The 2018 Pats Defensive Line

[Chuck Walden]

Loving the addition of Clayborn and Shelton. One battle I'm looking forward to watching is for the last one or two interior DL spots. I don't know if we can keep Butler and Valentine.

 

[mgteich]

The article has us keeping only 8 DL's. I think that 9, or even 10, is more likely.

Loving the addition of Clayborn and Shelton. One battle I'm looking forward to watching is for the last one or two interior DL spots. I don't know if we can keep Butler and Valentine.

Breaking Down the New England Patriots Defensive Line - Last Word on Pro Football

 

[Tony2046]

This is actually a project I'm working on. Where were the breakdowns or weak points last season and how or if the new guys can upgrade their positions.

But initially I have high hopes for Shelton and would say that Branch was the weakest link last season so hopefully that has been upgraded. Shelton has shown that he can push the pocket, control the run and command double teams if he can do that here the rest of the front seven would be better simply by not having to sweep up Branch's mess.

Definitely something I'm excited to watch this coming season.

 

[Chuck Walden]

This is actually a project I'm working on. Where were the breakdowns or weak points last season and how or if the new guys can upgrade their positions.

But initially I have high hopes for Shelton and would say that Branch was the weakest link last season so hopefully that has been upgraded. Shelton has shown that he can push the pocket, control the run and command double teams if he can do that here the rest of the front seven would be better simply by not having to sweep up Branch's mess.

Definitely something I'm excited to watch this coming season.

Branch was such a disappointment for me last year. He was so good in 2016, but just fell off a cliff once he got paid. Shelton will definitely be a huge upgrade. A rotation of him, Brown, Guy and maybe Valentine should make for a really solid interior

 

[captain stone]

The article has us keeping only 8 DL's. I think that 9, or even 10, is more likely.

We barely have 10 worth keeping now, before injuries inevitably occur.
Our 2-down/short-yardage/goal-line DT depth is razor-thin.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

We barely have 10 worth keeping now, before injuries inevitably occur.
Our 2-down/short-yardage/goal-line DT depth is razor-thin.

Agreed on razor thin. What happened to Hageman?

 

[captain stone]

Agreed on razor thin. What happened to Hageman?

Still a free agent...don't know if he's still on the commissioner's double-secret probation list.

Wouldn't mind if the FO inquired about Johnathan Hankins, however.

 

[long distance]

The article has us keeping only 8 DL's. I think that 9, or even 10, is more likely.

Id guess 8 is a fair starting point. After that it depends on injury situation and practice squad. In 2016 they carried only 7 DLs for most of the season - Id guess due to good health (only minor VV absence covered by Hamilton) and the fact they could stash 2 solid DTs on PS (Hamilton, Kilgo). They tried to stash Anthony Johnson there first but Jetes took him away.

Last season they did carry 9-10 but it was injury plagued season with Branch hardly participating (and even Brown missing time) not to mention revolving door on the edge. Plus Grissom was ST only so you can take one spot away esp. with the new kickoff rules that should see more DBs and lighter (faster/more agile) LBs making the bottom of the roster. Also they couldn't find solid backup DTs to stick on PS (Hamilton injured, Blackson taken by HOU..). Plus Adam Butler surprised with his situational value amidst rushing calvary.

So many factors to play in before the season and even during the season. The one constant thing in the last 10 yrs was carrying 17-18 linemen all together (mostly 18) so a lot will depend also on how OL shapes up.

The way the NFL game is progressing incl. the new kicking rule . one less DL would seem more likely..

Then again . the lack of proper DL rotation was one of key differences between 2016 and 2017 rosters. Ironically, the rotation was much better/deeper on a thinnest DL roster of 7.

The problem this time is that while VV, A.Butler, Lee are all PS eligible (IIRC) . id guess there is no way they make it through waivers (unlike Hamilton, Kilgo, Grissom and even A.Johnson a couple of times).

Hope for good health and tough roster decisions..

 

[patsfaninpa]

Agreed on razor thin. What happened to Hageman?

Valentine was an important piece in 2016. He was missed last year. I doubt that many
teams have backups any better than Valentine and Guy. Adam Butler should continue
to improve too. Not sure how Shelton works out. But, our depth isn't bad at all
compared to LB.

