Serious thread time - How do we increase\better our pass-rush

[Kontradiction]

We needZ 2 blitz!1 :rocker:

 

[shirtsleeve]

pray the other teams o line get food poisoning prior to each game

Where do you think we are anyway? Indianapolis?

 

[WhiteWesWelker88]

Didn't the Pats try that his rookie year and he got eaten alive? Although he has the speed I don't think he's big and strong enough to be an OLB - unless the Pats switch to a 4-3.

As mentioned earlier, much depends on Cunningham's progress. In terms of what is happening this year, I think the effect caused by the loss of Ty Warren may be overlooked by many. After the free agent signing of Adalius Thomas and the trade for Derrick Burgess, I'm a bit leery to jump on board for a trade for another veteran DE or OLB, though that's difficult to judge without knowing who may be available and at what price. I like stinkypete's idea of both a DE and OLB in the first round, although I wouldn't object to an OL with one of those picks either.

noted..... but I do not buy that excuse.... sure he did not do a good job in his first year at that spot...... I do not think you should give up on him there. He had better get a few chances a game at that spot. ( I would) if I were the coach..... you r not losing out if you try him there a few times a game.

 

[Ron Sellers]

noted..... but I do not buy that excuse.... sure he did not do a good job in his first year at that spot...... I do not think you should give up on him there. He had better get a few chances a game at that spot. ( I would) if I were the coach..... you r not losing out if you try him there a few times a game.

So do you think Guyton would be successful as pass rushing 3-4 OLB?
Or do you think the Pats should use Guyton outside in a 4-3 formation?

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

You arent going to see a ton of exotic blitzes until he is confident in both the blitzers and coverage guys. Otherwise its a recipe for disaster.

I just don't get how a team like the Ravens can do it when their secondary has been seriously one of the worst in the NFL.

 

[pdangle]

I know I'm in the minority here, but so far this season I'd say our rush is about average with the league. I don't know how many games people really objectively watch this particular aspect, but we're really not that bad. Again about average, BUT... we have expected AGE/EXPERIENCE related improvement on our side, most other team do not. The NFL is a 3 year league. We can get significantly better, sooner than I and most people would believe. Like 10 games quick. Especially with good coaching, dedication and direction. Any wonder why BB demands this more now than any other team of his that I can remember.

Anyway moving on, I personally judge pass rush by time to pressure or hurry (or not). It's immutable. Compare the time Brady has in the pocket to the opposing QB's. He's got F'n all day. If we rushed like that, THAT would be terrible. Also the number of rushers must be factored. We don't blitz that much in case you didn't know. This leads me to one conclusion, empirically and semi-quantifiable.

I see decent pressure for how many rushers we send, but too many open open receivers too quickly for what we send. Not wide open, which is promising, but open enough. NFL qb's are good and rules favor the O. Can the pressure be better? Of course. But you'll need to rob Peter (secondary, run D) to pay Paul (line pressure).

Anyway right now, I'm not entirely displeased with the pass rush considering all the above, and I'm cautiously optimistic of future improvement.

 

[lillestroom]

Back in the Super Bowl years we did a lot of rushing / blitzing with the CB's and safties. I think we'll get back to that a bit as soon as the secondary knows how to properly compensate for changes by the offense when they realize the call.

Read that Baltimore have the most CB\safety blitzes in the whole league (and they seem to be a pretty dominant D).

Would personally like to see Chung rush the passer more. On more than one occassion this season, I've seen Washington go with one deep safety and one safety charging the QB\scouting the TE on the line.

 

[USCPatriot]

Trade for Suh. lol

 

[DarrylS]

Back in the Super Bowl years we did a lot of rushing / blitzing with the CB's and safties. I think we'll get back to that a bit as soon as the secondary knows how to properly compensate for changes by the offense when they realize the call.

I agree, have thought for a while now that as the secondary matures, the pass rush may come from different places...

The comments on Guyton are interesting, and in the past there has been discussion about his issues in pass coverage... cannot be an effective OLB unless you can cover a TE.....

 

[BritPat]

The Ravens get pressure because they have absolutely outstanding athletes and players in the front 7, which allows them not only to to create havoc with less, but they can be trusted to drop into coverage if needed and allow the secondary to blitz.

