Question about 2012 draft.

[muslimman]

I will be the first to admit that I am not avid watcher of college football and have limited knowledge about prospects coming into the NFL. But that doesnt stop my from arm-chair GMing and leading up the 2012 draft I really liked Lavonte David.

From my limited viewings of his tapes coming out of Nebraska he seemed like a stud. And at this point of his career he looks to me to be blossoming into one of top young LBs in the NFL. Obviously we took Hightower that year and I really do like him but I just cant choose him over David at this point in their careers. Its arguable that Hightower may end up in the long run being the better LB but right now their production isnt even close. In fact I like David better than Upshaw, Perry, Ingram and most LBs out of that class right now.

I understand many prospects get overlooked but what baffles me is even a casual college fan like me noticed David. My question is why did David fall so far into the end of the 2nd round? He was coming out of a big name and successful Nebraska defense, had good college production, even better athletic measurables and the tape to back all that up. What did and do you guys think of Lavonte David?

 

[Sciz]

I don't know about other teams, but it's easy to explain why Belichick passed on him. To put it simply, Belichick requires that every player in his front 7 takes on blockers. That was and probably still is the biggest question mark for Lavonte David. He's only 233 pounds, and at under 6'1", he's not really a guy who has a whole lot more room to fill out. Meanwhile, stacking and shedding blockers is something that Hightower, Spikes, and Mayo have all shown they can be exceptional at.

In the 224 games Belichick has coached in NE and either 3 or 4 starting LBs for each game, there have been a total of 11 starts by LBs under 244 pounds. There have been some LBs, such as Gary Guyton and Dane Fletcher (especially against the Broncos this year) who who had struggles against blockers despite being around 245 pounds. The Pats have had more contributions from huge LBs (Hightower, Vrabel, Thomas) and "big but played huge LBs" (Spikes, Ted Johnson) than any other team over the past 14 seasons, but have had essentially no early-down contributions from what we'd call the "small" linebackers. Even his athletic freaks (Mayo, Guyton, Collins) are at least 245 pounds, and only Mayo has shown that he can take on blockers well enough at that weight (but I'm confident Collins will get there).


So to make a long story short, I think that passing on David was very much a scheme decision for the Patriots rather than a player evaluation one. I can't be so sure about the other teams.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I don't know about other teams, but it's easy to explain why Belichick passed on him. To put it simply, Belichick requires that every player in his front 7 takes on blockers. That was and probably still is the biggest question mark for Lavonte David. He's only 233 pounds, and at under 6'1", he's not really a guy who has a whole lot more room to fill out. Meanwhile, stacking and shedding blockers is something that Hightower, Spikes, and Mayo have all shown they can be exceptional at.

In the 224 games Belichick has coached in NE and either 3 or 4 starting LBs for each game, there have been a total of 11 starts by LBs under 244 pounds. There have been some LBs, such as Gary Guyton and Dane Fletcher (especially against the Broncos this year) who who had struggles against blockers despite being around 245 pounds. The Pats have had more contributions from huge LBs (Hightower, Vrabel, Thomas) and "big but played huge LBs" (Spikes, Ted Johnson) than any other team over the past 14 seasons, but have had essentially no early-down contributions from what we'd call the "small" linebackers. Even his athletic freaks (Mayo, Guyton, Collins) are at least 245 pounds, and only Mayo has shown that he can take on blockers well enough at that weight (but I'm confident Collins will get there).


So to make a long story short, I think that passing on David was very much a scheme decision for the Patriots rather than a player evaluation one. I can't be so sure about the other teams.

Not a criticism here: Tedy Bruschi belongs in the Mayo athletic freak column, no?

 

[I.M. Fletcher]

I think why many here were pining for David and thought Mad Bill would pounce was that he had been playing with the idea of the big nickel the previous two seasons, and David was the clearest asset to fulfill that role. Its unfortunate that he went as early as he did, but I think its safe to assume David has been used more in Tampa than he would have here.

All the best to him, but like its been said, I doubt he gets on the field as much as he did there, although he would have propelled this defense up another level.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I think why many here were pining for David and thought Mad Bill would pounce was that he had been playing with the idea of the big nickel the previous two seasons, and David was the clearest asset to fulfill that role. Its unfortunate that he went as early as he did, but I think its safe to assume David has been used more in Tampa than he would have here.

All the best to him, but like its been said, I doubt he gets on the field as much as he did there, although he would have propelled this defense up another level.

