The best thing for this team moving forward? No more BOB

[IllegalContact]

If only BOB had caught that pass from Brady....

If only BOB threw the ball far enough for gronk to catch it and didn't throw it behind branch

 

[MaineMan]

TB isn't responsible for the personnel substitutions that provide any given play.

Actually, he is much of the time. He DOES get to call for certain personnel packages based on what he's seeing from the defense that he thinks he can exploit.

He didn't send BJGE to the bench after a couple failed plays that's BOB's call.

Players, especially RBs, raise their hands to come out of the game all the time. I've seen BGE do this on a number of occasions. It's definitely not all on BoB or Brady.

How is an empty backfield his doing? geezus.

From what I've seen, few of the personnel packages the Pats use include no one who can line up in the backfield. However, quite frequently the offense breaks the huddle with a guy in the backfield who subsequently motions out to the slot when BRADY checks out of that play/formation, resulting in an empty backfield.

All i can do is lol at the idea of BB letting ego's run rampid.

All this has zippo to do with "egos" on the team or sideline. It's actually about BoB, Brady and (to some extent) BB making their calculations about what's best to do next, given the overall game situation, the immediate down/distance/field position, what the defense has been doing, etc. - all within the framework of the gameplan and play-designs that have been repped in practice - with Brady himself making the final decision at the LoS. The sideline rarely dictates specifically what the offense is going to do - something that most people don't seem to get.

 

[MaineMan]

There are two realities with respect to the Patriots' offense.

1. They are an historically great regular season scoring machine. Last two seasons:

2010: 518 points (32.4/g) - #10 all-time
2011: 513 points (32.1/g) - #12 all-time

This isn't even counting 2007 where they scored 589 (36.8/g), which, of course, was the #1 offense all-time.

Moreover, consider how consistent this team is in putting up a lot of points:

2010:
- 14 out of 16 games with 20+ points
- 11 out of 16 games with 30+ points
- 8 out of 16 games with 35+ points

2011:
- 15 out of 16 games with 20+ points
- 13 out of 16 games with 30+ points
- 6 out of 16 games with 35+ points

Totals:
- 29 out of 32 games with 20+ points (90.6%)
- 24 out of 32 games with 30+ points (75.0%)
- 14 out of 32 games with 35+ points (43.8%)

That is unbelievably great and consistent production.

HOWEVER, consider their playoff performances. Granted, their playoff games are typically against tougher teams, but still.

Last 3 seasons:

- 14 pts vs. Bal
- 21 pts vs. NYJ
- 45 pts vs. Den
- 23 pts vs. Bal
- 17 pts vs. NYG

So out of their last 5 playoff games, they've scored 20+ in 3 of the 5. They've scored 24+ points just *once* in five games. They are averaging 24.0 ppg in the playoffs, and that is really skewed by that one outburst.

In other words, come playoff time, they consistently underperform offensively.

Now, there are several possible reasons for that:

(1) They are playing tougher defenses.
(2) They are playing better offenses, that keep their own D on the field longer, and thus keep the Pats' offense off the field more than usual (both in terms of time and in terms of # of possessions).
(3) Playcalling gets much more predictable.
(4) The players make more mistakes.

I don't know how much "credit" each of these possible causes should get. I'm sure it's a combination of things. But whatever the reason(s), these historically great offenses seriously underperform come playoff time, and it's killing them.

(5) Untimely injury to a key offensive player.

 

[ivanvamp]

(5) Untimely injury to a key offensive player.

Yeah, good point. Clearly a huge factor in the 2009 Ravens playoff game, and then against the Giants this SB with Gronk.

Of course, when they *did* have Gronk against the Giants during the regular season, they only scored 20 points - at home. So maybe not the best example.

 

[MaineMan]

Theres an old saying in foot ball that applies to the offense, it goes something like this. If you find something that works keep doing it until the defense stops you I don't think BOB ever heard of this but it makes a lot of sense. A good example would be BJGE is running the ball for good effect, if you applied the old saying i posted you'd keep running Benny until the defense stopped him. Did we EVER see BOB employ this strategy? very rarely if ever. How many times did we see BOB run Benny 3-4 times and then yank him (even if he was gaining 4-5 yards at a time). Then you wouldn't see Benny for a quarter or two. I'm glad hes gone

Are you referring to the same BoB who, in 2010, got nearly 2000 rushing yards and 19 rushing TDs out of two younger RBs who each do only ONE thing fairly well and three guys old enough to have played in leather helmets?

Did you happen to think that BGE - who really only runs well up the gut - may have been limited in 2011 by the fact that the RG was a new guy and that there was a rotation of guys through the center position due to injuries?

Not to mention that BGE himself was dinged up for a couple games.

