TE Witten's new contract and its impact on Daniel Graham

[VrabelMayeWin]

Hence the drafting of Ben Watson, Garrett Mills, and David Thomas.

Not sure about that. Mills will likely be an H Back like Byars was and we need 3 TE to play a 2 TE offense.

 

[JD10367]

Not sure about that. Mills will likely be an H Back like Byars was and we need 3 TE to play a 2 TE offense.

Yes, but if Watson proves to be the stud he's been hoped to be, and Mills can block and catch from his position, and Thomas is at least good enough to be a second TE, then it's a lot easier to pick up a 3rd TE than to pay Graham what he'll want. (Assuming, of course, everyone else mentioned can block well, and the O-line doesn't suck. I have high hopes. Heck, even Patrick Pass has improved his blocking over the years...)

 

[patchick]

Yes, but if Watson proves to be the stud he's been hoped to be, and Mills can block and catch from his position, and Thomas is at least good enough to be a second TE, then it's a lot easier to pick up a 3rd TE than to pay Graham what he'll want.

Now there's an excellent point. If David Thomas looks like he's developing into a legitimate starting TE by the end of the season, a big contract for Graham simply doesn't make sense.

Remember all the surprise when the Pats spent a #1 on Watson when they already had Graham? Now picture heading into the offseason with a strong season from Watson & Thomas behind you. Are you going to set your sights on the top free-agent TE on the market? Moreover, if you're that TE are you tempted by a team with 2 strong young players at the position?

 

[fgssand]

I respectfully disagree.

I think Graham is certainly a much better blocker, however, Witten has really good numbers and stays healthy. I have to say Witten is the better TE at this point, because he is able to play football every game.


Witten, 24, caught 87 passes for 980 yards in 2004. Last year, he had 66 catches for 757 yards. Witten has not missed an ygames over the past two years due to injury.

Graham, caught 30 passes for 364 yards in 2004. Last Year he caught 16 passes for 235 yards. Graham, in his four year career has often been injured.

I would love to see us sign Graham for a contract close to Wittens though. Nothing at all worng with 3 or 4 quality TE's - especially with the versitile role Mills will play if he can make the team t obegin with.

 

[Flying Fungi]

I think Graham is certainly a much better blocker, however, Witten has really good numbers and stays healthy. I have to say Witten is the better TE at this point, because he is able to play football every game.


Witten, 24, caught 87 passes for 980 yards in 2004. Last year, he had 66 catches for 757 yards. Witten has not missed an ygames over the past two years due to injury.

Graham, caught 30 passes for 364 yards in 2004. Last Year he caught 16 passes for 235 yards. Graham, in his four year career has often been injured.

I would love to see us sign Graham for a contract close to Wittens though. Nothing at all worng with 3 or 4 quality TE's - especially with the versitile role Mills will play if he can make the team t obegin with.

And this...I very much agree with...

I think Witten has shown to be a more integral part of Parcells' offense. He has done the most with his opportunities, stayed healthy and performed.

For whatever reason, I still prefer Graham. But that is a far cry from seriously overvaluing him. If we can get Daniel Graham for Witten's salary I will be pleased (signing bonus is another matter).

 

[JoeSixPat]

I think Graham is certainly a much better blocker, however, Witten has really good numbers and stays healthy. I have to say Witten is the better TE at this point, because he is able to play football every game.


Witten, 24, caught 87 passes for 980 yards in 2004. Last year, he had 66 catches for 757 yards. Witten has not missed an ygames over the past two years due to injury.

Graham, caught 30 passes for 364 yards in 2004. Last Year he caught 16 passes for 235 yards. Graham, in his four year career has often been injured.

I would love to see us sign Graham for a contract close to Wittens though. Nothing at all worng with 3 or 4 quality TE's - especially with the versitile role Mills will play if he can make the team t obegin with.

It makes no sense to me why the Patriots front office would pay Graham, Witten type money when he's come no where close to Witten type performance.

That would be VERY out of character for this front office to overpay like that.

I think it would be more likely that they would illustrate to Graham's agent the fact that Graham, a 1st round pick, has underperformed compared to Witten - a 3rd round pick.

As such Witten is getting extra compensation for his stellar first three years in the form of the $12 million over 2 years (as part of the 7 year $29 mil contract) to make up for his rookie contract.

