Caldwell vs. Givens

[shmessy]

I guess this is what it comes down to. Assuming Givens and Branch are both re-uped for fair $$?

I take Branch, Givens (non-injured) and Jackson every time.

Heck - there's nothing stopping us from picking up Gaffney, Caldwell, or even trading for Gabriel - but for arguments sake, let's say none of that ever happens.

A solid #1, a solid #2 - various free agents + Troy to round out the depth, plus a Chad Jackson, from whom I'm not even expecting a lot out of in his rookie year?

That's a SOLID WR corps for right now and well into the future. Seattle can keep their #1. I'll take that deal every time in terms of the football talent. MUCH better than what we have right now.

Now, before someone goes off about unreasonable salary demands from Branch and Givens - if we're talking about football talent - there is just no question which way you go.

I'm sorry, I thought this discussion was based on NFL reality, I did not see that it was a no-money bartered Fantasy Football League.

In the real world any GM would blush at the STEAL Belioli have pulled off regarding Deion Branch. The Pats get a #1 pick (Branch as the 17th-25th best at his position in the league is not worth that) who will take up less than 1/2 the cap hit Branch does for the next 5 years.

Caldwell (in my opinion) has so far played Givens in his best season here to a standoff for 1/5 the cap hit plus the Pats get to extend Koppen and get at least a 5th rounder next year as comp.

Now, if you want to be throwing talent without regard to salary and reality into the argument, why not say we would be better off with Steve Smith and Chad Johnson on our team also? At some point it becomes meaningless.

In the meantime, please tell me exactly WHAT Givens did in his BEST season with Brady that Caldwell is not doing right now.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Now, if you want to be throwing talent without regard to salary and reality into the argument, why not say we would be better off with Steve Smith and Chad Johnson on our team also? At some point it becomes meaningless.

Exactly, I mean if I had a choice between Givens, Caldwell, Reggie Wayne and Torry Holt all for the same price -- I think I'd take Holt.

 

[patsox23]

In the meantime, please tell me exactly WHAT Givens did in his BEST season with Brady that Caldwell is not doing right now.

EXCELLENT point.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I'm sorry, I thought this discussion was based on NFL reality, I did not see that it was a no-money bartered Fantasy Football League.

Apology accepted. FINALLY someone who recognizes that we're talking about football talent only - specifically comparing Givens and Caldwell

rofl: and how did talk about Holt and other WRs work in here? Is someone now saying that THEY are better than Caldwell??? Maybe Caldwell is even better than Jerry Rice in his prime??)

If someone feels that Caldwell really IS better than Givens had been for us, I guess they have a right to that opinion - but I have a feeling they're probably looking only at the last few games.

But seemingly everyone just can't or won't look beyond the reality that, while
Caldwell presents by far the better salary cap value, Givens is a better WR.

I'm not so sure that I'd agree with DaBruinz that half of all the GMs would take Givens over Caldwell even with Givens earning 5x as much - but I do think that nearly ALL of them would take Givens over Caldwell if they were both earning $1 million, as Givens is the better talent and has the better proven performance.

Still some people have odd opinions so you never know. I'd have been estatic to have Branch, Givens and Jackson as our long term WR corps if they had all been more reasonable in their salary demands.

Unfortuately they weren't but of course, no one is going to convince me that Gabriel, Caldwell and Jackson are collectively BETTER than Branch, Givens and Jackson.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Let Caldwell finish the season and then we'll compare him to Givens' best year.
I think I know how it will turn out.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Let Caldwell finish the season and then we'll compare him to Givens' best year.
I think I know how it will turn out.

Fair enough - I think half my battle in this thread was just to try to help people undestand the concept that you actually CAN comment on football talent without talking about football salaries.

In fact you HAVE to take salary out of the equation to discuss football talent.

Otherwise that would be like saying Caldwell is a better WR than Reggie Wayne because Wayne earns so much more.

Of course that type of statement woudl be idiotic - but if one wants to talk about value compared to salary, that's another matter.

 

[ilduce06410]

EXCELLENT point.

let's look at the '05 WR receiving corps, using dead money and probable 2006 cap figures:
'05 -- branch ($2.5m), givens ($2.5m), brown ($1.2m), davis ($500K), childress ($300K), bethel johnson ($500K), david terrell ($500K), pk sam ($200K) total: $8.2m.