In the SB, one of the primary run-blockers, Gronk, was ineffective due to injury and the new guy, Polite, just wasn't effective at all. Does any of this figure into your analysis? I'm pretty sure it did for BoB.

 

[MaineMan]

Yeah, good point. Clearly a huge factor in the 2009 Ravens playoff game, and then against the Giants this SB with Gronk.

Of course, when they *did* have Gronk against the Giants during the regular season, they only scored 20 points - at home. So maybe not the best example.

Well, of course key injuries/forced player substitutions don't figure into every poor performance, but they still need to be accounted for in any analysis of one game or a stretch of games.

Relating to another post - BGE's rushing success comes mainly up the middle and he gained over 1000 yds in 2010 doing just that. But Neal was replaced by Waters in the off-season and Koppen, a very underrated run-blocker, was lost to him in week-1, and then Connolly was dinged-up, leaving the middle manned by Wendell and McDonald for a couple games (and BGE had some of his own injury issues as well). All of this factored into how well the running game performed - and how well it must have seemed LIKELY to perform in a given week during game-planning, play-design sessions all season long.

If stuff like tis is NOT taken into account, folks will tend to go off half-****ed and erroneously identify the ONE SINGLE THING (or person) that's "broken" and recommend "fixes" that are completely outside reality.

 

[robbomango]

Actually, he is much of the time. He DOES get to call for certain personnel packages based on what he's seeing from the defense that he thinks he can exploit.



Players, especially RBs, raise their hands to come out of the game all the time. I've seen BGE do this on a number of occasions. It's definitely not all on BoB or Brady.



From what I've seen, few of the personnel packages the Pats use include no one who can line up in the backfield. However, quite frequently the offense breaks the huddle with a guy in the backfield who subsequently motions out to the slot when BRADY checks out of that play/formation, resulting in an empty backfield.



All this has zippo to do with "egos" on the team or sideline. It's actually about BoB, Brady and (to some extent) BB making their calculations about what's best to do next, given the overall game situation, the immediate down/distance/field position, what the defense has been doing, etc. - all within the framework of the gameplan and play-designs that have been repped in practice - with Brady himself making the final decision at the LoS. The sideline rarely dictates specifically what the offense is going to do - something that most people don't seem to get.

Nice post Maineman tnx,

The initial post i was responding to made it sound like TB's out of control ego was partly to blame for offensive production which seems hardly the case. If there's one thing BB does well it's keep ego's in check. Not sure how the patriot way doesn't apply to TB when he's been a model of it for years. Decision making at times? more probable. An egomaniac in pursuit of passing glory at the detriment of the team? far fetched. That's just my perspective.

Insightful post btw, much appreciated and needed, well for me anyways lol

 

[Huckleberry1]

No what's embarrassing is how some Patriot fans are incapable of honest critique and criticism of their own team. Far too many fanboys, pinkhats and fantasyfairy's in PatriotLand since they started winning SB's.
For the record I was responding to your post in which the word suck is prominently displayed. Tom Brady has also used it in describing his own performance against the Ravens. Not a word I routinely use at all.
It's laughable to claim that ANY Patriot fan is demanding perfection when discussing the obvious weaknesses of this team. Hate to break it to you but this high powered record breaking offense with the HOF QB is a weakness when the playoffs roll around.
They can't close out games when given multiple opportunities to do so.
Question is why and how to fix it????????

29-7 the last 2 seasons and a fraction from winning another Lombardi, yeah, they don't know how to close. Unbelievable.

 

[Huckleberry1]

You know who else can't close? The Packers. They suck too but their pink hat homer fans just can't admit it.

 

[MaineMan]

Nice post Maineman tnx,

The initial post i was responding to made it sound like TB's out of control ego was partly to blame for offensive production which seems hardly the case. If there's one thing BB does well it's keep ego's in check. Not sure how the patriot way doesn't apply to TB when he's been a model of it for years. Decision making at times? more probable. An egomaniac in pursuit of passing glory at the detriment of the team? far fetched. That's just my perspective.

Insightful post btw, much appreciated and needed, well for me anyways lol

Agree 100%.

But it's also good to remember that "ego" doesn't exclusively mean diva-like, glory-seeking selfishness. Honest competitiveness is also part of "ego" and it's the thing that every football player needs to have huge helpings of in order to be able to play the game, much less excel at it. Brady is a very competitive guy - and human. It's unreasonable to think that his genuine, well-intentioned "I got this!" doesn't sometimes obscure his discretionary gifts - not in pursuit of personal heroism, but in an effort to fully assume what he sees as the extent of his responsibility to "win it for the team."

Which is the long, psycho-babble way of saying that sometimes he simply effs-up from trying too hard to be as good as he thinks he's supposed to be. At least he readily takes the blame for it.