Graham, while a good, even great blocker, has failed to produce the offensive numbers likely hoped for when the team used a 1st round pick on him, even though he received 1st round $.

For whatever the reason, it just doesn't look like BB has a ton of faith in Graham's pass catching ability - causing him to turn to guys like Mike Vrabel in goal line situations rather than a guy who is actually supposed to specialized in goal line situations. (Both Vrabel and Graham had 3 TD passes last year).

If Graham's agent wants to argue otherwise, I'm sure the team would be willing to offer him some very lucrative incentives to sign, allowing him to be paid what he's worth when he shows the offensive production we hope he can achieve.

In any event, unless he accepts a lowball deal this offseason, its unlikely he'll be considered for a renewed contract until he goes through this season - so he has all the incentive in the world right now to show what he can do, and provide the Witten like numbers we have always hoped he could.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Before we can even think of resigning Granham. I think it's important that Graham show us that he is healthy and has not suffered any permanent damage in his shoulders.

Offensive lines being equal, Whitten is a better pass catching TE than Granham because Whitten is better capable of stretching the field than Granham. Whitten can get the 8-12 yard per reception, Granham is more of a 3-7 yard receiver and then try to break some tackles.
However offensive lines being equal Graham is a much better blocker than Whitten can ever hope to be. Not even close on this one.

There is no doubt that the Whitten signing will affect the Patriots as they try to resign Graham, however just as he has done alomost since day 1, BB will have a dollar range in mind for Graham. If Graham's demands are within that range, he'll be resigned, if not, then he'll be allowed to find a better deal elsewhere.

 

[maverick4]

For me, it is a waste of time to argue over Dan Graham's pass catching abilities. The bottom line is he is rarely used as a receiver, or as a goal-line target, so his use as a double play threat is over-valued.

Consider this analogy/example:
The Steelers used to have Randal-El, a receiver who could double as a quarterback. Some people could argue that his versatility made him worth a premium price, even as his numbers as a #2 receiver were hardly impressive at all. So, the Redskins paid this guy top dollar as a #2 WR, even though his production has never been great, and his use as a potential QB will only apply for maybe one trick play every week.

Dan Graham is a great blocker, but he is rarely used as a double block/catch threat. He is used primarily as a blocker. In my opinion, we could save money and get similar Graham production by signing a cheap offensive tackle to play TE, who also has non-horrible hands.

It would not make any sense for this regime to pay Graham anything close to Witten-type money.

 

[JoeSixPat]

For me, it is a waste of time to argue over Dan Graham's pass catching abilities. The bottom line is he is rarely used as a receiver, or as a goal-line target, so his use as a double play threat is over-valued.

Consider this analogy/example:
The Steelers used to have Randal-El, a receiver who could double as a quarterback. Some people could argue that his versatility made him worth a premium price, even as his numbers as a #2 receiver were hardly impressive at all. So, the Redskins paid this guy top dollar as a #2 WR, even though his production has never been great, and his use as a potential QB will only apply for maybe one trick play every week.

Dan Graham is a great blocker, but he is rarely used as a double block/catch threat. He is used primarily as a blocker. In my opinion, we could save money and get similar Graham production by signing a cheap offensive tackle to play TE, who also has non-horrible hands.

It would not make any sense for this regime to pay Graham anything close to Witten-type money.

Yes, maverick, but as many people are probably preparing to tell you, you forget that the Patriots have often had an injured offensive line, so Graham wasn't able to be used as a pass catcher.

Of course, if Dallas had dealt with OL line injuries last season and Witten still produced, I suppose that would probably undermine that theory.

 

[Flying Fungi]

JSP and Maverick--it's almost as if the forum paged you when a Daniel Graham thread popped up!

 

[maverick4]

Of course, if Dallas had dealt with OL line injuries last season and Witten still produced, I suppose that would probably undermine that theory.

I like your point about how Vrabel or others are often brought in on the goal-line; it shows how Graham's supposed double threat ability is either not recognized or utilized.

To expand on the Randal-El example: Arguing about Graham's pass catching ability as part of his contract value is like talking about Randal-El's ability to throw accurate spirals; these skills are rarely used. We are talking about a tight end who averages two catches per game.

Another example: an NBA point guard who is great at passing and 3-pt shooting, but never shoots within the scheme of his team's offense because there are other great offensive options. The team COULD pay for all of his talents, but all his team really needs him to do, and all he HAS done, is handle the ball and pass. Paying for his shooting ability, when he shoots only a few times a game, would be a waste of money, since he's just the 4th or 5th scoring option.

