Serious thread time - How do we increase\better our pass-rush

[lillestroom]

I'm thinking long-term here.

An easy answer would be to trade for a vet for a lowish draft pick. But the way BB thinks, (which is long term) the chances are he's looking at the long-term viability of this D.

He is more than likely to draft DL in the 1st round. And the linebacking core may also see a draft pick or two.

But trades and draft aside, he do the Pats better the pass-rush and run-stop?

Talk formations, changes, sub-packages, player personnel changes, tweakings, blitzes, etc...

Serious posts please

 

[bucky]

Serious posts please

Bring back Moss!!!

 

[patsfan13]

Cunningham's developement is a big part of the solution. TBC will be ok as a situational player on the other side, Pryor on the sub pkg is a piece and Brace's continued development is aonther big piece. This is more an experience issue than a roster issue IMO. THe young guys are in place and need experience, this will be a better D by the end of the year than what we see now.

 

[stinkypete]

The 2011 draft is the key, as is the development of Cunningham.

Finally we are approaching a draft that should be particularly loaded with DEs and OLBs who appear on paper to be fits for the Patirots system. Our likely draft position may allow us to draft both.

If we wind up with a top 3 pick (IMO, unlikely) we may have Quinn fall into our laps. That would be the best case scenario. If we wind up picking in the 5 - 8 range (more likely), we're still looking at Heyward, Dareus, and some other guys who aren't coming to mind right now.

That leaves OLB for our second pick, likely in the 25 range. We could be in prime position for Von Miller or Greg Romeus.

This draft represents our best opportunity to improve the pass rush in years. Other issues (RB, CB) can be addressed via free agency, while offensive line depth can be addressed in round 2.

 

[flycessna]

I look at at a guy like Peppers who belicheck clearly loves. In chicago Peppers is given freedom to line up on either side of ball against whom he suspects he will have the most success. The result is he is creating havoc on apposing offenses by, in the very least, pressuring the QB and forcing them to make poor decisions..

What is all this about?? Well I dont think he would have had that kind of situation here. Aside from the fact they would have tried to move him to OLB and have him drop in coverage from time to time The cerebral kind of defense BB runs is just different. Would we be better with him? Yes! absolutely.. but for me anyways who isn't a defensive guru I have NO IDEA who is available or who the Pats could target and bring here and have that clay matthews kind of success..

So unless I start understanding this defense better and can figure out why Tully Bata-Cain is our leading sack rusher or the Pats change they way the run their front seven where it could be addressed in some big block buster deal.. I cant answer this question..

Anyone know what the draft for 2011 looks like... is it stacked? weak? deep in any particular position?

Food for though?? Pats have 2 picks in the first four rounds of the draft and we might be talking about a top 5 pick from the raiders... Is there any chance they draft an impact player in the first round with at least ONE pick?? Or are we still searching for value in the 3rd round and beyond...

 

[WhiteWesWelker88]

I still would like to see Guyton on the outside........




Ultimately we lack the animal that can break through on a good basis.
no talent for rushing the passer

 

[TheComeback]

The pass rush is improving and IMO, it's noticeably better than last year. Belichick asked himself the same question as the OP and his answer was to re-sign TBC, keep Ninkovich, and draft Brandon Spikes and Jermaine Cunningham. Spikes/Mayo have been pressuring from the middle and doing a pretty good job.

Whatever your feelings are on the offseason, the pass rush has shown improvement so far this year. I expect that by the end of the year, it won't be a major problem anymore. Guys like Cunningham and Ninkovich are showing improvement every week. From a roster standpoint, we are not adding anyone of significance this late in the season who can help us, so the pass rush will come solely from these guys learning and improving. I believe that with TBC, Ninko , Cunnigham, and Crable, we have enough talent to build a good pass rush, we just need more experience.

 

[Christopher Patriot]

We just need to release the Crable!

 

[PatsChamp88]

Become a Jets fan?

 

[Ron Sellers]

I still would like to see Guyton on the outside........




Ultimately we lack the animal that can break through on a good basis.
no talent for rushing the passer

Didn't the Pats try that his rookie year and he got eaten alive? Although he has the speed I don't think he's big and strong enough to be an OLB - unless the Pats switch to a 4-3.