 

[mgteich]

The number of OL's isn't relevant to the number of defensive linemen. What is relevant is the total number of front 6 or 7 defensive players. The norm used to be 15. 14 seems to be the new normal as we have moved to the nickel as our base defense.

So, I could see 8 DL's and 6 LB's, with a couple of LB's able to play the EDGE if necessary.

With regard to DB's, for me, 11 is the limit, even if some are STO players.
=====
For me, it is injuries that are key. If all are healthy, I see us keeping all 5 DT's (since a couple can play DE in certain sets): Brown, Shelton, Valentine, Guy and Butler. 4 DE's is OK: Flowers, Clayborne, Wise and Rivers.

At LB, it seems that we are OK with Hightower, Van Noy, Flowers and a run stopper (either Roberts or Bentley). For me, 5 LB's in the minimum (we have carried as many as 7), so one more should make the roster, perhaps someone not yet on the roster.

So many factors to play in before the season and even during the season. The one constant thing in the last 10 yrs was carrying 17-18 linemen all together (mostly 18) so a lot will depend also on how OL shapes up.

 

[signbabybrady]

The number of OL's isn't relevant to the number of defensive linemen. What is relevant is the total number of front 6 or 7 defensive players. The norm used to be 15. 14 seems to be the new normal as we have moved to the nickel as our base defense.

So, I could see 8 DL's and 6 LB's, with a couple of LB's able to play the EDGE if necessary.

With regard to DB's, for me, 11 is the limit, even if some are STO players.
=====
For me, it is injuries that are key. If all are healthy, I see us keeping all 5 DT's (since a couple can play DE in certain sets): Brown, Shelton, Valentine, Guy and Butler. 4 DE's is OK: Flowers, Clayborne, Wise and Rivers.

At LB, it seems that we are OK with Hightower, Van Noy, Flowers and a run stopper (either Roberts or Bentley). For me, 5 LB's in the minimum (we have carried as many as 7), so one more should make the roster, perhaps someone not yet on the roster.

Shelton, Guy, Brown, VV, and Butler is a good amount beef.
Flowers, Wise, Clayborn is a good start on the edge and that doesn't count Rivers and LBs on the edge.
I think the D line looks to have some good talent and numbers. It will be an interesting TC.
I'm happy with Hightower and KVN as starting LBs so I think the front 7 should be much improved compared to last year.

 

[long distance]

The number of OL's isn't relevant to the number of defensive linemen..

Everything is relevant in roster building.

btw - despite your limit they carried 12 DBs in 2016 and i wouldn't be surprised to see it again the way the game and kicking game are developing..

 

[TheRainMaker]

We barely have 10 worth keeping now, before injuries inevitably occur.
Our 2-down/short-yardage/goal-line DT depth is razor-thin.

I agree, there's nothing really special here. Trey Flowers is more of a complementary piece than a #1 guy. I'd feel a lot better about the D-Line with Chandler Jones here. That trade is looking pretty bad right now which is surprising nobody in the media has talked about it. The Pats were lacking an actual pass rushing threat, draft him, then trade him? Double digit sack guys aren't easy to find.

 

[mgteich]

The media has discussed this at length. Those who wanted us to keep Jones tended to ignore the cost, over $16M a year, with $50M guaranteed. Jones is NOT worth $16M a year more than Thuney plus whoever we use the rest of the $16M on each year.

We could have had Jones for one season. Instead we have Thuney and Mitchell.

If we wanted to keep Jones for longer, the contract would have cost about what it cost ARIZ, 5 years, $82M with about $50M guaranteed. That was NOT happening, given the other players that needed to be signed.
======
Would you really rather have Jones than Gilmore, Thuney and Mitchell (with some left over)?

I'd feel a lot better about the D-Line with Chandler Jones here. That trade is looking pretty bad right now which is surprising nobody in the media has talked about it.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

We won a Super Bowl the year we traded him. We then went to a second one in the next year. Meanwhile, Arizona has done nothing -- two straight years of 8 loss teams. I'm not saying we don't need more pass rush, but as @mgteich pointed out, the salary cap has been allocated toward other, important team-building resources.

 

[TheRainMaker]

The media has discussed this at length. Those who wanted us to keep Jones tended to ignore the cost, over $16M a year, with $50M guaranteed. Jones is NOT worth $16M a year more than Thuney plus whoever we use the rest of the $16M on each year.