Actually, I guess a better NBA example would be a 7-foot center who can shoot 3's. Same reasoning though.

.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I only ask y'all to consider that Belichick pays for real production even when its not too obvious. Recall Jarvis Green. Intelligent fans and Belichick know he is a very valuable player but if you payed for nominal production, Jarvis Green who isn't even a "regular starter" gets a phenomenal outsized compensation.

Why?

Because his production while not obvious is there, just like Grahams blocking ability and pass catching ability which is sacrificed fro the good of the team is recognized. He is a weapon when he is used; something no Defense dares overlook.

 

[rookBoston]

Free Agency Philosophy

Graham is our best all-around TE. That said, I think this is not a question about Graham's ability. This is much more about the team's philosophy on free agency.

BB's expects to turnover 20% of his roster each year. This isn't a matter of not liking some players, or being disloyal to good players. It's the way the "system" works, and the only way the Patriots can field a high quality team year in and year out.

Players like Andruzzi, Givens, Patten, Vinatieri, Ashworth, Hamilton, Washington... these are players that were quality Free Agents who we would take back for the right price. But letting them go does some important things for the team:

- It makes roster space for the rookies (and we have 8 or 10 each year). Rookies are important to the future of the team, by keeping the cap low, the team young. More important, having young players out-perform their rookie contracts maximizes the competitive advantage of our coaching staff, who are famously good teachers.

- It gives the same younger players the snaps they need to make a name for themselves. One of the most important things in the development of David Givens was letting David Patten sign with the Redskins and demoting Troy Brown to #3 WR and emergency CB-- remember Troy nearly signed with the Saints before signing for less money in New England. Same could be said for Warren replacing Hamilton, Wilfork replacing Washington. This year, letting Ashworth go clears the way for Kaczur to get legitimate snaps. Brady's a good example, too. BB had to get Bledsoe out of Foxboro before this could become Tom's team. The perfect counter example is Lamont Jordan, who the Jets were never able to get on the field the entire time he was in NY, because he was playing behind CuMar... and Vrabel in Pittsburgh is another good example.

- It reduces the total cost of the roster. It's amazing how the Patriots afford to have so talented players 4 and 5 deep on the roster. Well, it helps that starters like Koppen, Samuel, Givens, Wilson, Branch, Graham are all playing under their rookie contracts. Rookie deals are the best cap bargain in the business, if you draft well, teach well and give the players the opportunity to play when they're ready.

- Finally, it earns the Pats compensatory picks who turn into players. We got Kaczur because we were willing to let Woody walk. We got Stevenson by letting Andruzzi walk.

BB is willing to pay money for his "cornerstone" players, like Brady, Light, Seymour, Colvin, Branch and the happy few who "get their money".

Then there are players who are invited to test free agency, but decide to stay with the team for less than they could have made elsewhere: Bruschi, Troy, Jarvis... Neal?

Most of the rest are players that BB will allow to walk away... not because they're not good players, but because that's the nature of the system. To keep the team cap healthy and young, we need to turn over the roster each year. BB's counting on the fact that he's going to have a roster of players like Mankins, Jackson, Moroney, Hobbs, Sanders, Warren and Wilfork who are quality starters and absolute bargains.

.. and the fact that we get draft picks in compensation for letting veteran free agents sign with other teams is the device that makes this cycle sustainable over the long haul.

All this to say... that I think Graham will be allowed to test the FA market next year, just as Troy and Givens were. If he gets big money somewhere else, like Denver for example, then we cash in on a quality compensatory pick, give the extra snaps to Thomas, and draft another promising TE to groom in anticipation of Ben Watson becoming a free agent in his turn.

If Graham doesn't get the big money in free agency, we will offer him the type of contract that Jarvis Green, Ted Bruschi and Troy Brown signed-- good money but not top dollar. Givens, Vinatieri and Law all had good, not great, offers on the table and went elsewhere. I think that's what he'll be offered.

Comparing Graham to Witten is useful in estimating how much the open market will pay him, and what kind of Compensatory Pick we could get for him. But we're unlikely to match it.

Graham is a great TE and such a good blocker that he could play LT in a pinch. And he's a monster on ST. But, the team almost needs him to leave-- unless he comes back at such a reasonable $ that it's impossible to say no.

