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The Emphasis on Special Teams

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mgteich, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Belichick probably has a higher emphasis on special teams than any other GM. At least 10 roster spots are for special teamers. Belichick uses starters on his special teams. In addition, lots of players are one the team to only play special teams, or primarily because of their special teams abilities. Almost all of these players is active in any given week.

    Gostkowski
    Allen
    Cardona
    Slater
    King
    Ebner
    Bolden (also an emergency backup at RB)
    Crossen (also the #6 CB)
    Brooks (also an emergency backup at safety)
    a 5th WR because of his abilities as a returner (Ellington?)
    Unsigned: McClellan or replacement (also an emergency LB)
     
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  2. luuked

    luuked Pro Bowl Player

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    Yes?

    Whats your point? Discussing importance of ST relative to roster spots?
     
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  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not sure how to respond to this, except I agree...
     
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan TB12, BB = G.O.A.T.s PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I guess some people don't like it:



    I'm not trying to suggest that BB can do no wrong but he keeps doing this and he keeps winning Super Bowls. So I'm good with it :D
     
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  5. farn

    farn Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    KEEPS WINNING SBs... why do we give a crap about this every year ? WINNING. WINNING. WINNING...
     
  6. ALP

    ALP Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    i wonder what the average for rest of league is
     
  7. FCB02062

    FCB02062 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Since Giardi went "national" he's become a high ranking officer of Patriots Schitt Stirring
     
  8. luuked

    luuked Pro Bowl Player

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    So Miguel redid Giardis calculation and he cant get to those 18M which lead to a funny exchange between the two:





    Maybe Giardi should stick looking at his JG poster. It looks like he did Volin level research.
     
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  9. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So, $18M is crazy? Let us use $4.1M for Ghost (probably too high). We might argue with some of the players, but $18.2M is NOT crazy.

    $4.1 Ghost
    2.9 Slater
    2.8 Ebner
    1.7 Bolden
    1.5 Brooks
    1.5 Allen
    1.4 King
    1.0 Cardona
    .7 Ellington
    .6 Crossen
    ---------
    $18.2M total

    plus an unsigned ST/LB
     
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  10. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    the importance to roster spots, active roster spots and to the cap

    We will possibly be spending more cap money on STers than on WR's (certainly if we re-sign Hogan and add a draftee or 2). I suspect that there aren't many teams in that situation.

     
  11. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Another super useful thread from the over-replyer.

    I do appreciate the effort it takes you to reply in such an inconvenient and obnoxious way, TBH.

     
  12. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I love that Belichick first cut his chops early as a great special teams coach


    .
     
  13. patfanken

    patfanken PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    One of the main reasons BB has stayed ahead of the league all these years has been his attention to the importance of special teams. BUT I see the league, in their incessant quest to dumb down the game, have eaten into special teams the last decade. They have legislated everything from the kick return to the FG block essentially out of the game. And in doing so they have taken away whatever advantages SMART coaches could get from that aspect of the game.

    I LOVE the fact that BB still values ST's, but I'm beginning to wonder if such a big investment in that area is worth it anymore. Do we actually HAVE too many "core ST'ers who use up an inordinate amount of cap space? I don't know, but I DO know that its time we start to at least start to question it.

    You STILL have to have a good FG kicker, and consistent and dependable punter. You STILL have to have a quality punt coverage team. Having a threat at returner is a plus, but not required. But do we need to spend THAT much money on guys like Ebner, Bolden, Brooks, Allen, King and even Slater.

    We are adding 10-12 new players in this draft as well as what we have coming back from last year's red shirt group. Shouldn't 4 or 5 of THOSE comparatively cheaper players start to play a bigger role on ST's?

    We could save about 5- 8MM by dropping some of those that I mentioned. Would it be worth it? I guess it would depend on what we used the savings for.
     
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  14. Dragda

    Dragda Yes, it's really me... PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The character of our team comes from great special teams play. It’s also a proven method to promote unity because players cross over from offense and defense.
     
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  15. luuked

    luuked Pro Bowl Player

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    One would think our ST completely and utterly outplaying the Rams in the biggest game of the season last year would have been enough to stop those "lets start questioning" attempts whenever BB does a thing different than the rest of the league.

    If there is one constant through the entire time BB has been running this team is that value trumps everything. They are doing enough self scouting and have more humility than any other staff in the league to course adjust/cut bait if they ever consider the impact ST has so greatly diminished that it is not worth the investment anymore. But given recent signings like Brooks or Bolden and the pickup of Slaters option I dont think we are at that point yet.
     
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  16. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How many times have we heard BB comment on all three aspects of the game?? Not sure I have ever heard another coach comment on it as much, but then again how many coaches have won 6 Superbowls in 20 years...

    I have absolutely no issue with it, and just about every player aside from Ghost and Allen, can fill a need offensively or defensively if necessary...

    What I would like to see is an investment into a Punt Returner.. as I fear for the safety of fearless Julian..
     
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  17. neuronet

    neuronet Homer Little PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And then SB53 happened, where special teams were huge for both sides (those punts from the Rams were ridiculous, for instance).

    In an offense-driven league that is killing kickoffs, someone might agree with your sentiment Ken, but so far they aren't killing punts, and they have such a huge role in the field position battles that until the punt gets killed, special teams will continue to be important IMHO. Maybe not quite as important, I'd agree.
     
  18. patfanken

    patfanken PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Like I said, just about the ONLY special team unit that needs to very effective is the punt coverage team. And like you pointed out, both of those teams were very effective in the superbowl.

    But the fact is that the league has virtually legislated out the punt and FG blocks. Sure they happen very rarely, but you can't touch the snapper, you can't leap, you can't overload one side. In other words you can't create or coach to find an advantage. The only way to block a kick these days is if there is a massive breakdown by the offense.

    The KO return WAS one of the most exciting plays in football. Now only about a quarter of all KO's are being returned, and only a small percentage of those get past the 25.

    On side kicks were another area where a coach used to be able to design something that might increase the 1o% chance he could get a recovery. A very exciting play even though it usually wound up in the offenses hands. But not any more. In the "interests of safety" (what ********) the chances of recovering an onside kick now is closer to zero than it is to 5%.

    I always felt that ST's superiority was one way Bill could win games when the talent of his team didn't match the team he was competing against. It was a area that COULD give him an advantage because he worked harder at it than his opponent and allocated more resources to it.

    Well the NFL has spent the better part of the last 10 years trying to eliminate that gap by taking any creativity OUT of the kicking game, (and pretty much every where else when they can). I guess its part of their attempt to consistently "level the field", so even the dumbest and laziest coaches can compete.

    So my point is that it shouldn't be a question that the value of special teams has been reduced. It simply HAS. And while I want the best punt coverage team in the league and a great punter, kicker and snapper. I no longer think you need to spend over $18MM/yr for a slew of guys who play JUST special teams.

    JMHO
     
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  19. luuked

    luuked Pro Bowl Player

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    Nobody is spending 18M/yr on guys that JUST play special teams. Even Giardi who made the number up said as much. Part of his calculus were players like Bolden or Brooks who not only have ST value.

    And while you think the value has decreased I would argue that BB disagrees with that assessment. You are making it out to be a fact when it is just an opinion. We blocked a couple of punts this year, CP had a return for a TD, pressure from the FG defense resulted in missed FGs. There are still enough edges to be had on ST.

    Hell, I'd almost argue that if teams start to try to save money on ST it would be the perfect time to invest even more into it and create an even bigger skillgap.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  20. patriot1136

    patriot1136 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Do we re-sign McClellin or Humber now that Bolden is back in the mix?
     

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