Ngata moves like a man at 270 pounds, Gregg is an utter monster, Redding has taken over from Pryce at being sorely under-rated, and then you have the likes of Suggs who has one of the best all round games in the league.

They have experience and talent - that's a heck of a package.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

In non passing situations our DL is handicapped by the 2gap principles, so the improvement in that area is to have dominant DL who can both 2 gap and rush out of a 2 gap technique, which is very difficult to do. Thats a sacrifice our scheme accepts.

This. We miss Seymour. He had a knack for turning it on in key situations. His total sack number might not have been the highest (as you might expect when someone is getting double-teamed), but I recall two instances in 2008 alone where he split a double-team to take the opposition out of field-goal range. I don't know the prospects well, but if there's a beast like him available at the Raider's slot (I'm thinking 2nd-4th), that would give us the kind of inside pressure that can collapses the pocket, especially playing next to Wilfork. We do have Brace and Warren already, but there are few positions more valuable than a dominant DT, so I think that would BB's first choice for generating pass rush for our inevitable Super Bowl run in 2011.


As for the continued fascination with Guyton and the pass rush, I don't get it. He's going from being one of the smallest positions in the front seven to a position where he needs to match-up with the largest position on the offense. He was a 4-3 OLB. That's a world apart from a 3-4 OLB. Guyton did have the fastest 40 and best vertical jump among LBs at the combine, but he also had the fewest bench press reps. That tells me that he's pretty skinny up top and will have difficulty fighting-off OTs. The only pass-rush move he will ever have from that position is an upfield sprint, and OTs know how to stop that unless you're an absolute freak with unparalled explosiveness. 40-yard speed does not translate well into outside pass rush explosiveness. If you insist on projecting pass-rush ability by combine stats, as opposed to what coaches see in drills and practice, at least look at the cone drill times, which measure how quickly you get off the ball and around the corner. Guyton was near the bottom of the pack on this drill. He can blitz from a 4-2 nickel position, but that's all he's going to offer in terms of pass rush.

 

[zipster9]

Because thats not Belichicks style. He is one of the most conservative coaches in the NFL, meaning that he is conservative when there is doubt and aggressive when he has complete confidence (such as a Brady O on 4th down). The first rule of BB defense is do not give up the big play. You arent going to see a ton of exotic blitzes until he is confident in both the blitzers and coverage guys. Otherwise its a recipe for disaster.
It has worked very well, and its wrong to question the scheme that has been so very successful rather than the enormous change in personel.
People have ripped/questioned the D for years, but from 2005-2009 the Patriots, playing conservatively and not trying to copy the blitz crazy teams, allowed the 2nd fewest points in the NFL (only 15 more than the least). That was through the transitiion of losing veteran players as well.
The system is fine. The players on the field are green. If you approach it from the system must be the problem issue, you'd be ripping any system we have, and if we played an aggressive blitzing defense you'd be quesitoning why the dbs can't stop all of the deep passes we are getting burned by.

This "bend but dont break" mentality has been average in terms of success in the last 3yrs. Not every concept will always work year-in, year-out.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I'd like to see more one-gap attacking schemes implemented on a part-time basis. This doesn't mean I want to get away from the two-gap system we've had so much success with. But it feels like our defense is so predictable up front, their OL knows what we're trying to do and they can set up their blocking game accordingly. Like they know Wilfork will line up on the center's nose and try to hold those gaps, so they can bring in a guard to double-team and push him a certain way to clear out space for the back.

If there were times we were attacking from the start, it'd change the way they tried to block our DL. They couldn't assume that Wilfork is going to hold the line and they can use the LG to clear him one way because Wilfork might have attacked the other gap.

Just like how silly little wrinkles in an offense can force DCs to prepare for them, we should have more wrinkles in the defense that force the OCs to prepare for a wider variety of things.

Again, I'd like to remain a base 3-4 2-gap defense. But I think we need to mix it up at times to stay unpredictable and cause more confusion on their OL. And I think that would cause more pressure than the constant blitzing, which leads to the D giving up huge plays.

 

[Ring 6]

I just don't get how a team like the Ravens can do it when their secondary has been seriously one of the worst in the NFL.