In the same way as Graham, I think a lot of our young starters (Warren, Wilfork, Koppen, Samuel, Wilson, Watson) will all be allowed to walk away in free agency. We'll re-sign a few of them, but probably only one in three.

 

[fgssand]

It really is this simple as written by my friend rookboston above:

"Rookie deals are the best cap bargain in the business, if you draft well, teach well and give the players the opportunity to play when they're ready."

We do draft well, we teach well, we do coach very well - hence, we win Superbowls. Naturally, having a roster with a few of the very best makes it all happen (Brady, Seymour, Bruschi, Vrabel etc etc)

 

[JoeSixPat]

I think we're kidding ourselves - and Graham is kidding himself - if he thinks he's met the team's expectations from when he was drafted. The truth of the matter is that 4 years after drafting him, we're still talking about Graham's offensive potential.

Graham was drafted 21st overall in the 2002 draft, and was considered the nation's top college tight end as the winner of the John Mackey Award after recording 51 receptions for 753 yards and six touchdowns as a senior and set Colorado school records for receptions and yards by a tight end.

There were plenty of predictions that he'd be both a great blocker AND a productive pass catcher, after a great combine and Senior Bowl, making him the pick of many as the best all around TE in the 2002 draft (better even than Jeremy Shockey), but thus far that hasn't happened.

The list of guys drafted later in the draft than Graham who have outperformed him as better overall TEs is a long one, with Witten being just one.

Until he proves otherwise, I look at Graham as what he currently is - a role player. While blocking as good as an OL might be a significant role, its still a role, and a career high of 38 receptions for 409 yards is no where near enough to earn him the title of "best overall TE" as some suggest. I know we're all "homers" at heart but let's use a little common sense here, shall we?

Ultimately I guess we'll find out just how much BB values the role Graham plays - but thus far the fact that there's been no indication he's a re-signing priority should tell you he's not in the same ballpark as Witten.

I do want him back, don't get me wrong - and hope he can use the focus of DCs on Watson to his offensive production advantage this season. But I value him most as a role player and wouldn't delude myself that he's the best all around TE when BB continuously overlooks the so-called best overall TE to throw to LBs in crucial goaline situations.

 

[DaBruinz]

I've long felt that after everyone initially failed to recognize Graham's blocking skills, it became fashionable for a lot of fans to wax poetic about how great it is to have a TE who can play like an OL, rather than a TE who can play like a TE.

The pendulum has swung so far in the opposite direction that many fans seem to equate his value to that of a TE who's good for 60-90 receptions a season - i.e. worth $4mil - $6 mil a season depending on which contract report is correct. (The Boston Herald reported 7 years $29 mil).

I know our OL has had injuried, requiring Graham to use those blocking skills more, but other teams have had OL injuries as well, and their TEs still put up signficant numbers.

The bottom line is that the Patriots are not going to pay Graham anything remotely close to what Witten received, and if Graham is expecting that, don't expect to see him back next year.

JSP - A few things.
1) I like Witten, but he's not near the blocker that Graham is. He's adequate at best.

2) Out of Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, McMichael, or any other TE, please name one (other than Watson) that had BOTH starting OTs go out in the same season for any length of time as Graham did last year with Light and Ashworth going down early (though Ashworth did come back). Better yet, name one that had their #1 and #2 RTs go down as the Pats did for Graham's 1st 2 years.

3) Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, and McMichael are all in the top 3 receivers on their respective teams. The Patriots vary based on their game plan. Heck, Deion Branch became the 1st WR since Troy Brown in 2002 to catch more than 60 passes. And Branch was THE goto guy and only caught 78. Much like Gates is the Primary Receiver in SD. And Gonzalez in KC. McMichaels is the #2 guy in Miami and Witten is Drewpy's safety blanket, much like Coates was when Drewpy was here with the Pats.

My point in all this is that you aren't giving credit to Graham for being a team player and doing what was asked of him by working on his blocking skills. He probably sacrificed some performance bonuses in the process since he was a pass-catching TE coming out of college.

Oh, and one last thing. Graham has dropped only 1 pass in the last two years. That's a marked improvement from his rookie year when he dropped 7.

I think that Graham is probably worth 3-4 million a year. Particularly if the O-line solidifies and he's allowed to pass catch more than 10% of the time which is what has been the case.

