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Jim Leonhard out for jets


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I think you are seriously misreading what he means to that defense, certainly Tedy Bruschi disagrees with you.

OK....an NFL player got hurt. Should we hold a press conference from his hospital bed? I'd certainly like to have Ty Warren for this match up.....Part of the game. .. Get over it. :confused:
 
So the Jets have lost one little old defender. So what!
They're a dynasty in the making with a great coach and a great QB and a great CB and the best D in football.
At least that's what the mediots say.... ;)
I felt the Patriots would win comfortably on Monday night before hearing this news.
Sleep tight Pats fans. :D
 
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OK....an NFL player got hurt. Should we hold a press conference from his hospital bed? I'd certainly like to have Ty Warren for this match up.....Part of the game. .. Get over it. :confused:

Bodden would be huge here. A little concerned about who matches up with Edwards & Holmes.
 
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OK....an NFL player got hurt. Should we hold a press conference from his hospital bed? I'd certainly like to have Ty Warren for this match up.....Part of the game. .. Get over it. :confused:

Not the end of the world, but football people have pointed out that it is a big thing when the signal caller for your secondary is taken out of the equation 3 days before a game and AFTER a gameplan has been installed. The timing of it makes it more of a factor.

Not the end of the world, but not insignificant either. The Ty Warren pre-season IR analogy is an epic fail.
 
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Originally Posted by Metaphors
Jim Leonhard is the Jets' equivalent of James Sanders. Would any non-Pats fans even notice if Sanders was lost for the year?

What???????

Yeah, I think you would "notice" if Peyton Manning led the Colts to a last minute victory a couple of weeks back and the Patriots were 8-3 instead of 9-2.

Not a bad pick-6 in the Pittsburgh game either.

No need to denigrate Sanders, whom BB signed to a multi-year contract and values greatly and whom, AS A ROOKIE, Rodney Harrison singled out for praise when asked who on the D he admired as someone who "gets" the Patriots system.

Not trying to take away what Sanders has done fro this team this season. But 1 guy on the D is not going to make a big deal in this upcoming game. If Sanchez was out that would be a different story. People make way to much of a deal over the injury report when picking games or betting. All those players out for the Colts and they were 1 bad play away from winning the game.
 
I think you are seriously misreading what he means to that defense, certainly Tedy Bruschi disagrees with you.

Bruschi said:
I really like safety Jim Leonhard. I see him as the glue that keeps it all together back there. He's a great special teams player and on defense, he knows Rex Ryan's system inside and out. Rex brought him over from Baltimore and he keeps everyone on the same page and has made big plays for them.

I obviously don't know what Leonhard means to that defense. Only the people on that defense know. However, we can look at this from a couple of angles:

1) Defensive Production

Is he great at coming up in run support? No. He is a high effort guy but doesn't have the mass. He runs around blocks and makes a lot of tackles downfield. He has gotten better at actually getting runners to the ground instead of just slowing them down until someone can finish them off.

Is he great at coverage? No. He is solid at coming up to defend checkdowns and screens (the single biggest impact in my mind for the Pats game). If he is downfield in coverage it is likely a mismatch.

2) Special Teams Production

I can't believe this point even has to be argued. He has shown more reliable hands this year, but he is hardly a major threat on punt returns. I remember 2 good returns opening weekend because it was killing me how the Ravens punter outkicked his coverage. In the games I've seen since, I can't remember a time when it looked like he would break one (certainly not in the earlier Pats game). I obviously haven't seen all of his returns but he has looked very ordinary.

3) Leadership

Impossible to know outside that locker room and hard to quantify. I compared him to James Sanders in his ability to direct the secondary and it seemed to approximate his defensive production (per snap since Sanders isn't alway full-time). Since then people have compared him to Rodney (which is beyond silly) and Meriweather (no where near his coverage skills).

I can only assume this was done because people believe his presence is critical to keeping the defense together...like Rodney in 2004. That may be, but my question is why is that level of coordination needed for this defense? He knows Ryan's defense by heart? Shouldn't they all by this point. They are all veterans and Scott came over from Baltimore as well. Three linebackers are over 30 and the other is supposedly a top ILB in his 4th year. Even the DL (with younger players but still with a couple years experience) has Ellis to provide leadership.

