Report: Bill wanted to trade Mac before season

[Ian]

The past two years, especially this past year, you can definitely argue it was one of the worst ever QB play we've ever seen in history of the game. That's not hyperbole. It was that bad.

Again, that's a stretch, but I hear you. You can say that about this season, for sure. But I wouldn't even put 2022 into that category. There were - and have been - way worse quarterbacks. Mac fell in the middle last year.

This year? That's another story. Although he started off with two solid games in 2023:



But it completley fell apart from there:

 

[upstater1]

zappe didn’t look as shell shocked but he didn’t exactly look too much better

59% completion percentage, 6tds and 9 picks for a qbr of 23.3

Mac

64% 10tds 12 picks and a QBR of 36.5

I look outside the numbers. Movement in the pocket, command of the offense, making the right decisions. Zappe has a substandard arm, and he actually is greatly behind Mac Jones when it comes to accuracy.

Numbers never tell a good story for me. I can give a couple of examples, such as Mac's 2nd and 3rd game this year. Pretty decent numbers in the second game, pretty pedestrian or subpar numbers in the 3rd game. Yet he played really badly in the second by missing opportunity after opportunity back there, and he played really well in the 3rd game where he actually stood in the pocket for once, almost fearlessly, almost like it wasn't Mac, and he made critical plays when they needed to be made. You look at the numbers and they tell and entirely different story.

Numbers are interesting over a longer time, like a couple seasons, but even then they don't tell you about the strength of your division or the weather you play in.

 

[upstater1]

Again, that's a stretch, but I hear you. You can say that about this season, for sure. But I wouldn't even put 2022 into that category. There were - and have been - way worse quarterbacks. Mac fell in the middle last year.

This year? That's another story. Although he started off with two solid games in 2023:

View attachment 56065

But it completley fell apart from there:
View attachment 56067
View attachment 56068

Huh. I thought he was really bad in the Phins game. Man, seems I just can't look at numbers like this.

 

[upstater1]

I think the bolded part is a little extreme. You can't look at his first NFL season and then say he's one of the worst ever. Way worse names far lower down the list have come through this league who never had any great moments and were just horrific. Mac at least had some good moments in his rookie year and even last season at times, but just happened to fall off a cliff in spectacular fashion this year.

So really bad? Yes. Worst ever? He's not on that list ... yet.

Should say worst starting QB I can remember seeing.

Excluding guys who are normally backups. I went down a list and would take a ton of starters who were bad.

I'm not sold on that "rookie season" either. Really bad QBs can manage several games in the NFL even when they are putrid. Remember the season Case Keenum had a few years ago? You see him the next years and he's really bad.

I can name one starter I think is worse than Mac: Curtis Painter.

But other than him, I can't think of worse going back 20 years, unless we're including Zach Wilson. You look at Mark Sanchez in his 2nd and 3rd years, and he was better.

 

[lancerman]

The past two years, especially this past year, you can definitely argue it was one of the worst ever QB play we've ever seen in history of the game. That's not hyperbole. It was that bad.

Now that is hyperbole. Mac isn't even the worst of his draft class. Zach Wilson sucking more is literally the only reason we beat the Jets the last few years. Lance can't even get a starting job. Zappe frankly was basically the exact same as Mac. Nobody was frankly even close to as bad as Peterman level. Bryce Young played all year and he was statistically worse than Mac in every metric.

Mac isn't good, but way too many people want him to be uniquely bad as a reason for the teams failure. The team's problems were way beyond Mac and teams have won with worse than Mac

 

[Ian]

Huh. I thought he was really bad in the Phins game. Man, seems I just can't look at numbers like this.

He wasn't terrible in the Phins game. He actually started off hot, but Douglas had that fumble at the end of the first quarter (Miami later got a TD), and Jones was without him from that point on (Douglas finished with 6 snaps) and he also had a bad third quarter.