BTW, one only has to look at the start of the 2004 season to see the potential that Graham has. The only reason his receptions dropped off was that he was being asked to block, almost exclusively, while Gorin solidified himself in the position after Klemm and then Ashworht went down.

 

[JoeSixPat]

JSP - A few things.
1) I like Witten, but he's not near the blocker that Graham is. He's adequate at best.

2) Out of Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, McMichael, or any other TE, please name one (other than Watson) that had BOTH starting OTs go out in the same season for any length of time as Graham did last year with Light and Ashworth going down early (though Ashworth did come back). Better yet, name one that had their #1 and #2 RTs go down as the Pats did for Graham's 1st 2 years.

3) Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, and McMichael are all in the top 3 receivers on their respective teams. The Patriots vary based on their game plan. Heck, Deion Branch became the 1st WR since Troy Brown in 2002 to catch more than 60 passes. And Branch was THE goto guy and only caught 78. Much like Gates is the Primary Receiver in SD. And Gonzalez in KC. McMichaels is the #2 guy in Miami and Witten is Drewpy's safety blanket, much like Coates was when Drewpy was here with the Pats.

My point in all this is that you aren't giving credit to Graham for being a team player and doing what was asked of him by working on his blocking skills. He probably sacrificed some performance bonuses in the process since he was a pass-catching TE coming out of college.

Oh, and one last thing. Graham has dropped only 1 pass in the last two years. That's a marked improvement from his rookie year when he dropped 7.

I think that Graham is probably worth 3-4 million a year. Particularly if the O-line solidifies and he's allowed to pass catch more than 10% of the time which is what has been the case.

BTW, one only has to look at the start of the 2004 season to see the potential that Graham has. The only reason his receptions dropped off was that he was being asked to block, almost exclusively, while Gorin solidified himself in the position after Klemm and then Ashworht went down.

As they say on the big show, "you're making my point".

The very fact that we're still using "Graham" and "potential" in the same sentence suggests that 21st pick of the 2002 draft hasn't lived up to expectations.

I don't think I ever suggested Witten or any other TE was as good a blocker as Graham so I'm not going to bother with that one.

But if blocking were the end all, be all we'd have extra offensive linemen lining up at TE. That being said, the Patriots offensive schemes do benefit from good blocking, but that doesn't change the fact that offensive production, not blocking, is what sets the market value higher for TEs.

If you don't believe me look at the highest paid TEs in the game and see if you can find a common element there.... yup, you guessed it - they all have pretty impressive offensive production. So even if the Pats value Graham's good blocking and average pass catching production highly, they're not going to pay more than the market requires.

As to your points about injuries, again you made my point.

Witten did well even though the Dallas OL was a mess last year with LT Flozel Adams missing 10 games and Marco Rivera having a sub par injury plagied season, along with a C by committee of Al Johnson and Andre Gurode to allow a near league worst 50 sacks - Does that qualify?

The Chiefs also had OL injuries last year too which is why Gonzales had to bloclk more and saw a drop in production of "only" 78 receptions last year, but of course we don't want to hear about that because its a good excuse as to why Graham hasn't met his potential yet.

If your point is that one must have two healthy, skilled TEs to allow one or both to have above average offensive production and that Graham and Watson haven't been on the field together all that much, you fall a little short there as well. There are plenty of TEs who do well pretty much on their own, both in the recent and not so recent past... though I suppose it is possible we've all underestimated the blocking skills of Rod Rutledge and Mike Bartrum all these years... how else could Ben Coates have done what he did?

In terms of dropped passes, I'm not quite sure where the stats are, but someone else boasted that Graham only dropped 3 passes last year. I don't think Mike Vrabel had any dropped passes, which again raises the point of why the team looks to an LB in TD situations as much as they did with Graham.

I'm really not trying to bash Graham - just explaining why I don't think his market value is anywhere near as high as the true top tier TEs - and no matter how much we value blocking, the "market" really does not, - certainly not at the expense of TDs and offensive production - and we should not expect to have to pay for Graham as it if the market did.

 

[DaBruinz]

Hence the drafting of Ben Watson, Garrett Mills, and David Thomas.

I respectfully disagree.

Watson was drafted because of 3 reasons. 1st, He was the best over-all player available on the Pats list. 2nd, they needed a replacement for Chrsitian Fauria who was nearing the end of his usefullness. 3rd, the Pats needed a 3rd TE to run their 2 TE set they like.