If losing Leonhard throws this Jets team off to any significant degree, that is an indictment of their team building. I don't think that will be the case. I can see 2 real impacts to watch for:

1) Ability to cover screens/checkdowns. That seemed to be his niche so we will have to see how the Jets approach defending those plays.

2) Coverage on STs. The Jets key guys on kick coverage will now be getting a lot more snaps in the regular defense. You would think they could handle both but that isn't always the case.

I think the Jets can overcome both of these. Again, I feel really bad for Leonhard going down right before their biggest regular season game in a long time. The Jets? Not so much. Next man in.
 
What???????

Yeah, I think you would "notice" if Peyton Manning led the Colts to a last minute victory a couple of weeks back and the Patriots were 8-3 instead of 9-2.

Not a bad pick-6 in the Pittsburgh game either.

No need to denigrate Sanders, whom BB signed to a multi-year contract and values greatly and whom, AS A ROOKIE, Rodney Harrison singled out for praise when asked who on the D he admired as someone who "gets" the Patriots system.

I didn't compare him to Sanders because I thought he was a slug. I compared him because they have a similar level of production and the ability to direct the secondary (as Sanders demonstrated last year). It was actually meant to be a compliment (though a guarded one) to both players.
 
1) Defensive Production

Is he great at coming up in run support? No. He is a high effort guy but doesn't have the mass. He runs around blocks and makes a lot of tackles downfield. He has gotten better at actually getting runners to the ground instead of just slowing them down until someone can finish them off.

Is he great at coverage? No. He is solid at coming up to defend checkdowns and screens (the single biggest impact in my mind for the Pats game). If he is downfield in coverage it is likely a mismatch.

I don't understand a lot of your observations on Leonhard. Regarding run support, it's actually one of the things he's quite good at. There were times he missed tackles last season, but remember he had a broken thumb and played with a cast. He was tackling with one arm and whatever part of his body he could use at times. He consistently takes good angles to the ball, and was tied for third on the team in tackles. He knows how to find his way to where the ball is for a team with one of the best run defenses in the league.

As for coverage, I think you're off base. There aren't many safeties that are good in down-field coverage. If they were, they'd probably be corners. Chung is pretty good in coverage for a safety, but even against an undrafted rookie free agent like Blair White, he'll get consistently burned. Leonhard does a decent enough job on the short stuff, and has a reputation as a real hard hitter back there despite his size. He shouldn't be covering a lot of guys deep very frequently, just like most safeties don't.

2) Special Teams Production

I can't believe this point even has to be argued. He has shown more reliable hands this year, but he is hardly a major threat on punt returns. I remember 2 good returns opening weekend because it was killing me how the Ravens punter outkicked his coverage. In the games I've seen since, I can't remember a time when it looked like he would break one (certainly not in the earlier Pats game). I obviously haven't seen all of his returns but he has looked very ordinary.

Again, I have no idea where you get this from. He's always been a good punt returner, even in college where he set the Big 10 career record (though he's no longer the record-holder).

If you look at guys with at least 1 punt return per game, he's in the top 10 with a healthy 11.3 average. That's better than every Patriot except Edelman, and almost 4 yards better than the other Jet returner (Wilson).

While his longest return has only been 32 yards, 4 of his 21 returns have gone for 20+ yards, tied for 2nd-most in that category behind only Devin Hester's 6. He may not be scoring touchdowns for them, but he has given them good field position consistently and broken solid returns at a higher rate than most returners, plus he has a long history of being a good returner.

3) Leadership

Impossible to know outside that locker room and hard to quantify. I compared him to James Sanders in his ability to direct the secondary and it seemed to approximate his defensive production (per snap since Sanders isn't alway full-time). Since then people have compared him to Rodney (which is beyond silly) and Meriweather (no where near his coverage skills).

I can only assume this was done because people believe his presence is critical to keeping the defense together...like Rodney in 2004. That may be, but my question is why is that level of coordination needed for this defense? He knows Ryan's defense by heart? Shouldn't they all by this point. They are all veterans and Scott came over from Baltimore as well. Three linebackers are over 30 and the other is supposedly a top ILB in his 4th year. Even the DL (with younger players but still with a couple years experience) has Ellis to provide leadership.

You're saying his leadership is impossible to know outside of the locker room and hard to quantify, but then you go on to downplay it anyways. In this instance, I'd just refer to the Jets players and coaches, who all call it a huge loss.