We could have had Jones for one season. Instead we have Thuney and Mitchell.

If we wanted to keep Jones for longer, the contract would have cost about what it cost ARIZ, 5 years, $82M with about $50M guaranteed. That was NOT happening, given the other players that needed to be signed.
======
Would you really rather have Jones than Gilmore, Thuney and Mitchell (with some left over)?

We won a Super Bowl the year we traded him. We then went to a second one in the next year. Meanwhile, Arizona has done nothing -- two straight years of 8 loss teams. I'm not saying we don't need more pass rush, but as @mgteich pointed out, the salary cap has been allocated toward other, important team-building resources.

I totally get both of your responses. I wasn't a huge fan of Gillmore in Buffalo but he has proven to be a really good signing for the Pats. Mitchell was obviously an important part as to why they came back in that Super Bowl and Thuney has been a starter since day one.

In this situation, we just have to pick our poison. If they had Jones, they'd have nobody in the back end to cover anyone. Without Jones, they have a legit CB but nobody can rush the passer. If Wise Jr. takes a 2nd year leap and Derek Rivers contributes then the trade will look a lot better.

 

[captain stone]

I agree, there's nothing really special here. Trey Flowers is more of a complementary piece than a #1 guy. I'd feel a lot better about the D-Line with Chandler Jones here. That trade is looking pretty bad right now which is surprising nobody in the media has talked about it. The Pats were lacking an actual pass rushing threat, draft him, then trade him? Double digit sack guys aren't easy to find.

I was referring to the DTackles more than I was to the Ends, because I have no reasonable idea why Vinnie V is being given a free pass straight to the 53 when he hasn't done jack squat to deserve that pass. Our DT depth consists, as far as I'm concerned, of Brown, Guy, Shelton...and I suppose Butler, though I'm not his biggest fan...and that's it. We need at least one more, if not two more, professional-grade bodies to help us survive TC.

As far as Chandler Jones is concerned, he bought his ticket out of town the moment he walked into the Foxborough PD, though I wish that AZ had thrown in Kareem Martin, greatly mis-cast as a 3-4 OLB there, as part of the deal with Cooper & the 2nd-rounder.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I was referring to the DTackles more than I was to the Ends, because I have no reasonable idea why Vinnie V is being given a free pass straight to the 53 when he hasn't done jack squat to deserve that pass. Our DT depth consists, as far as I'm concerned, of Brown, Guy, Shelton...and I suppose Butler, though I'm not his biggest fan...and that's it. We need at least one more, if not two more, professional-grade bodies to help us survive TC.

As far as Chandler Jones is concerned, he bought his ticket out of town the moment he walked into the Foxborough PD, though I wish that AZ had thrown in Kareem Martin, greatly mis-cast as a 3-4 OLB there, as part of the deal with Cooper & the 2nd-rounder.

Shelton is the X factor there. Butler has shown flashes of rushing the passer on the inside. Vinnie has probably stuck around because there's nobody else to bump him off yet.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I was referring to the DTackles more than I was to the Ends, because I have no reasonable idea why Vinnie V is being given a free pass straight to the 53 when he hasn't done jack squat to deserve that pass. Our DT depth consists, as far as I'm concerned, of Brown, Guy, Shelton...and I suppose Butler, though I'm not his biggest fan...and that's it. We need at least one more, if not two more, professional-grade bodies to help us survive TC.

As far as Chandler Jones is concerned, he bought his ticket out of town the moment he walked into the Foxborough PD, though I wish that AZ had thrown in Kareem Martin, greatly mis-cast as a 3-4 OLB there, as part of the deal with Cooper & the 2nd-rounder.

Agree.

I think the coaching staff was happy with Vinny V's 2016 season and like his size and ability to pass rush a little but if the guy can't stay on the field then there really isn't much they can do with him.

I like Butler. He needs more playing strength. Seemed he was pushed around too easily at times.

 

[RayClay]

We barely have 10 worth keeping now, before injuries inevitably occur.
Our 2-down/short-yardage/goal-line DT depth is razor-thin.

Absolutely agree. We were whistling past the graveyard about front 7 depth and quality 2017 and it cost us the Super Bowl IMO. With luck and total health, our 2 additions might make us adequate, or we could be almost the same.