his sophomore season. He also drafted a mountain of a man who was judged to be another LOT candidate, but realistically was headed to ROT or a Guard. Stephen Neal, the former All-American wrestler just retired at Right Guard. I cannot imagine a better replacement, if Herr Dr. Frankenstein was making one in his laboratory. Marcus Cannon does not resemble the typical lard-belly Guard. He has the size and athletic agility of Leonard Davis, who was a top 5 LOT pick of the Cards; and is now a permanent fixture in the massive Dallas Cowboy line.

    BB noted that he had more than 6 adequate Safeties but only 4 or 5 start-able CBs. So he added another potentially good CB. You need that many, when Teams play 4 and 5 receiver sets, these days.

    BB saw that his RB corps was aging too, and ready to retire. So he chose a pair of 1200 yards/year RBs, who both have the unique talent of NOT fumbling. Neither has ever fumbled, joining BJGE in that unusual ability, of both being a good runner and good receiver, yet not a fumbler.

    Finally, Belichick saw that he has been gambling carrying only two QBs, even if both are good, and one is a GOAT. When presented with a Gift Horse, a First Round, potential "Franchise QB" talent in the third round, he snapped him up. This is similar to the situation and rumors that caused Dan Marino to fall to Don Shula, only more so. Shula was confident in his coaching abilities, willing to take the effort and chance with Marino; Belichick is willing to do the same with Mallett.

    As far as I can see, Belichick exited this draft with the equivalent of having drafted perhaps four, 4, F-O-U-R, First Round talents in this draft, while simultaneously getting himself another First and Second Annuity next year too !!!!!


    I heartily concur with Sporting News in giving him a grade of A+.

  2. 37Harrison

    37Harrison Rookie

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    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    I was just reminiscing over last years draft and combine the two together you get:

    Devin McCourty
    Brandon Spikes
    Rob Gronkowski
    Aaron Hernandez
    Zoltan Mesko
    Jermaine Cunningham (ok so jury's still out on him but I thought he did a decent job last year)
    Brandon Deadrick
    Taylor Price (another that we haven't seen enough of yet but I think will be better than average)
    Nate Solder
    Ras-I Dowling
    Vereen
    Ridley
    Mallet

    We also got Deion Branch with a 2011 4th round pick.

    Just thought that if you laid it out in front of people it might give everyone a little more perspective.
  3. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    Put another way, in 2012 the Pats will still be able to field a team with 16 starters (Vereen, Tate, Price, Hernandez, Gronk, Solder, Cannon, Vollmer, Brace, Cunningham, Spikes, Mayo, McCourty, Dowling, Chung, Mesko) and 6 key reserves (Ridley, Edelperson, Pryor, Deaderick, Fletcher, Butler) all on their rookie contracts. That isn't even including the 2012 draft where the Pats will add another 4 or so.
  4. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    BJGE is a good receiver?
  5. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    You can never have too many good CB's is a face value statement.

    You can't draft a replacement for Richard Seymour if no Richard Seymour is available. The real purpose of scouting is to eliminate bad players vs finding good players.

    QB's trump every other position. Therefore, in football, you have franchise QB's and franchise left tackles. The only other equvalent is a shutdown CB.

    Abjective positions get that way for a reason.
  6. borg

    borg Rookie

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    These dividend picks are a luxory, allowing Belichick to field a team that can exploit and/or matchup with teams in a manner most other teams can't.
    In 2010, he grabbed two TEs....Gronk being the traditional big target, seam receiver...Hernandez the mismatch conundrum for D coordinators. When other GMs address a hole they make their one pick and move on.
    This year, BB attacked the RB position, doubling picks again with differing skill sets. Huge upgrades considering the zero production of Morris and Taylor.
    Now DB....yearly #2s (or higher)...this year grabbing a CB with size. Considering NFL #1 WRs are tall and athletic, BB finally has a tool to match a specific skill set. My nightmares include big WRs outleaping Ellis Hobbs in the corners of endzones. Hopefully I can now sleep at night. It's a passing league, 20% of a team's roster is in the secondary, one to two picks per year is almost a necessity.
    The next question will be....what position grouping will BB target next year? S, DL, Interior OL.....OLB (probably not in our life time)?
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
  7. Don_the_patfan

