The Hybrid Nature Of Linebacker and Ends On the Patriots

[manxman2601]

I'm just watching the AFC Championship Game against Pittsburgh on all-22 and I'm fascinated by the roles of the linebackers and 'Ends'. One thing I've learned, is that looking at 4-3 'Defensive Ends' or 'coverage linebackers' is a complete waste of time. On the Patriots, if you are a traditional End, you are either playing as an End or a 1-gap 3-tech. If you are a linebacker not named Elandon Roberts you are invariably lining up as an on the line 3-4 outside linebacker either standing up or with your hand in the dirt. There is no role for a coverage linebacker unless you are a SS/linebacker hybrid and play in Patrick Chung's position. The Patriots linebacker needs to be able to rush the passer, set the edge and drop into coverage as well as play MLB.

What I've seen:

• We play the 5-1 formation a bunch with a two gap 3-tech on one side and a 1-gap 3-tech on the other (more often than not Sheard/Flowers and Long). The OLBs are on the line 3-4 OLBs effectively.
• Elandon Roberts is the only one who plays in the traditional linebacker spot exclusively.
• Van Noy and McClellin are spending more time playing ILB than Hightower
• Hightower/McClellin, Van Noy and Ninkovich all rotate at the on the line 3-4 OLB spot. On any snap they will be asked to either rush the passer, set the edge or drop into coverage.
• Chung is effectively a linebacker lining up next to Roberts.
• We are a 3-4 team effectively except we've just replaced an ILB with a safety, moved our 5-techs to 3-techs and brought up our OLBs onto the line.

Whilst I knew some of this anyway, watching the all-22 really puts it into perspective. It also highlights the plan behind getting McClellin and Van Noy.

What I've learned:

• I don't think linebacker as such is a need. Not a traditional one anyway. Look for either big 3-4 OLBs or safety/linebacker hybrids.
• If we have to replace Hightower, look for an EDGE player who can project to ILB too. He spends more of his time outside. McClellin and Van Noy are actually really good templates. They're the ones who seem to switch most between 3-4 OLB and ILB.
• We don't really need edge benders at Defensive End, it's our OLBs that rush the QB from the edge a lot of the time. But they also drop into coverage from the same spot.

 

[maineman209]

You had me at the title.

Excellent!

 

[manxman2601]

I've now become officially interested in Ryan Anderson but, as a potential Hightower replacement. I don't see him as a Sheard/Long replacement but as someone who can do the Hightower/McClellin/Van Noy role. I'd also consider Taco Charlton, Tarell Basham or Daeshon Hall much less likely fits than I did before because I don't know if they can play 3-tech.

Defensive needs as I see it from watching the Pats tape:

1. a 3-4 OLB who is good against the run if we need to replace Hightower. Someone that can project inside too.
2. A backup to Flowers. A hybrid 4-3 DE that can play 3-tech. If scouting reports say that he's not flexible enough to be a 4-3 DE and probably should become a 5-tech, that could be your guy (back on the Deatrich Wise train?)
3. Perhaps a SS/linebacker hybrid to backup Chung.

One more thing. Everyone is surprised about BB giving up his high picks. But if you look at our DEs and linebackers, whilst one might call them hybrids, they could also be described as tweeners. And the prospects described as tweeners usually have a lower value. BB is finding the value in the market again.

 

[maineman209]

I've now become officially interested in Ryan Anderson but, as a potential Hightower replacement. I don't see him as a Sheard/Long replacement but as someone who can do the Hightower/McClellin/Van Noy role. I'd also consider Taco Charlton, Tarell Basham or Daeshon Hall much less likely fits than I did before because I don't know if they can play 3-tech.

Defensive needs as I see it from watching the Pats tape:

1. a 3-4 OLB who is good against the run if we need to replace Hightower. Someone that can project inside too.
2. A backup to Flowers. A hybrid 4-3 DE that can play 3-tech. If scouting reports say that he's not flexible enough to be a 4-3 DE and probably should become a 5-tech, that could be your guy (back on the Deatrich Wise train?)
3. Perhaps a SS/linebacker hybrid to backup Chung.

One more thing. Everyone is surprised about BB giving up his high picks. But if you look at our DEs and linebackers, whilst one might call them hybrids, they could also be described as tweeners. And the prospects described as tweeners usually have a lower value. BB is finding the value in the market again.