If losing Leonhard throws this Jets team off to any significant degree, that is an indictment of their team building.

The guy behind him is obviously less talented. It's natural to expect an adjustment period as well, and that you won't be able to do all of the things you want to do. Polamalu's injury last year is another example of how an injury can change what a defense is capable of, and it's hardly an indictment of their team that they don't have another Pro Bowl safety stashed away.

Someone else will get time, get an opportunity, and maybe make some plays. But it definitely limits them in some ways and changes some of the things they can do. We won't know the full impact of it for a few weeks, and neither will the Jets as they try to adjust.

As for Leonhard, he is a really under-rated player in the league, but not to the Jets. You hate to see anyone get injured and I hope he gets better. I think Rex will want him back next year unlike the way things went with Leon Washington this year.
 
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The Impact of Jim Leonhard's Injury - NYTimes.com

Interview with Jets’ defensive coordinator, Mike Pettine on the subject
I don’t think people realize what a vital part of our room Jim Leonhard is, so that is what makes it more difficult.

On-the-field, a lot of people do realize what an important part he was, he really did quarterback the back end. He was a big part of helping guys get lined up and he was usually a guy that was in the right place at the right time doing his job.

I think it’s between Eric Smith, James Ihedigbo, Kyle Wilson, Dwight Lowery, I think between all of them, we will kind of absorb the roles that Jim Leonhard would have played for us.
 
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Without Sanders, the Patriots defense crapped the bed last year and had to go completely basic. If that's what Leonhard's absence does to the Jets, you can mark this down as a Patriots victory right now.
 
Great.. Here comes the "Jets have been battled by a loss of players this year"

Lets see who the patriots have lost...


Moss
Maroney
Warren
Faulk
Bodden
Neal
Mankins(most of year)
Taylor
Ghostowski

i doubt most jets fans will freak out.

kris jenkins
jimmy leonhard

and lost revis, pace, holmes(suspension his fault) cotchery, and a few STers here, and there.

If people want to talk how the Jets are lucky..they should mention they are VERY lucky to hardly have any injuries.


Way off on that one. Leonhard is the Rodney Harrison of that Jets defense. He's one of the leaders. If not THE leader. His loss is a pretty big one for the Jets, but they'll manage in the long run. If anything, it will hurt the most for this game.

Tough loss. I don't like the team he plays for but I respect Leonhard as a competitor. He brings it on every play. Hope he heals up without issue.

this 100%. When Rex Ryan came to NY, and brought Bart, and Leonhard. It was Leonhard/Scott who taught the Jets players how to play Rex's Defense from a 'player perspective'. When it's football season all he does is football, and encourages his teammates to do the same all the time.

Sucks he is gone, but the jets will manage.
 
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Without Sanders, the Patriots defense crapped the bed last year and had to go completely basic. If that's what Leonhard's absence does to the Jets, you can mark this down as a Patriots victory right now.

Easy, Deus. This Jets squad is a pretty resilient bunch.
 
Easy, Deus. This Jets squad is a pretty resilient bunch.

:confused:

I wasn't the one who cracked out the Sanders analogy. I just noted the impact of him sitting the bench last season.
 
:confused:

I wasn't the one who cracked out the Sanders analogy. I just noted the impact of him sitting the bench last season.

I re-read the exchange. Didn't mean to jump down your throat. Thought you were drinkin' too much Kool-aide for a second. :p
 
I don't understand a lot of your observations on Leonhard. Regarding run support, it's actually one of the things he's quite good at. There were times he missed tackles last season, but remember he had a broken thumb and played with a cast. He was tackling with one arm and whatever part of his body he could use at times. He consistently takes good angles to the ball, and was tied for third on the team in tackles. He knows how to find his way to where the ball is for a team with one of the best run defenses in the league.

He must be all-world in the games I've missed but he is nothing like you describe in games I've seen. Guess we just have different eyes when looking at him.

As for coverage, I think you're off base. There aren't many safeties that are good in down-field coverage. If they were, they'd probably be corners. Chung is pretty good in coverage for a safety, but even against an undrafted rookie free agent like Blair White, he'll get consistently burned. Leonhard does a decent enough job on the short stuff, and has a reputation as a real hard hitter back there despite his size. He shouldn't be covering a lot of guys deep very frequently, just like most safeties don't.