    Don_the_patfan Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    There is a point being missed in this thread. No one has a problem with the OT picked at #17. I certainly don't have a problem with getting a corner at #33 either. You could have picked that and with all the ammunition we had much more and that is the point some are missing. Given that we need PLAY MAKERS let me repeat PLAY MAKERS not depth and there is a distinction there, at DE and OLB and we ignored those positions then one can easily see why fans would be puzzled by the decision to completely ignore those 2 play maker needs.

    To say that no player in this draft had a higher ceiling then TBC,NINK,STROUD, go down that line of depth you have you would be in denial. You cannot dispute this period. In the end what you have to ask yourself is: Will Wilkerson,Heyward,Sheard,Ayers,Reed be any good. Because if any of them turns out to be a Clay Matthew all over again......On the bright side you still have free agency. Go get Cullen Jenkins and Kiwanuka and call it a day.
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
  8. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    Playmakers.. if the QB is sitting on his ass the playmakers won't be making any plays. As the mantra goes it all starts in the trenches.
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
  9. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    You do realize this makes absolutely zero sense.

    You get this through faulty logic

    No playmakers? We led the league in points and turnovers.....yet we have no playmakers...Huh?

    Clay Matthews....this comes back again to pass rushers are a mental disease. For every Clay Matthews, the product of a superior secondary you have Aaron Maybin, Vernon Gholston, Jerry Hughes, Anthony Spencer, Brandon Graham, Robert Ayers, Derrick Morgan, Larry English.

    Yeah, with about a 99% bust rate on "pass rushers" nobody is in denial.

    Sorry but pass rushers are marginal against elite offenses. The past ten years have proved this. You are in denial if you think "elite pass rushers" take over the game against elite offenses.

    The problem in 2010 was the Patriots were too young. Experience counts. The Patriots are not the veteran team of the dynasty years. How exactly adding more youth and inexperience means "playmakes" is simply hard to fathom.

    BB drafted two RB's high. Isn't it completely obvious what he felt the problem was in the playoff game when it comes to not having "playmakers"?
  10. patfanken

    patfanken On the Roster

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    #91 Jersey

    I agree with the Play Makers theme, Don. I've just come to the conclusion that either trades couldn't be made to move up, or people they considered "play makers" were gone when it was their turn, OR maybe BB really thought that what they had on defense now were good enough that offensive needs trumped for getting one of the DE/OLB prospects that were there when they picked.

    That means for me, the only one of the top picks I can complain about is Mallet, and that's just because of the position he plays and the very real likelihood that he's not going to help the team on the field much, over the next 4 years. And even with THAT pick, who knows what BB has planned for him. Once they get back back on the field, he might up and trade him for a 2nd next season right away...or it may take a year. who knows. Maybe they trade Brady for a basket full of draft picks to the new LA franchise in 2 years and Mallet becomes a player

    Its all a mystery. But I have a theory. You can't separate the draft from FA when you are building a team. The pass rush iissue could radically change once that period has ended.

    Also I think that during the run up to the draft, we fans become too invested in our favorite binkys and perceptions of player's skills. We spend a lot of time thinking about what we would do if we were in control. Its a fan's wet dream. The problem is that the "lot of time" we spend is about 1% of the time the pros take (10% for guys like Box, Dryheat, etc ;) ) looking at these prospects. So when the draft arrives and we find out that OUR plans don't match up with BB's, its only natural that we get pissed, to various degrees. We all saw my first reaction....and it wasn't pretty.

    I'm pretty confident now that regardless of what happens in FA, the defense will be better this year, and the pass rush will be better this year....as a team Now whether its a big enough improvement to take us to the next level during the playoffs remains to be seen. (BTW it should be noted that there were 17 teams in the league last season who had FEWER sacks than the Pats)
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
  11. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    BTW

    With an extra 1st/2nd, the patriots have more than enough ammo to go get a playmaker.