I've liked Anderson from the beginning. I should probably add him to my binky list.

What do you think of Willis or Derek Rivers? I haven't really seen much on either of them.

The first prospect who comes to mind for SS/LB hybrid is Peppers, who I think is virtually Chung 2.0 (in both good and bad respects), but he's certainly out of reach with no 1st or 2nd rounder.

Yeah, that "tweener" thing with BB has been going on for a long time ... "Yeah, but, can he rush the passer??!!"

 

[manxman2601]

I've liked Anderson from the beginning. I should probably add him to my binky list.

What do you think of Willis or Derek Rivers? I haven't really seen much on either of them.

The first prospect who comes to mind for SS/LB hybrid is Peppers, who I think is virtually Chung 2.0 (in both good and bad respects), but he's certainly out of reach with no 1st or 2nd rounder.

Yeah, that "tweener" thing with BB has been going on for a long time ... "Yeah, but, can he rush the passer??!!"

I think I need to rewatch everyone based upon this personal revelation for me and consider whether they can perform the hybrid natures of their projected roles. It really is incredible how BB can take a bunch of tweeners and use them as cogs in the NFLs leading scoring defense. And it's also surprising, watching the Pittsburgh game, just how little ILB Hightower played. On the 5-1 formations, Roberts was the usual guy there but Van Noy and even McClellin were being used there more than Hightower. He's a borderline EDGe player on this defense now. I've just downloaded all the games from the second half of the season. I'm going to watch them and see whether the same holds true throughout.

 

[manxman2601]

From Bryan Cox Jnr's scouting report at nfl.com:

Cox's length and power can become more effective combat weapons if he can be coached up on his hand usage. While he lacks the athletic traits and talent to become an effective pass rusher as a defensive end, his first step and rush skills could open a door for him as an interior rusher on third downs.

He's going on the list as a strong candidate

 

[mihap]

• We don't really need edge benders at Defensive End, it's our OLBs that rush the QB from the edge a lot of the time. But they also drop into coverage from the same spot.

How do you rate LB Jonatahan Freeney? I know he didnt play this year but how do you evaluate him.

 

[AzorianPats]

How about Anderson as a Ninko replacement?

Also the trade for Kony Ealy is another guy bigger than Flowers. Starting to see a trend in certain "ends" BB looking for.

Also points out to what Long said on his way out the door. Paraphrasing but he basically said He was playing more 3 tech, and he wants to play more 5.

 

[AzorianPats]

Fantastic thread Manx!

 

[manxman2601]

How do you rate LB Jonatahan Freeney? I know he didnt play this year but how do you evaluate him.

I must admit, I've never watched him closely enough to evaluate him as such. All I can say is that he's stood out more for his mishaps than his positive plays. He's someone you'd be happy to move on from but can fill out a 53.

 

[manxman2601]

How about Anderson as a Ninko replacement?

Also the trade for Kony Ealy is another guy bigger than Flowers. Starting to see a trend in certain "ends" BB looking for.

Also points out to what Long said on his way out the door. Paraphrasing but he basically said He was playing more 3 tech, and he wants to play more 5.

For Long he was also dropping into coverage a bit as an OLB too. Ealy is certainly the Flowers type. Will play on the end in 4 man fronts and kick inside on 5 man fronts. I think Anderson is ideal for this five man front. Rushes the passer, sets the edge and drops into coverage and I reckon could play some ILB too if necessary. Based on the picks we have now, he's very near the top of my board for our first pick if he falls that far. I'm very impressed with Bryan Cox Jnr too for that End/3-Tech role of Flowers.

 

[mihap]

I don't think linebacker as such is a need. Not a traditional one anyway. Look for either big 3-4 OLBs or safety/linebacker hybrids.

• If we have to replace Hightower, look for an EDGE player who can project to ILB too. He spends more of his time outside. McClellin and Van Noy are actually really good templates. They're the ones who seem to switch most between 3-4 OLB and ILB.
• We don't really need edge benders at Defensive End, it's our OLBs that rush the QB from the edge a lot of the time. But they also drop into coverage from the same spot.

Do you think Connor Barwin is potential Hihgtower replacement. he was playing OLB, so you should check him 2014,15 in Philly, not 2016 because he was in 4-3 system under Jim Schwartz. Or check 2012 when he was under Wade Philips in Houston. Is he any good in coverage?