Mills was drafted to be a pass catching FB or H-back. Much like Chris Cooley is or Keith Byars was. Or Larry Centers. Whether or not he actually develops that way remains to be seen. Same with David Thomas.

David Thomas was drafted because Fauria was gone AND Graham is a free agent next year. Belichick has tried to draft players 1 year in advance on when he has needed them. I can remember people wondering why they drafted Wilson and Samuel and then realizing that Law was almost gone. I can remember people wondering why they drafted Warren to be a DE and that was to replace Hamilton. They only played Warren at NT out of need, not because they wanted to. They drafted Hill because they didn't know if Seymour was still going to be around.

It remains to be seen whether David Thomas can develop into a Well rounded TE who can block and Pass catch. If he can, that makes Graham even more expendable.

However, I want to point out that Graham is only about 260 lbs. When you are taking on linemen who can weigh up to 60 lbs heavier than you, its going to take a toll on your body.. Its why you don't see any 260 lbs O-linemen. Most, if not ALL O-linemen are 280-340 lbs. IF, and its a big if considering that it hasn't happened in BB's 6 years as a coach, the Patriots can go a full season without an OT going down to injury, then Graham has a very good chance to show just how good he really can be. If not, then his true abilities aren't going to be show-cased and he will have to spend yet another season taking a beating on the O-line helping OTs out with their blocking assignments on an all too regular basis.

 

[DaBruinz]

As they say on the big show, "you're making my point".

The very fact that we're still using "Graham" and "potential" in the same sentence suggests that 21st pick of the 2002 draft hasn't lived up to expectations.

Umm.. No, I am NOT making your point. The ONLY reason we are using Graham and potential in the same sentence is because the guy has bent over backwards to improve an unheralded part of his game. And, because he's become one of the best, if not the BEST, blocking TE in the league because the Patriots needed another blocker on the O-line. Why should he be penalized for it, as you seem to be suggesting.

I don't think I ever suggested Witten or any other TE was as good a blocker as Graham so I'm not going to bother with that one.

But if blocking were the end all, be all we'd have extra offensive linemen lining up at TE. That being said, the Patriots offensive schemes do benefit from good blocking, but that doesn't change the fact that offensive production, not blocking, is what sets the market value higher for TEs.

JSP. You are a damn intelligent poster, but I am amazed at your statements. The Patriots offensive schemes had to CHANGE because Klemm and then Ashworth went down in 2004 and because Gorin couldn't handle the job alone. All you have to do is look at Graham's stats before Ashworth went down and after Ashworth went down to see that it was night and day. Graham was forced to stay in and block on almost every down because Gorin couldn't handle the assignments alone. Even last year, Graham was stuck having to block because Watson wasn't nearly as good, Light was out and so was Ashworth. Yes, Kaczur improved and helped to free him up. Yes, Watson improved, but not nearly to the level of Graham. But, by the time they did, Graham was already injured again from all the blocking he was doing.

If you don't believe me look at the highest paid TEs in the game and see if you can find a common element there.... yup, you guessed it - they all have pretty impressive offensive production. So even if the Pats value Graham's good blocking and average pass catching production highly, they're not going to pay more than the market requires.

I don't doubt that TDs and yards get paid the money. But I also don't doubt that Graham, given the chance, could perform in this offense and put up 40-50 receptions, and 5-10 TDs.

Again, you seem to be saying that Graham should be penalized because he sacrificed STATS for the benefit of the team.

BTW, why are you putting words into my mouth. I never said the Pats should pay Graham more than the market requires. I am just recognizing that Graham had to sacrifice personal glory (stats) for the sake of the team for 2 years because our OTs can't stay healthy and we're required to rely on a semi adequate reserve in Gorin.

As to your points about injuries, again you made my point.

Witten did well even though the Dallas OL was a mess last year with LT Flozel Adams missing 10 games and Marco Rivera having a sub par injury plagied season, along with a C by committee of Al Johnson and Andre Gurode to allow a near league worst 50 sacks - Does that qualify?

According to NFL.COM, Al Johnson started all 16 games last year. Guorode started 2. At guard. In place of Marco Rivera. So, I am not sure what mess you are talking about. Nor do I see how having an OT and a C go down compares to losing both starting OTs.