Overall:


By QTR:
1st: 8/9 (88.9%) 53yds
2nd: 6/9 (66.7%) 42yds
3rd: 4/7 (57.1%) 33yds 1 INT
4th: 13/17 (76.5%) 103yds 1 TD

They blocked the field goal with 3:39 left in the third quarter, but trailing 17-3, Jones threw that interception on the next possession to Howard from the Miami 22 which killed that drive. That took away points, which is too bad because they scored on the next drive and it stayed close at 17-10 and they seemed to even have some momentum until Mostert broke off that 43yd TD run.

They even scored on the next drive to make it 24-17 with 5:25 left to play, but that was it. Even with Miami missing a field goal on their next possession, they couldn't capitalize. He needed a game-tying drive at the end but obviously couldn't finish it off.

 

[upstater1]

He wasn't terrible in the Phins game. He actually started off hot, but Douglas had that fumble at the end of the first quarter (Miami later got a TD), and Jones was without him from that point on (Douglas finished with 6 snaps) and he also had a bad third quarter.

Overall:
View attachment 56070

By QTR:
1st: 8/9 (88.9%) 53yds
2nd: 6/9 (66.7%) 42yds
3rd: 4/7 (57.1%) 33yds 1 INT
4th: 13/17 (76.5%) 103yds 1 TD

They blocked the field goal with 3:39 left in the third quarter, but trailing 17-3, Jones threw that interception on the next possession to Howard from the Miami 22 which killed that drive. That took away points, which is too bad because they scored on the next drive and it stayed close at 17-10 and they seemed to even have some momentum until Mostert broke off that 43yd TD run.

They even scored on the next drive to make it 24-17 with 5:25 left to play, but that was it. Even with Miami missing a field goal on their next possession, they couldn't capitalize. He needed a game-tying drive at the end but obviously couldn't finish it off.

I started a thread here after the Dolphins game about what I saw as Mac's very bad play that day. I was disheartened because any post you'll find from me last year defended Mac because of the Patricia situation. The very next week I thought Mac played great against the Jets (but his numbers don't show it). I thought he was really bad the Phins game. I posted as to why that very night.

 

[Ian]

Should say worst starting QB I can remember seeing.

Excluding guys who are normally backups. I went down a list and would take a ton of starters who were bad.

I'm not sold on that "rookie season" either. Really bad QBs can manage several games in the NFL even when they are putrid. Remember the season Case Keenum had a few years ago? You see him the next years and he's really bad.

I can name one starter I think is worse than Mac: Curtis Painter.

But other than him, I can't think of worse going back 20 years, unless we're including Zach Wilson. You look at Mark Sanchez in his 2nd and 3rd years, and he was better.

I don't know. I don't see Mac as one of the worst ever, not yet. I guess if you put 2023 by itself, you could make the argument. But I don't know if he's there yet. Albeit, if he puts together similar seasons to this year elsewhere, he could potentially get himself on the list.

I wouldn't even say Sanchez is one of the "worst ever" - he just happens to be associated with the most embarrassing play ever. LOL, I'm sure that one's got to be tough to live with

 

[upstater1]

I don't know. I don't see Mac as one of the worst ever, not yet. I guess if you put 2023 by itself, you could make the argument. But I don't know if he's there yet. Albeit, if he puts together similar seasons to this year elsewhere, he could potentially get himself on the list.

I wouldn't even say Sanchez is one of the "worst ever" - he just happens to be associated with the most embarrassing play ever. LOL, I'm sure that one's got to be tough to live with

I really though pretty hard about bad QBs and the past 20 years, and I only came up with people like Curtis Painter and Mark Sanchez. I didn't count Zach Wilson and Mitch Trubisky just because they were ousted pretty quickly. I considered Mac the starting QB for 2 3/4s seasons here.

 

[Ian]

I really though pretty hard about bad QBs and the past 20 years, and I only came up with people like Curtis Painter and Mark Sanchez. I didn't count Zach Wilson and Mitch Trubisky just because they were ousted pretty quickly. I considered Mac the starting QB for 2 3/4s seasons here.