You act as if their blitzing is the cause of defensive success.
There are different defensive philosophies. Solid conservative philosophies work just as well as aggressive ones with good players. Its just a matter of how you want to approach it and what your taste for risk is.
From 2006-2009 the Patriots and Ravens were 1 and 2 in points allowed, separated by a pretty insignificant 15 points in 4 years.
The Ravens were aggressive, the Patriots conservative. The Ravens clearly had more talent on the defensive side of the ball during those 4 years.
It could easily be argued that the approaches fit the teams as well because the Patriots had a better offense and were usually superior to their opponent, so conservatism is smart. When you are the better team playing too aggressively either gives you big plays and widens the talent gap (which you dont need) or you give up big plays and narow the talent gap,. losing t eams you have no business losing to. The Ravens were a bad offense, and pretty much a .500 team that needed to be aggressive.
In the end, they ended up about in the same place.

Being aggressive is not the cause of a good or bad defense, its a preference, and its usually the effect of the players you have.

 

[jays52]

There's always ways to dial up pressure- it's one of the most scheme diverse concepts out there. It depends on what kind of overall personnel you want, what kind of sub-d you want, what kind of sub-d personnel you are going to run, what type of defensive philosophy you are going to have, what kind of safety and corner depth you have, the list goes on forever.

In terms of the Patriots I think that most of everything that can be said already has been. Especially true with Andy's point about the value of a guy who can 2-gap the run and get after it from the 2-gap techniques. It is also important to say how much experience comes into play with schematic diversity. Part of being a great "pass rush" team comes from veteran understanding of option blitzes, coverage checks, and a defender's pass rush moves. Before I get into how to draw it up, or what options are available, let's have a look at what a very simple man v man pass rush is.

Most defenders can be lumped into three categories when it comes to rushing the passer; speed, speed to power, or power. I think that the names are mostly self-explanatory, but there are some nuances in the game. Most speed guys are reliant upon their acceleration through three steps to blow by blockers. Most sacks or hits you'll see them get are either clean blindsides or with a tackle hanging off of their inside shoulder as they collide with the QB. The latter is the product of the favorite move of the speed guy- the rip. Speed guys will often take pretty substantive outside techniques. Invisible 6 or 7 techniques for example. This will force the tackle to get depth quickly to compensate for the distance. Speed guys are usually easily negated with chips from TE's, slot guys, and backs. Their typical counter move is a spin (see Freeny, Dwight), or if they are really tall they will swim across an over extended blocker. Speed rushers work on latitude. Power rushers take advantage of leverage and hand technique. They control the extension battle, typically occupy the low ground, and take advantage of players driving against their bullrush. They will often setup a clean break with repeated bullrushes. Once the offensive player becomes over extended towards contact, the defender will grab their jersey and use the momentum of the offensive player throw them away. This is highly effective because it actually boosts the defenders acceleration as they throw and slip past the blocker. Think of it as rowing a canoe paddle. Power rushers operate on longitude. Speed to power guys are your mid-size 43 ends, large 34 OLB's, and in some cases 3-techniques. Warren Sapp is a really good example of a guy who was a DT who had a speed to power game. For a while he made the 4i a legit NFL alignment. They have great burst to compliment great trunk power and a savvy understanding of how both set eachother up. Off ball engagement is all about balance and leverage. Speed extends, power removes balance and leverage. If a player is extended, they have no leverage, if they are driving against a bullrush, it is easy to pull them off balance by their jersey or swim them. A player getting depth against a speed move is highly vulnerable to a strike to the breastplate and a bullrush. These are the most dangerous rushers as they operate in three dimensions.

The best Patriot pass rushers were speed to power guys. They still have guys like this (Cunningham, Ninko, Mayo, Spikes, Pryor), and I believe that 75 is still quite capable of being a dominant 1-technique. I don't think that they have the schematic flexability yet to dial up the blitz packages, so the onus needs to be on the sub-d. They need to find ways to eliminate the sub-run from 1-gap techniques within the nickel. This will enable them to generate a better pass rush off of the defensive line utilizing twists, loops, and stunts. Once the young guys get more experience within the scheme, they will be able to dial up some more backer and secondary blitzes from their base 34 in addition to their 33 or 24 nickel. The best answer I can give is to generate rush in sub from the 42 nickel once they fix the weak zone and other sub runs. Once the younger players get more reps and experience, dial up the true design of the 34 and use confusion in both pressure and coverage to generate pressure.