OTOH, they had far less use for Chris Jones than Belichick did, so it kinda evens out.

 

[captain stone]

A couple of reasons why David might not have gone as early as his now All-Pro status
would otherwise dictate:

- 2012 was a pretty good draft year, with lots of good prospects at multiple positions.
Teams could therefore draft for need during the first 3 rounds and still feel confident
that they were taking one of the best players available regardless of position.

- And teams running 3-4 defenses would not be interested in David, who is strictly a
4-3 OLB. (The Patriots, however, had already declared their unspoken intention to move
toward a more traditional 4-3 by the drafting of 4-3 DE Chandler Jones in the 1st round.)

 

[mayoclinic]

I will be the first to admit that I am not avid watcher of college football and have limited knowledge about prospects coming into the NFL. But that doesnt stop my from arm-chair GMing and leading up the 2012 draft I really liked Lavonte David.

From my limited viewings of his tapes coming out of Nebraska he seemed like a stud. And at this point of his career he looks to me to be blossoming into one of top young LBs in the NFL. Obviously we took Hightower that year and I really do like him but I just cant choose him over David at this point in their careers. Its arguable that Hightower may end up in the long run being the better LB but right now their production isnt even close. In fact I like David better than Upshaw, Perry, Ingram and most LBs out of that class right now.

I understand many prospects get overlooked but what baffles me is even a casual college fan like me noticed David. My question is why did David fall so far into the end of the 2nd round? He was coming out of a big name and successful Nebraska defense, had good college production, even better athletic measurables and the tape to back all that up. What did and do you guys think of Lavonte David?

I called Lavonte David the best defensive player in the 2012 draft on this board 2 years ago (some I was joking at the time), and I stand by that assessment, though Luke Kuechly and Chandler Jones are in the mix. I thought that David had a rare instinctiveness that allowed him to transcend his physical limitations. The Pats had him in for a visit and obviously had some interest. I personally never considered Dont'a Hightower in the same class as David. Hightower will be a good player for us, but David is an All Pro and the best 4-3 WLB in the NFL, and possibly since Derrick Brooks. I think that BB may have been influenced a bit by size criteria, Alabama connections, and lack of clear vision over how he wanted the defense to evolve.

I don't believe in crying over spilt milk, but it's tantalizing to consider that we could have drafted Chandler Jones as 21, Harrison Smith at 25, and Lavonte David at 48. Imagine what that would have done for our defense:

Ninkovich - DT - DT - Jones

Collins (SLB) - Mayo (MLB) - David (WLB)

Smith and McCourty at Safety

Talib and Dennard at CB

David would be a 3-down player for us in that he could play the "big nickel" role and wouldn't be a liability in coverage. Spikes could have been used as a situational thumper and against run-heavy teams.

It would have been a nice way to go.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

We will have to wait to see what kind of player Collins becomes but his combine numbers, while similar to David's, overall were better despite being 3 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier.

David
---------
Height: 6005
Weight: 233
40 Yrd Dash: 4.57
20 Yrd Dash: 2.59
10 Yrd Dash: 1.56
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 36 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'11"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.22
3-Cone Drill: 7.28

Collins
--------
Height: 6034
Weight: 250
40 Yrd Dash: 4.59
20 Yrd Dash: 2.61
10 Yrd Dash: 1.58
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 41 1/2
Broad Jump: 11'07"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.32
3-Cone Drill: 7.10

Obviously the scenario Mayo presented is enviable but while we could have had David and Collins it is worthwhile to remember the great athleticism Collins brings. He may take a little while, though, having moved around so much in college.

 

[mayoclinic]

We will have to wait to see what kind of player Collins becomes but his combine numbers, while similar to David's, overall were better despite being 3 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier.

David
---------
Height: 6005
Weight: 233
40 Yrd Dash: 4.57
20 Yrd Dash: 2.59
10 Yrd Dash: 1.56
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 36 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'11"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.22
3-Cone Drill: 7.28

Collins
--------
Height: 6034
Weight: 250
40 Yrd Dash: 4.59
20 Yrd Dash: 2.61
10 Yrd Dash: 1.58
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 41 1/2
Broad Jump: 11'07"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.32
3-Cone Drill: 7.10

Obviously the scenario Mayo presented is enviable but while we could have had David and Collins it is worthwhile to remember the great athleticism Collins brings. He may take a little while, though, having moved around so much in college.

Interesting thought.