 

[MaineMan]

No what's embarrassing is how some Patriot fans are incapable of honest critique and criticism of their own team. Far too many fanboys, pinkhats and fantasyfairy's in PatriotLand since they started winning SB's.
For the record I was responding to your post in which the word suck is prominently displayed. Tom Brady has also used it in describing his own performance against the Ravens. Not a word I routinely use at all.
It's laughable to claim that ANY Patriot fan is demanding perfection when discussing the obvious weaknesses of this team. Hate to break it to you but this high powered record breaking offense with the HOF QB is a weakness when the playoffs roll around.
They can't close out games when given multiple opportunities to do so.
Question is why and how to fix it????????

Well, the Pats could make sure that Gronk doesn't destroy his ankle two weeks before the SB (2011) and that Chung doesn't fumble a fake punt (Jets, 2010) and that Welker doesn't blow up his knee a week before the playoffs (BAL 2009) and that Brady doesn't hurt his foot and or Neal doesn't get injured two weeks before the Superbowl (2007).

Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[JMarr]

Well, the Pats could make sure that Gronk doesn't destroy his ankle two weeks before the SB (2011) and that Chung doesn't fumble a fake punt (Jets, 2010) and that Welker doesn't blow up his knee a week before the playoffs (BAL 2009) and that Brady doesn't hurt his foot and or Neal doesn't get injured two weeks before the Superbowl (2007).

Seems pretty simple to me.

With all due respect, what an inane post. Take every other playoff team in the NFL and ask their fans why they didn't make it to or win the big game and they will give the exact same type of answers--"IF so and so hadn't shanked a FG, IF player X hadn't gotten injured, IF the punt returner doesn't fumble, blah blah blah. Just lame. Don't people realize that these justifications/excuses are universal? Bottom line is did you get the job done, and if not, how can you improve?

 

[102 Pat]

Well, the Pats could make sure that Gronk doesn't destroy his ankle two weeks before the SB (2011) and that Chung doesn't fumble a fake punt (Jets, 2010) and that Welker doesn't blow up his knee a week before the playoffs (BAL 2009) and that Brady doesn't hurt his foot and or Neal doesn't get injured two weeks before the Superbowl (2007).

Seems pretty simple to me.

It's not like injuries can be predicted...

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Uh guys, Main person was being facetious

 

[TheComeback]

With all due respect, what an inane post. Take every other playoff team in the NFL and ask their fans why they didn't make it to or win the big game and they will give the exact same type of answers--"IF so and so hadn't shanked a FG, IF player X hadn't gotten injured, IF the punt returner doesn't fumble, blah blah blah. Just lame. Don't people realize that these justifications/excuses are universal? Bottom line is did you get the job done, and if not, how can you improve?

It's not inane at all, nor it is an excuse. It's reality. That's the way the NFL is. Very few teams are dominant enough to make it to the Super Bowl without a lot of luck going their way.

Improving the team is always a priority, that goes without saying. But it hardly guarantees another championship.

 

[Patspsycho]

Are you referring to the same BoB who, in 2010, got nearly 2000 rushing yards and 19 rushing TDs out of two younger RBs who each do only ONE thing fairly well and three guys old enough to have played in leather helmets?

He is referring to the same BOB who may have done that during the regular season, but hasn't done it in the playoffs where it counts the most. The stats from the last two playoff losses are very similar, especially the pass-run ratio.

Did you happen to think that BGE - who really only runs well up the gut - may have been limited in 2011 by the fact that the RG was a new guy and that there was a rotation of guys through the center position due to injuries?

Enough with the myth that BJGE only runs well up the middle. His biggest gain in the superbowl game was 17 yards off a toss play where he went up the sideline.

In the SB, one of the primary run-blockers, Gronk, was ineffective due to injury and the new guy, Polite, just wasn't effective at all. Does any of this figure into your analysis? I'm pretty sure it did for BoB.

Then how come, prior to his one and only negative play of the entire game, BJGE was averaging 5.0 YPC? Brandon Jacobs was only averaging 4.1 YPC with a few negative plays, yet they kept pounding the ball with him. He had almost twice the reps BJGE did.

If he was unhappy with BJGE for some reason, why didn't he put in Ridley? What would it have hurt to put Ridley in for one or two snaps?

 

[MaineMan]

He is referring to the same BOB who may have done that during the regular season, but hasn't done it in the playoffs where it counts the most. The stats from the last two playoff losses are very similar, especially the pass-run ratio.

BoB does NOT make the final decision about whether the play that is to be executed is a run or a pass - Brady does. Period. If you don't understand that, I can't help you.

Enough with the myth that BJGE only runs well up the middle. His biggest gain in the superbowl game was 17 yards off a toss play where he went up the sideline.