As mentioned earlier, much depends on Cunningham's progress. In terms of what is happening this year, I think the effect caused by the loss of Ty Warren may be overlooked by many. After the free agent signing of Adalius Thomas and the trade for Derrick Burgess, I'm a bit leery to jump on board for a trade for another veteran DE or OLB, though that's difficult to judge without knowing who may be available and at what price. I like stinkypete's idea of both a DE and OLB in the first round, although I wouldn't object to an OL with one of those picks either.

 

[TheComeback]

Didn't the Pats try that his rookie year and he got eaten alive? Although he has the speed I don't think he's big and strong enough to be an OLB - unless the Pats switch to a 4-3.

As mentioned earlier, much depends on Cunningham's progress. In terms of what is happening this year, I think the effect caused by the loss of Ty Warren may be overlooked by many. After the free agent signing of Adalius Thomas and the trade for Derrick Burgess, I'm a bit leery to jump on board for a trade for another veteran DE or OLB, though that's difficult to judge without knowing who may be available and at what price. I like stinkypete's idea of both a DE and OLB in the first round, although I wouldn't object to an OL with one of those picks either.

I've seen Guyton on the outside a couple of times this year, but only in passing situations. Guyton has a lot of speed but no power and his pass rush moves never seem to get him open.

If we're going to use him as a pass rusher, it will be similar to the role a safety would play on a blitz, which is looking for a matchup against a running back or, even better, an unblocked look at the QB. Guyton isn't going to physically beat any lineman in the NFL at this point, unless it's with pure speed, and that rarely happens.

On your other points, I agree about going after d-linemen in the draft. Warren is coming back, but there's no guarantee he'll be the same player at his age. I see us getting a DE and then another OLB later on in the draft.

I'm not sure we'll need to invest a high draft pick if Ninko can develop into a player, because I think Cunningham is going to be one of our answers there. Then we'll have TBC as a backup and Crable as a depth option as well. So maybe we could invest more in the offense with the rest of the higher picks, unless, like I said, there is some special guy available who could be an instant starter at OLB.

 

[shirtsleeve]

No one has addressed scheme yet. Yes this pass rush can be more effective. This increase in effectiveness is starting, and should continue for the rest of the season. But do not expect the next incarnation of the Steelers or Old Ravens here. Not the Giants of the other night either. This D is simply not built that way. Personally, I'd like to see this team go with a 3-4 one gap blitzing D too, but it aint happenin any time soon.

Look for the NT to push the pocket straight back into the QB, and at least one if not both the DE's occupying linemen as they try to collapse the pocket in a general pressure. Dont get me wrong, if an O' lineman falls, or loses leverage, the DL will attack that gap. But only then. That leaves, without a blitz, game or stunt, a hybrid DE/OLB or a big OLB to provide the only attempted gap penetration or perimeter rush. Hence, TBC being our #1 sacker... The Pats have been doing more stunts and blitzes this season, and it has produced some results.

Would the addition of a DE/OLB tweener goin' 6'7"/300# with an 8' wingspan that can bench press a schoolbus and run a sub 4.5 40 help? Yup. But he has to be THE right guy for the scheme. (Oh and a 6'2"/230# SS that can blitz and hit like a hammer wouldn't hurt either)

Its not easy. And with the rules taking away the way DB's can play, and the advent of the fantasy football mindset among O.C's, I often wonder if this d has seen its better days. Still, I am not the coach, and its not my decision.

But do keep scheme in mind when looking for answers here. This team's pass rush will never be that kind of dominant with this D.

 

[Ring 6]

There are 2 very different areas of pass rush. Obvious pasing downs and all other downs.
The way the pass rush in obvious pass situations will improve is by the coverage improving. As the young corners and safeties improve, the defense can be more aggressive in rushing the passer. The NFL is so built now on the quick release and short pass that the only way to consistently get a rush and play aggressively is to be able to cover the short stuff. IF your corners are quesitonable you can't do that without a huge big play risk. Almost never will an NFL get consistent pass rush against good passing offenses without the blitz.
In non passing situations our DL is handicapped by the 2gap principles, so the improvement in that area is to have dominant DL who can both 2 gap and rush out of a 2 gap technique, which is very difficult to do. Thats a sacrifice our scheme accepts.