I'd have to think about it. Although, it's tough, because you sort of have to put the guys who were highly rated but played maybe a season or less and were gone ahead of somebody like those guys in terms of "worst ever" QBs.

Obviously you could go back further to the Ryan Leafs and Rick Mirers of the world ... but you're right...everyone else, you end up forgetting all about those guys, so it's kind of hard to recall them in moments like this.

 

[TommyD4207]

I really though pretty hard about bad QBs and the past 20 years, and I only came up with people like Curtis Painter and Mark Sanchez. I didn't count Zach Wilson and Mitch Trubisky just because they were ousted pretty quickly. I considered Mac the starting QB for 2 3/4s seasons here.

Sanchez was definitely better than Mac Jones. Curtis Painter...you might have one there. I'd have to go re-watch Curtis Painter tape, and there's no way in hell I'm going to sit through that.

 

[UGAPatsfan]

I'd have to think about it. Although, it's tough, because you sort of have to put the guys who were highly rated but played maybe a season or less and were gone ahead of somebody like those guys in terms of "worst ever" QBs.

Obviously you could go back further to the Ryan Leafs and Rick Mirers of the world ... but you're right...everyone else, you end up forgetting all about those guys, so it's kind of hard to recall them in moments like this.

Jamarcus. Russell.

Oof.

Leaf and Russell were vastly more athletically gifted than Mac but both had mental issues.

Thing with Mac that we KNEW during the draft was that he wasn’t physically gifted…the idea was he had superior mental ability and maturity.

Turns out that wasn’t accurate and more importantly, his toughness was really the missing piece. Hard to measure that.

I do remember him having a TERRIBLE pro day which probably should have been a tell that high pressure wasn’t his thing.

 

[Ian]

Sanchez was definitely better than Mac Jones. Curtis Painter...you might have one there. I'd have to go re-watch Curtis Painter tape, and there's no way in hell I'm going to sit through that.

LOL, Painter was a good mention, although it's tough, he was rated way down the list (he was a sixth round pick) so his results weren't that surprising. Although, the comp we had in the sixth round is probably one that many were basing that off of back then

But it would probably be interesting to look at guys taken in maybe the first few rounds to see which ones flamed out in spectacular fashion. Again, none come to mind, but it's probably because I've put them out of my memory.

 

[Ian]

Jamarcus. Russell.

Oof.

Leaf and Russell were vastly more athletically gifted than Mac but both had mental issues.

Thing with Mac that we KNEW during the draft was that he wasn’t physically gifted…the idea was he had superior mental ability and maturity.

Turns out that wasn’t accurate and more importantly, his toughness was really the missing piece. Hard to measure that.

I do remember him having a TERRIBLE pro day which probably should have been a tell that high pressure wasn’t his thing.

Yeah, he's not as mentally tough as I thought. We'll see if that changes after hitting what was obviously a massive amount of adversity this season. Coming off last year, I don't know how much of the blame he put on himself for how that went. This year, obviously, was a different story.

 

[condon84]

He wasn't terrible in the Phins game. He actually started off hot, but Douglas had that fumble at the end of the first quarter (Miami later got a TD), and Jones was without him from that point on (Douglas finished with 6 snaps) and he also had a bad third quarter.

Overall:
View attachment 56070

By QTR:
1st: 8/9 (88.9%) 53yds
2nd: 6/9 (66.7%) 42yds
3rd: 4/7 (57.1%) 33yds 1 INT
4th: 13/17 (76.5%) 103yds 1 TD

They blocked the field goal with 3:39 left in the third quarter, but trailing 17-3, Jones threw that interception on the next possession to Howard from the Miami 22 which killed that drive. That took away points, which is too bad because they scored on the next drive and it stayed close at 17-10 and they seemed to even have some momentum until Mostert broke off that 43yd TD run.

They even scored on the next drive to make it 24-17 with 5:25 left to play, but that was it. Even with Miami missing a field goal on their next possession, they couldn't capitalize. He needed a game-tying drive at the end but obviously couldn't finish it off.

The issue with using stats to rate Mac's play is it doesn't paint the entire picture of how bad his play was.