Yes, it would have been more accurate to state that BGE runs CONSISTENTLY well only between the tackles. Virtually all of his (rare) negative plays have ahppened when he was attempting to run outside the tackles. His runs for the SB:
- four outside: -1 (first run of the game), 17, 2, 3
- six inside: 4, 4, 4, 7, 5, -1 (his last carry of the game)

Then how come, prior to his one and only negative play of the entire game, BJGE was averaging 5.0 YPC? Brandon Jacobs was only averaging 4.1 YPC with a few negative plays, yet they kept pounding the ball with him. He had almost twice the reps BJGE did.

BGE had TWO negative runs - his first and his last. That last run came with less than 4:00 remaining in the game. The next three Pats plays were the Welker drop, the incompletion to Branch and the punt. On the Pats next possession, they were behind and there was less than a minute left on the clock. You were expecting them to "keep pounding the ball" at that point? Really?

If he was unhappy with BJGE for some reason, why didn't he put in Ridley? What would it have hurt to put Ridley in for one or two snaps?

Both BGE and Woody were still trying to run the ball during the Pats penultimate drive (and both were also catching passes). How does that demonstrate anyone being "unhappy"? WRT Ridley, he had 87 carries for 441 yards, carries that included 5 breakaway runs (about 6%) totaling over 120 yards, numerous negative plays and two fumbles (due primarily to the way he habitually carries the ball into contact). How could using Ridley have hurt? Gee, I dunno.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Risk of Rids fumbling is greatly exaggerated. Simply recover 100% of any fumbles like the Giants do. Problem solved.

 

[MaineMan]

Risk of Rids fumbling is greatly exaggerated. Simply recover 100% of any fumbles like the Giants do. Problem solved.

Y'know, if the Giants ever do that against the Colts, Polian will been on the phone to the Competition Committee to complain about the way the ball bounces.

Oh, wait.

 

[Patspsycho]

BoB does NOT make the final decision about whether the play that is to be executed is a run or a pass - Brady does. Period. If you don't understand that, I can't help you.

I may be dumb, but hopefully not that dumb. The fact that BJGE was on the field for only 22 snaps, the same number of snaps the largely useless Ocho Cinco received (by comparison, Woodhead was on for 36 snaps) is not a product of Brady's desire to audible or not audible out of the play he is given.

Yes, it would have been more accurate to state that BGE runs CONSISTENTLY well only between the tackles. Virtually all of his (rare) negative plays have ahppened when he was attempting to run outside the tackles. His runs for the SB:
- four outside: -1 (first run of the game), 17, 2, 3
- six inside: 4, 4, 4, 7, 5, -1 (his last carry of the game)

For a total of only 10 runs. Just about the same number of runs he had vs. the playoff loss against the Jets.

BGE had TWO negative runs - his first and his last. That last run came with less than 4:00 remaining in the game. The next three Pats plays were the Welker drop, the incompletion to Branch and the punt. On the Pats next possession, they were behind and there was less than a minute left on the clock. You were expecting them to "keep pounding the ball" at that point? Really?

At the four minute mark is when we finally abandoned the run game (and I mean, using a real power back), in my opinion.

They yanked BJGE after the first & 10, and went empty on the next snap against the Giants nickel (3 safety look) who were in MAN coverage (the Welker drop was out of a busted coverage where Rolle lost track of Welker).

This is the ONE time I would have kept BJGE in there to check against this man coverage. The Giants were really cheating.

On the next snap, they go back to the one power formation. I mean, really? On a 3 and 11, you're going to try to fool them with Woodhead in the one back formation? The Giants are again in their nickel man to man, and you can see the safety drop back right at the snap to make this a cover 3, with a single backer to spy the middle. They showed utter disrespect for this formation.

We give the ball back with too much time on the clock, and gave the Giants a big fat chance to grab back the lead.

Whether or not this is the fault of the defense is another story that I don't want to get into, at this point. That would take up a whole new thread.

I am of the opinion that if we had kept using the Ace in the one back formation with a real power back, we would have kept going by forcing the Giants to stay away from their 3 safety package.

Both BGE and Woody were still trying to run the ball during the Pats penultimate drive (and both were also catching passes). How does that demonstrate anyone being "unhappy"? WRT Ridley, he had 87 carries for 441 yards, carries that included 5 breakaway runs (about 6%) totaling over 120 yards, numerous negative plays and two fumbles (due primarily to the way he habitually carries the ball into contact). How could using Ridley have hurt? Gee, I dunno.

By comparison- we could look at Brandon Jacobs who had a few negative plays and one fumble in the game, and what do the Giants do? Send him right back out to keep playing. That's called having balls and playing with confidence it's saying "just keep on playing, we're confident we'll find a way to win no matter what happens." Giving Ridley zero reps is scarcely playing confident, its saying "You're not playing sonny boy because we're scared ****less you may fumble again."