 

[I.M. Fletcher]

Really good thread Manx!

A couple things I would add.

1. I don't think you can undervalue how much the system is tied to the personnel available. When you have a linebacker like Hightower, who is 6.3 265lbs, all of a sudden, you have a lot of new opportunities. He is so big, fast and aggressive tackling, you can line him up anywhere from 3tech to straight box LB. That is an extraordinary amount of versatility that a single player provides you.

That's just one example, but I think it's important to acknowledge the difference between the ideal and the reality. Being able to work with what they had, doesn't necessarily mean it is all they hope to do. We shouldn't forget that much of what we saw at the end of last year was only after Collins blew up on the coach and got shipped out. Who knows where we would've landed otherwise.

2. The Guy signing is an interesting one since he could technically end up play the NT on passing downs, or spread out as DE even in 4man fronts. His versatility may not make him someone who plays in over 50% of snaps, but the different types of snaps he takes will be key. I don't forsee him as a starter, but will get more snaps as the game goes on.

3. Roberts is probably the only true one trick pony left on defense. Think about that for a second. Every other corner, LB, DE and DT can hold down multiple responsibilities. Roberts will be the clearest tell we have, as far as the type of defense we intend to play on a given snap. His usage was right around 25% last year, and I expect to see more of that from him going forward. We just don't need a lot from a 2down run stopper when you are leading the majority of the game.

4. I think the needs we see today are not much different than we did before. The star backer was something that we have been flirting with for years, and has been obviously eyed by the team in the previous drafts. OLB with inside capabilities is more or less what a Bowser/Langi/Biegel type would be, and have been a point of emphasis for awhile. Even better if they have Special Teams value. The matter of the last position will come down to value. It could be an oversized End like Wise/Hall/Tanoh? Or it could be a straight rusher who is comfortable in space and sealing the edge like Hendrickson/Rivers. They may focus on size, or may want someone who can pin their ears back, given the amount of time teams will be passing on us.

5. It can't be underestimated that we will build a team based on the type of teams we will play this year. While we (rightfully so) built a defense last year to stand up against strong running teams, this year we will have to be more emphatic on being even more disruptive on top QBs. We haven't had a run of QBs like we will this year in quite some time, so having designated pass rushers and better play over TEs will become incredibly important.

I love these types of topics. It allows us to take a step back and judge the current roster based on where the team is leaning. Good stuff Manx!

 

[manxman2601]

Do you think Connor Barwin is potential Hihgtower replacement. he was playing OLB, so you should check him 2014,15 in Philly, not 2016 because he was in 4-3 system under Jim Schwartz. Or check 2012 when he was under Wade Philips in Houston. Is he any good in coverage?

He certainly could when Hightower is playing on the edge but the thing to bear in mind that in more conventional formations, Hightower switches back to a more traditional linebacker. I don't know about Barwin in coverage but yes, in this 5 man front, Barwin could replicate what Hightower does.

 

[manxman2601]

Really good thread Manx!

A couple things I would add.

1. I don't think you can undervalue how much the system is tied to the personnel available. When you have a linebacker like Hightower, who is 6.3 265lbs, all of a sudden, you have a lot of new opportunities. He is so big, fast and aggressive tackling, you can line him up anywhere from 3tech to straight box LB. That is an extraordinary amount of versatility that a single player provides you.

That's just one example, but I think it's important to acknowledge the difference between the ideal and the reality. Being able to work with what they had, doesn't necessarily mean it is all they hope to do. We shouldn't forget that much of what we saw at the end of last year was only after Collins blew up on the coach and got shipped out. Who knows where we would've landed otherwise.

2. The Guy signing is an interesting one since he could technically end up play the NT on passing downs, or spread out as DE even in 4man fronts. His versatility may not make him someone who plays in over 50% of snaps, but the different types of snaps he takes will be key. I don't forsee him as a starter, but will get more snaps as the game goes on.

3. Roberts is probably the only true one trick pony left on defense. Think about that for a second. Every other corner, LB, DE and DT can hold down multiple responsibilities. Roberts will be the clearest tell we have, as far as the type of defense we intend to play on a given snap. His usage was right around 25% last year, and I expect to see more of that from him going forward. We just don't need a lot from a 2down run stopper when you are leading the majority of the game.