'06, including dead money: -- brown ($1.2m), caldwell ($900K), gabriel ($800K), gaffney ($500K), pksam ($200K), shelton ($300K), jackson ($800k), childress ($300K), branch ($200K), total: $5.2m.

now, which would you rather have:
the cap figure for the '05 roster, with projected '06 salaries, at $8.2m,
or the actual cap figure for the '06 roster, at $5.2m?

 

[JoeSixPat]

let's look at the '05 WR receiving corps, using dead money and probable 2006 cap figures:
'05 -- branch ($2.5m), givens ($2.5m), brown ($1.2m), davis ($500K), childress ($300K), bethel johnson ($500K), david terrell ($500K), pk sam ($200K) total: $8.2m.

'06, including dead money: -- brown ($1.2m), caldwell ($900K), gabriel ($800K), gaffney ($500K), pksam ($200K), shelton ($300K), jackson ($800k), childress ($300K), branch ($200K), total: $5.2m.

now, which would you rather have:
the cap figure for the '05 roster, with projected '06 salaries, at $8.2m,
or the actual cap figure for the '06 roster, at $5.2m?

OK - so we're not talking about just football talent in this case - as Branch and Givens are CLEARLY a better duo than Caldwell & Whoever you want.

So for just $3 million more a season to have Givens and Branch on the squad? ABSOLUTELY I take that in a heartbeat. Who doesn't? It's not like we don't have AMPLE cap space either.

I'm not sure I see the point of this post.

From my standpoint its the players that win you games. The $available cap space we have of as of today isn't helping us win too many games that I can see

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

From my standpoint its the players that win you games. The $available cap space we have of as of today isn't helping us win too many games that I can see

So please clarify -- would you pay Givens the deal he got from TEN and the deal Branch got from SEA?

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

With 8 catches and 112 yards, that would put Caldwell at 44 catches and 574 yards, 3 TD and a 13 yard average. He should be on mark to meet or beat Givens production this year.

 

[BelichickFan]

With 8 catches and 112 yards, that would put Caldwell at 44 catches and 574 yards, 3 TD and a 13 yard average. He should be on mark to meet or beat Givens production this year.

Not to mention that Caldwell carried Brady today with several catches on passes dive bombing into the ground.

 

[Kdo5]

I really am believing now that Reche deserves to be our #1 reciever. Another great day.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Actually I was wrong 38 + 8 = 46 catches, not 44

 

[VJCPatriot]

David Givens
2006 Tennessee Titans 8 catches 104 yards 13.0 avg 0 Tds
Salary ~ $4,800,000 per year

Reche Caldwell
2006 New England Patriots 46 catches 574 yards 12.5 avg 3Tds
Salary $585,000 per year

Humm who's the better bargain again?

 

[BradyManny]

Though for various reasons a Caldwell - Givens comparison seems more fitting (size, number, catches for 1st downs), Reche has progressed to the point where I think he warrants a Branch comparison. He's getting open on a regular basis just like Deion did and has become Brady's favorite target.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Though for various reasons a Caldwell - Givens comparison seems more fitting (size, number, catches for 1st downs), Reche has progressed to the point where I think he warrants a Branch comparison. He's getting open on a regular basis just like Deion did and has become Brady's favorite target.

Well to be fair I think we should compare Branch to his 1st round replacement.

Comparing Caldwell to Givens is fair because one was a free agent outgoing and the other is free agent replacement. Seems like the Pats won that transaction so far. On the branch one we need to see who the pick becomes.

PS Will we also get a comp pick for losing Givens to free agency? That would make the Caldwell pickup an even bigger win.

 

[BelichickFan]

PS Will we also get a comp pick for losing Givens to free agency? That would make the Caldwell pickup an even bigger win.

We should get a #5 for him. Thankfully the compensation is based mostly on the contract not on the production. Otherwise Givens' 8 catches wouldn't get us much

 

[shmessy]

Great game yesterday, Reche!

 

[JoeSixPat]

Great game yesterday, Reche!

Absolutely. I'm more than happy to give credit where its due - even if it is against the Lions he still looked crisp and confident.

A far cry from earlier this season when his routes were just awful (and for anyone who still disputes that, then you probably missed Brady commenting this morning talking about Caldwell early in the season when "he just didn't know where he was supposed to be" when running routes.)

... and the first 100 yard game of his career too! Tremendous

If Caldwell keeps this up aginst tougher competition there's no question I'll be eating my words about Givens being a better WR, even if Givens still has more big games under his belt.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

With the twenty ----- selection in the NFL draft the new England Patriots select Andre Caldwell.