I guess my expectations of what a safety needs to do in coverage is higher than yours.

Again, I have no idea where you get this from. He's always been a good punt returner, even in college where he set the Big 10 career record (though he's no longer the record-holder).

Nothing wrong with Leonhard as a returner...he just isn't a threat that you need to gameplan against. He has reliable hands, doesn't take many chances, gets yards quickly when the punter outkicks the coverage.

You're saying his leadership is impossible to know outside of the locker room and hard to quantify, but then you go on to downplay it anyways. In this instance, I'd just refer to the Jets players and coaches, who all call it a huge loss.

Didn't downplay leadership in general or Leonhard's leadership in particular. I downplayed the effect of losing the leadership of a guy in his 4th year as a starter on a defense loaded with veterans. Put him on the Pats this year and I think it is fair to comment on losing a veteran presence. On a team with Revis, Cromartie, Pool plus a bunch of 30 yo linebackers...not so much.

The guy behind him is obviously less talented. It's natural to expect an adjustment period as well, and that you won't be able to do all of the things you want to do. Polamalu's injury last year is another example of how an injury can change what a defense is capable of, and it's hardly an indictment of their team that they don't have another Pro Bowl safety stashed away.

Losing Polamalu is huge to the Steelers because their secondary is weak and Polamalu is an absolute stud in run support and pass coverage. Neither of those things apply to the Jets/Leonhard situation.

Leonhard is a nice player. That doesn't make him Rodney or Meriweather or Polamalu or any other Pro Bowl safety you want to trot out. There is a huge area between garbage and game-changing talent. Leonhard has a long-time residence in that area. He does some things well, few things poorly and a whole bunch of stuff good enough to be effective on that Jets defense. That is a description of a player that championship teams need to be able to replace without suffering much. The Jets should be able do just that.
 
He must be all-world in the games I've missed but he is nothing like you describe in games I've seen. Guess we just have different eyes when looking at him.

He's certainly not the best run-stopping safety in the game, but he's above average in my opinion. He certainly benefits from Revis being able to blanket guys, so he's able to spend more time in the box. But in Baltimore and NY, he's been solid in the run game. I think Eric Smith is a bit better but that doesn't make Leonhard bad.

I guess my expectations of what a safety needs to do in coverage is higher than yours.

I don't want to argue that he's exceptional in this area, simply that for a strong safety, he's fine.

Nothing wrong with Leonhard as a returner...he just isn't a threat that you need to gameplan against. He has reliable hands, doesn't take many chances, gets yards quickly when the punter outkicks the coverage.

Maybe he's not a huge threat that teams fear, but he's a top-10 punt returner in this league according to the stats. He doesn't have a TD on a punt return, but then again, only 5 returners do.

Didn't downplay leadership in general or Leonhard's leadership in particular. I downplayed the effect of losing the leadership of a guy in his 4th year as a starter on a defense loaded with veterans. Put him on the Pats this year and I think it is fair to comment on losing a veteran presence. On a team with Revis, Cromartie, Pool plus a bunch of 30 yo linebackers...not so much.

There are some veterans back there in the secondary, but bear in mind that Cromartie and Pool haven't played in Rex's defense before, so this is their first year. The coaches all point to how important he was in lining everyone up so again, I'll defer to them.

Losing Polamalu is huge to the Steelers because their secondary is weak and Polamalu is an absolute stud in run support and pass coverage. Neither of those things apply to the Jets/Leonhard situation.

I'm just saying it's hardly an indictment if a team has to change and isn't as effective after losing a starting player to injury.

Leonhard is a nice player. That doesn't make him Rodney or Meriweather or Polamalu or any other Pro Bowl safety you want to trot out. There is a huge area between garbage and game-changing talent. Leonhard has a long-time residence in that area. He does some things well, few things poorly and a whole bunch of stuff good enough to be effective on that Jets defense. That is a description of a player that championship teams need to be able to replace without suffering much. The Jets should be able do just that.

I'm not suggesting he's a Pro Bowler, but he's much more important to that defense than I think you realize or give credit for. It's similar to how James Sanders helped stabilize our defense at times last season, the contributions were more than just what appeared in the game stats.
 
dont think they will miss him as much on defense than on STeams.
 
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