4. I think the needs we see today are not much different than we did before. The star backer was something that we have been flirting with for years, and has been obviously eyed by the team in the previous drafts. OLB with inside capabilities is more or less what a Bowser/Langi/Biegel type would be, and have been a point of emphasis for awhile. Even better if they have Special Teams value. The matter of the last position will come down to value. It could be an oversized End like Wise/Hall/Tanoh? Or it could be a straight rusher who is comfortable in space and sealing the edge like Hendrickson/Rivers. They may focus on size, or may want someone who can pin their ears back, given the amount of time teams will be passing on us.

5. It can't be underestimated that we will build a team based on the type of teams we will play this year. While we (rightfully so) built a defense last year to stand up against strong running teams, this year we will have to be more emphatic on being even more disruptive on top QBs. We haven't had a run of QBs like we will this year in quite some time, so having designated pass rushers and better play over TEs will become incredibly important.

I love these types of topics. It allows us to take a step back and judge the current roster based on where the team is leaning. Good stuff Manx!

I agree with you that this might have been a formation built around what they had on the roster but it might be that they happened to 'luck into' a very effective formation. It's essentially a 3-4 and the advantage of a 3-4 has always been that you can disguise what you're doing, much more so than in a 4-3. But it's a 3-4 that also offers one of the advantages of a 4-3, namely the interior rusher - in this case Flowers. The big thing with this formation is that you have to be able to stop the run. With 5 men on the line, if a rusher breaks through the line, there's not a lot to stop him before he gets to the secondary.

My view is that they'll continue rotating the conventional, albeit oversized 4-3, and this 5 man front 3-4. It suits the defensive roster we have and I think suits the type of prospects we'll find in the second half of this draft. I've been watching tape this afternoon based upon this idea and the three names you identified (Biegel/Bowser/Langi*) are ideal. Bryan Cox is an ideal 4-3/3-tech DE and Delano Hill is an ideal fit for the Chung role. But as you say, going up against the passers we'll be facing this year maybe he'll go to a more conventional pass rushing system in a 4-3.

* And maybe Carroll Phillips? I need to watch some Smoot videos so I can study Phillips.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Anderson and Willis are the two guys that I think bb needs to take a close look at.

Anderson is ready now to play in our defense.

Willis probably needs a red shirt year.

But I think both are off the board by #72.

 

[mihap]

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Great stuff as always @manxman2601. That's partly why I'd zeroed in on DeMarcus Walker. He reminds me of a much more polished version of Ealy. He's not projected to test super well, and with a minor injury holding him out of the Combine, it's quite possible that he's available at 72. The dream is still alive.

 

[I.M. Fletcher]

Great stuff as always @manxman2601. That's partly why I'd zeroed in on DeMarcus Walker. He reminds me of a much more polished version of Ealy. He's not projected to test super well, and with a minor injury holding him out of the Combine, it's quite possible that he's available at 72. The dream is still alive.

He is almost a direct split of Flowers and Ninko. He Kindve has that doughy middle like Ninko, but has a great bend at the waist as well. He has that great inside swim that Flowers has, where he is almost more comfortable working himself inside the tackle than bending the corner. His willingness to play every position on the Dline this year shouldn't be taken lightly either. Just did everything the team needed from him. And produced like crazy, so you know he's a football player.

I really didn't love the fit beforehand, but he does make some sense as a versatile 3tech 5tech and on his feet edge guy. Not going to run with guys on the edges, but if he's living on the line, he can be disruptive. Almost the bargain version of Solomon Thomas, if that's an easier comparison to navigate.

 

[KevinFaulk-33]

I've just seen part of the Baltimore game and also in that game they used the formation that manx described, but with Hightower as MLB and Ninko/McClellin as OLB.

When the rotation started Long substituted Flowers a 3-tech and Sheard replaced Ninko. Later Van Noy played OLB replacing McClellin.

I think that Lawrence Guy could spell Brown (that also play the 3-tech position) meanwhile Ealy could spell Flowers.

In this case if Roberts is at MLB you have 4 OLB that can rotate (High, Ninko and McClellin and Van Noy), but if High stays at MLB I think at least another OLB is needed.

What do you guys think?