 

[zipster9]

There are 2 very different areas of pass rush. Obvious pasing downs and all other downs.
The way the pass rush in obvious pass situations will improve is by the coverage improving. As the young corners and safeties improve, the defense can be more aggressive in rushing the passer. The NFL is so built now on the quick release and short pass that the only way to consistently get a rush and play aggressively is to be able to cover the short stuff. IF your corners are quesitonable you can't do that without a huge big play risk. Almost never will an NFL get consistent pass rush against good passing offenses without the blitz.
In non passing situations our DL is handicapped by the 2gap principles, so the improvement in that area is to have dominant DL who can both 2 gap and rush out of a 2 gap technique, which is very difficult to do. Thats a sacrifice our scheme accepts.

I don't know why our DC does not try to implement exotic blitz formations, or pass-rush formations that are not predictable.. ala: Jets, Ravens, Steelers.

They need to mix up the look of the DL, which should help offset some of the lack of talent our DL has..

 

[Ring 6]

I don't know why our DC does not try to implement exotic blitz formations, or pass-rush formations that are not predictable.. ala: Jets, Ravens, Steelers.

They need to mix up the look of the DL, which should help offset some of the lack of talent our DL has..

Because thats not Belichicks style. He is one of the most conservative coaches in the NFL, meaning that he is conservative when there is doubt and aggressive when he has complete confidence (such as a Brady O on 4th down). The first rule of BB defense is do not give up the big play. You arent going to see a ton of exotic blitzes until he is confident in both the blitzers and coverage guys. Otherwise its a recipe for disaster.
It has worked very well, and its wrong to question the scheme that has been so very successful rather than the enormous change in personel.
People have ripped/questioned the D for years, but from 2005-2009 the Patriots, playing conservatively and not trying to copy the blitz crazy teams, allowed the 2nd fewest points in the NFL (only 15 more than the least). That was through the transitiion of losing veteran players as well.
The system is fine. The players on the field are green. If you approach it from the system must be the problem issue, you'd be ripping any system we have, and if we played an aggressive blitzing defense you'd be quesitoning why the dbs can't stop all of the deep passes we are getting burned by.

 

[IcyPatriot]

I'm thinking long-term here.

An easy answer would be to trade for a vet for a lowish draft pick. But the way BB thinks, (which is long term) the chances are he's looking at the long-term viability of this D.

He is more than likely to draft DL in the 1st round. And the linebacking core may also see a draft pick or two.

But trades and draft aside, he do the Pats better the pass-rush and run-stop?

Talk formations, changes, sub-packages, player personnel changes, tweakings, blitzes, etc...

Serious posts please

Back in the Super Bowl years we did a lot of rushing / blitzing with the CB's and safties. I think we'll get back to that a bit as soon as the secondary knows how to properly compensate for changes by the offense when they realize the call.

 

[Simkin]

idk... with our luck in the draft we ll get someone like gholston

 

[pdangle]

idk... with our luck in the draft we ll get someone like gholston

Why? We probably could of moved up and drafted him, but chose not to when the original "Gholston" was available.

 

[shirtsleeve]

Because thats not Belichicks style. He is one of the most conservative coaches in the NFL, meaning that he is conservative when there is doubt and aggressive when he has complete confidence (such as a Brady O on 4th down). The first rule of BB defense is do not give up the big play. You arent going to see a ton of exotic blitzes until he is confident in both the blitzers and coverage guys. Otherwise its a recipe for disaster.
It has worked very well, and its wrong to question the scheme that has been so very successful rather than the enormous change in personel.
People have ripped/questioned the D for years, but from 2005-2009 the Patriots, playing conservatively and not trying to copy the blitz crazy teams, allowed the 2nd fewest points in the NFL (only 15 more than the least). That was through the transitiion of losing veteran players as well.
The system is fine. The players on the field are green. If you approach it from the system must be the problem issue, you'd be ripping any system we have, and if we played an aggressive blitzing defense you'd be quesitoning why the dbs can't stop all of the deep passes we are getting burned by.

Thanks Andy, I guess you said it better than I.

 

[billdog3484]

pray the other teams o line get food poisoning prior to each game