The missed reads, bad overthrows/underthrows, throwing to a receiver short of gain when there's an opportunity to complete longer passes.

 

[Ian]

The issue with using stats to rate Mac's play is it doesn't paint the entire picture of how bad his play was.

The missed reads, bad overthrows/underthrows, throwing to a receiver short of gain when there's an opportunity to complete longer passes.

I don't disagree. But this all started when discussing if Mac is among the "worst ever" - my only point was that there's definitely been far worse. Although, again, he's got an opportunity to establish himself there and it remains to be seen whether or not he'll end up on that list. He's teetering from going from the best QB in his class in his first year to on his way out of the league, so it's not impossible if he continues his current trajectory.

 

[lancerman]

The issue with using stats to rate Mac's play is it doesn't paint the entire picture of how bad his play was.

The missed reads, bad overthrows/underthrows, throwing to a receiver short of gain when there's an opportunity to complete longer passes.

That's only part of the context though. The problem is once you factor in the abysmal stats the Patriots offense had in pass protection and receiving separation, you could legitimately argue whoever the Patriots QB was, ultimately had the hardest job in the NFL.

It's a very justifiable conclusion that every single QB in the league would see a meaningful decline in production on the Patriots offense. Mac actually got worse as the year went on, but how much of that was about him just losing faith in the offense and just expecting things to go wrong whether he made the right read or not? That's a significant question because there were plays that would have contributed to a game winning drive or a game changing situation that Mac actually did make the right read and throw on and someone else blew it. There were also drives where the line just collapsed at key times where no QB was going to save the play.

Mac had his own faults, but they got compounded and worse over time because of the situation. We saw the same thing Zappe. He was unremarkable and not much different than early season Mac when he started, then as time went on and he stopped lucking out of INT worthy

I hate to break it to some people, but there's a solid chance Mac leaves, ends up on a much better offense, and at the very least looks average and good enough to be a game manager and the Patriots look worse. That doesn't mean he's a viable franchise QB, but this wasn't a team where the first and biggest problem was QB and they dragged everything else down. This was a really bad offense.

Somebody brought up Painter, Painter was legit on a team that had talent on offense and was a playoff team before and after him. Painter might have gone winless and set records for all time bad play if he was here.

 

[Hyped]

Huh. I thought he was really bad in the Phins game. Man, seems I just can't look at numbers like this.

In retrospective, our early season opponents were:

Eagles - They ended up falling apart on both sides of the ball. They were playing with fire during their 10-1 start.
Dolphins - Never beat a single winning team all year except for the Cowboys.
@NYJ - Zach Wilson, nuff' said.
@DAL - Hardly beat many winning teams this year but were solid at home...
NO - Missed the playoffs...but were offensively challenged all season except for our game...weird, huh?

 

[sb1]

Jones in 2023: 77 rating
Zappe: 69 rating

Not seeing where the upgrade was on offense when Jones was benched.

 

[lancerman]

Jones in 2023: 77 rating
Zappe: 69 rating

Not seeing where the upgrade was on offense when Jones was benched.

The only real argument Zappe had over Jones was that he looked more confident in the pocket. But that's not really saying much because by that point Mac had spent all year getting massacred. We saw what happened with Zappe. He got some breaks in his first few games (and one was a shutout), then by the end he reverted to as bad or worse than Mac.

Mac and Zappe's last games were both against New York teams (Mac was on the road, Zappe was at home in bad whether) and they both posted similar stat lines. Both had 0TD's, 2INT. Mac had 89 yards, Zappe had 88. Mac had a 27 passer rating and Zappe had a 20 passer rating.

If you compare where Mac was at the end to where Zappe started when he got the nod, sure Zappe was an "upgrade". But Zappe start was actually worse than Mac's start and Zappe's finish was virtually identical. Mac also had the overall best game. His Bills performances was better than Zappe's best performance and that's before you include that was the best team we actually beat on the year.

Zappe was sort of a case of "people saw what they wanted to see because they really wanted Mac to be the only problem".