 

[Ring 6]

This "bend but dont break" mentality has been average in terms of success in the last 3yrs. Not every concept will always work year-in, year-out.

Over theperiod of 2006-2009 (I know thats 4 years, but those are the stats I looked up when CHFF suggested our defense blew) the Patriots allowed the 2nd fewest points in the NFL, only 15 out of first. That is not average in terms of success it is phenomenal in terms of success.
I think few people will say that we had the 2nd best talent in the NFL on defense over that time frame, so the schemes impact is even more pronounced.
I'm sure if you only use 3 years instead of 4 there wouldnt be much of a difference.
Schemes are not inconsistent. Excecution and talent are.

 

[Ring 6]

I'd like to see more one-gap attacking schemes implemented on a part-time basis. This doesn't mean I want to get away from the two-gap system we've had so much success with. But it feels like our defense is so predictable up front, their OL knows what we're trying to do and they can set up their blocking game accordingly. Like they know Wilfork will line up on the center's nose and try to hold those gaps, so they can bring in a guard to double-team and push him a certain way to clear out space for the back.

If there were times we were attacking from the start, it'd change the way they tried to block our DL. They couldn't assume that Wilfork is going to hold the line and they can use the LG to clear him one way because Wilfork might have attacked the other gap.

Just like how silly little wrinkles in an offense can force DCs to prepare for them, we should have more wrinkles in the defense that force the OCs to prepare for a wider variety of things.

Again, I'd like to remain a base 3-4 2-gap defense. But I think we need to mix it up at times to stay unpredictable and cause more confusion on their OL. And I think that would cause more pressure than the constant blitzing, which leads to the D giving up huge plays.

We dont line up and do the same thing every snap.
Just s you desribed the 3-4 2 gap is the base defense, but we run many different plays out of that base alignment, which include blitzes, stunts, slants, and one gap calls.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

We dont line up and do the same thing every snap.
Just s you desribed the 3-4 2 gap is the base defense, but we run many different plays out of that base alignment, which include blitzes, stunts, slants, and one gap calls.

We do mix it up a bit, but compared to our offensive sets where we are able to mix up all sorts of different formations even on the same drive with the same personnel groups, the defense isn't quite as diverse yet.

I've noticed a lot more pressure this season than last from the line. My biggest concern is on the heavy reliance on blitzing. I'd prefer our line use the one-gap more instead of the blitz to generate pressure, as most NFL QBs will feast on predictable blitz downs.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I don't think that they have the schematic flexability yet to dial up the blitz packages, so the onus needs to be on the sub-d. They need to find ways to eliminate the sub-run from 1-gap techniques within the nickel. This will enable them to generate a better pass rush off of the defensive line utilizing twists, loops, and stunts. Once the young guys get more experience within the scheme, they will be able to dial up some more backer and secondary blitzes from their base 34 in addition to their 33 or 24 nickel. The best answer I can give is to generate rush in sub from the 42 nickel once they fix the weak zone and other sub runs. Once the younger players get more reps and experience, dial up the true design of the 34 and use confusion in both pressure and coverage to generate pressure.

Considering how dominant the BB 3-4 defense used to be, the current struggles could mean the scheme is either out of date, or the players are too inexperienced to execute it fully, and it seems that you're suggesting it's the players. Which would be my preferred resolution, since our young guys will grow and mature.

 

[jays52]

Considering how dominant the BB 3-4 defense used to be, the current struggles could mean the scheme is either out of date, or the players are too inexperienced to execute it fully, and it seems that you're suggesting it's the players. Which would be my preferred resolution, since our young guys will grow and mature.

It's certainly not out of date. When it has the players it needs it is a thing of beauty. The team is nearly complete in building out its talent, the experience what needs to come up a bit. The entire Belichick defense is based on being able to present their own personnel matchup problems through veteran experience with guys who can do everything. The skill sets and raw athleticism are there for the players they have acquired, they just need to learn how to play at the NFL level in order to regain dominance.