    The reality is, an immediate playmaker should be an established, experienced player.
  12. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You can't say if any of them turn out to be good, because we only could have drafted 1. To expect that if one works out we should have known is to ignore the history of the NFL draft.
  13. Don_the_patfan

    Don_the_patfan Rookie

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    Faulty logic if you dont read. I never stated we DONT have play makers period. I said I dont see a play maker in the group of Stroud, Deadrick, LOVE, TBC and Ninkovich. And I also stated I feel in the draft we had an opportunity to get someone with a higher ceiling in the draft. Where is the fault in that logic?

    Right so we should stay away from picking OLB in the draft because we are afraid to pick? Is that what you are saying? Also what you seem to be saying is that we don't need a player of that caliber at DE and OLB. Got it that makes total sense.

    How was the youth and inexperience of Mathews? Don't you think his youth and inexperience helped the Green bay packers defense. You are avoiding talking about whom you have starting for this team at OLB, Ninko and TBC and even at one spot at DE which is a bunch of depth players. Unless you are saying TBC and Ninko are too young and somehow they will improve.

    What does that have to do with my point of play makers at OLB where the is room for improvement since you will have to start either TBC or NInko on one side. Are you comfortable with that? Don't you feel there is room for improvement there?

    Come on now you want to address how you see we will improve at those positions fine but don't give me unorganized thoughts.
  14. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    On a side note, I love the logic is that some have that "We traded away Richard Seymour and all we got was a tackle". Boy have times changed. Back in Orlando Pace's and Walter Jones' primes, getting a dominant LT was the Holy Grail besides getting an elite QB. More so than anyone on defense. Now people think trading away an elite DE who was on the decline and looking to be the highest paid d-lineman the next year for what could become an elite LT is blown trade for the Pats even if Solder exceeds his potential and becomes the most dominant LT in the league.

    I thought before the draft and I still think that a pass rushing OLB is the top need for this team. I will be satisfied if the Pats fill that need in free agency because anyone they drafted in the second round would likely take a year or two to convert to the position and that process will be hindered.
  15. Shelterdog

    Shelterdog Rookie

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    Everybody knows there's room for improvement at OLB.

    The question is whether the cost of improving the position through the draft is worth the benefit you'd receive.

    What would you have done, knowing that the cost of a high first round pick to get a guy like Aldon Smith is about a first, a second and a fourth?
  16. Don_the_patfan

    Don_the_patfan Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Yes but we didn't even try. Also point I was trying to make is that from that group there will be at least 1 or more that will make the team that picked them better there will be a play maker there(at the very least someone with a higher ceiling then the players I mentioned) so you CANNOT say that there was no one there that was better then what we have. Especially when talking about TBC and Ninko. I would at least try to improve there.
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
  17. Clonamery

    Clonamery PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    ...and that he probably can't play in your system.
  18. Don_the_patfan

    Don_the_patfan Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Again please read my original post. All the players I mentioned were on the board from pick 28 on to the first 10 picks in the second round. Nowhere in the post did I mention we needed to move up in the first. Also nowhere in my original post did I say I was not happy with whom we got in Solder or Ras-I. I wanted them to either pick someone at #28 or move up in the first 10 picks of the 2nd round to get one of the players I mentioned. We had the ammunition and we STILL do have the need.
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
  19. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    PERHAPS THE BEST POST OF THE YEAR AND MOST INTELLIGENT!
    BRAVO COUSIN!

    DW toys
  20. JoeShmoe

    JoeShmoe Rookie

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    There were quite a few of us who never saw the need for DE and suggested OL was the way to go

    With Warren, Wilfork, Stroud and Brace we have big bodies on the line. Youve got Wright and Moore to play on pass downs. Youve got a good young corps of Pryor, Love, Deaderick etc

    OLB is more of a concern but theres always FA
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