Last I looked, the Cowboys offense has defined receivers with Witten being the Drewpy's security blanket. In other words, on nearly every play, Witten was the safety valve at the absolute minimum and had to be ready for the pass. The same can't be said about Graham when he was given blocking assignments like taking on Julius Peppers and Brenston Buckner in the SB, now can it?

The Chiefs also had OL injuries last year too which is why Gonzales had to bloclk more and saw a drop in production of "only" 78 receptions last year, but of course we don't want to hear about that because its a good excuse as to why Graham hasn't met his potential yet.

Gonzalez didn't block more. Jason Dunn did. So did Kris Wilson. Gonzalez was still the Chiefs primary receiver last year. Its amazing how you want to ignore that the Patriots system is designed to spread the ball around and NOT focus on one player while also ignoring the fact that other teams offenses DO have a primary receiver who is the GOTO guy.

If your point is that one must have two healthy, skilled TEs to allow one or both to have above average offensive production and that Graham and Watson haven't been on the field together all that much, you fall a little short there as well. There are plenty of TEs who do well pretty much on their own, both in the recent and not so recent past... though I suppose it is possible we've all underestimated the blocking skills of Rod Rutledge and Mike Bartrum all these years... how else could Ben Coates have done what he did?

Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth. My point is that for your TEs to succeed, your O-line has to be doing its job or you have to be running Multi-TE sets with one definied as a blocker and the other as the pass catcher. Dallas and KC run the 2nd type quite a bit.

And, with Coates, he was Drewpy's safety blanket. The Patriots offense had a defined receiver chart. This Patriots offense does not. On any given game day, one of the receivers could be the primary target for the game because of the mismatches they create. Its how the Patriots are able to keep opposing teams off-balance. And that is something that I could have sworn a knowledgable Patriots fan like yourself has admitted to on more than one occasion.

In terms of dropped passes, I'm not quite sure where the stats are, but someone else boasted that Graham only dropped 3 passes last year. I don't think Mike Vrabel had any dropped passes, which again raises the point of why the team looks to an LB in TD situations as much as they did with Graham.

Graham didn't have any dropped passes according to Stats.com. Or, at the very most, he had one.

I'm really not trying to bash Graham - just explaining why I don't think his market value is anywhere near as high as the true top tier TEs - and no matter how much we value blocking, the "market" really does not, - certainly not at the expense of TDs and offensive production - and we should not expect to have to pay for Graham as it if the market did.

I never said you were trying to BASH Graham. However, all I am trying to do is point out what I believe are flaws in your thinking. You want to ignore the circumstances that have forced Graham into the role he is in now (the fact that the Pats have lost 2 OTs to IR in each of the last 3 years), if he is truly in a "blocking TE" role. You seem to want to ignore that other "Marquis" TEs are NOT asked to block nearly 20% as much as Graham is, nor have those players needed to. Not Gonzalez. Not Witten. Not McMichael. Not Gates. You want to ignore that the Patriots offense was/is designed NOT to favor one target over another, thus keeping the opposing defenses off balance and spreading the ball around. Why else would they have at least 9 players in double digit receptions in each of the last 3 years.

 

[DaBruinz]

In terms of dropped passes, I'm not quite sure where the stats are, but someone else boasted that Graham only dropped 3 passes last year. I don't think Mike Vrabel had any dropped passes, which again raises the point of why the team looks to an LB in TD situations as much as they did with Graham.

I wanted to address this seperately.

From what I have seen, the Patriots Goal Line formation sends out at least 2 TEs. For the last 3 years, Graham has been one of the 2. The others have included Fauria, Seymour, Vrabel and Watson. Graham, more often than not, lines up as an extra lineman and not as a receiver. Why? Well, in my opinion its because he's one of the best blocking TEs in the league and that is where his skills are best utilized. If Watson or Fauria had been a better blocker, they would have been the ones blocking with Graham out to receive. Same with Vrabel. Had the Pats felt that Vrabel was a better blocker, they would have kept Vrabel on the line. Instead, Vrabel, who I believe was a TE in highschool or college before becoming a LB, is out there because his hands are better than that of the other receivers, who also aren't good blockers.

Now, maybe I mis-understand what the whole Goal Line formation is about, but I always thought that you would want your best blockers out there protecting the line since the opposing team would have 8-9 players in the box trying to penetrate and either sack your QB on a pass or stop the RB behind the LOS on the run.