Collins was very high on my draft board last year, but I really didn't expect the Pats to go after him. I was quite pleased when they did so. I think Collins projects better to SAM and that David is a WLB. There's no doubt that Collins has superior physical skills, but David has rare instinctiveness that's difficult to find.

Mackenzie had an interesting profile out yesterday on Kyle Van Noy, comparing him to Collins with better instinctiveness and slightly less raw athleticism:

NFL Comparison: It may strike some people as a tad odd, but Jamie Collins. I’m comparing Collins to Van Noy as much as I am comparing Van Noy to Collins. For those of you who aren’t too familiar with Collins, he was recruited as a safety for Southern Miss but ended up playing defensive end, so he had no experience at his natural NFL position, 4-3 outside linebacker, until this year with the Patriots. He needs time to hone his instincts but, as evidenced by his quick transition from safety to defensive end in college, he’s a fast learner. Collins always flashed talent in coverage at the collegiate level but he was rarely was used in coverage. There is little difference in short areas but Collins definitely has more long speed, yet I’m not sure he will ever catch up to Van Noy’s outstanding instincts. In summary, Van Noy resembles Collins except in that Van Noy already has experience at his natural position at the collegiate level, unlike Collins. In 3 years, they should be the same player: a good pass rusher for a 4-3 linebacker that is outstanding in coverage and has lots of range against the run.

Kyle Van Noy Scouting Report- 2014 NFL Draft

It's a good read. I'd disagree slightly and put Van Noy in-between Collins and David. He doesn't have Collins' experience on the DL and isn't ever going to be a line player, but he has great range, coverage ability and instinctiveness reminiscent of David. It wouldn't be at all averse to seeing Collins and Van Noy on the same field, with Mayo in the middle. That would be a very athletic LB group.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

I wouldn't be at all averse to seeing Collins and Van Noy on the same field, with Mayo in the middle. That would be a very athletic LB group.

Whether we like it or not, I think we're done at LB for now. We drafted Hightower high and he's been solid and should get better going forward. With him, Collins and Mayo I think we're done.

Personally I would prefer a faster LB than Hightower who could play Safety so we could move from 4-3 to Nickel and back with more no huddle likely coming. I really don't know the plan but I could see Collins being that guy, I long for the base 3-4 days when I understood what we needed. As Collins played some DB in college I wonder if we may see some times when we go to a Nickel with our 4-3 personnel with Mayo and Hightower at LB and Collins being a big safety.

With a starting front 7, 4-3, of Nink, Wilfork, Siliga, Chandler, Hightower, Mayo, Collins, we could go to a Nickel with the same personnel dropping Collins back and to a 3-4 with Siliga, Wilfork, Chandler with Nink and Collins outside and Mayo and Hightower inside.

There's some assumptions there, including Vince returning, Siliga continuing to play well (and be able to play 5 tech in 3-4) and Collins being versatile enough at this level to play a little safety in Nickel. Siliga could be replaced by Kelly or a draft choice as necessary but he looks good so far.

For fun I compared Collins to Harrison Smith and other than the CoD he came out pretty well :

Collins
--------
Height: 6034
Weight: 250
40 Yrd Dash: 4.59
20 Yrd Dash: 2.61
10 Yrd Dash: 1.58
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 41 1/2
Broad Jump: 11'07"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.32
3-Cone Drill: 7.10

Smith
-------
Height: 6017
Weight: 213
40 Yrd Dash: 4.54
20 Yrd Dash: 2.59
10 Yrd Dash: 1.54
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 34
Broad Jump: 10'02"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.12
3-Cone Drill: 6.63


I'm not saying Collins should be a Safety just that he's athletic enough to play there in Nickel if our base gets stuck on the field.

 

[mayoclinic]

Whether we like it or not, I think we're done at LB for now. We drafted Hightower high and he's been solid and should get better going forward. With him, Collins and Mayo I think we're done.

Personally I would prefer a faster LB than Hightower who could play Safety so we could move from 4-3 to Nickel and back with more no huddle likely coming.

I agree on both points - I didn't like the Hightower pick, but we're likely staying with him. He's not a bad player, but I would have preferred a faster LB with more coverage ability. Like you, I don't see the Pats going in that direction, but I wouldn't be upset if they did.

 

[doesntmatter1]

I wanted David so bad that year. There were so many coverage lb that year that I felt we were going to get at least one. After David, Demario Davis was my next choice and I hated seeing him go to the JETS.

I like Hightower, but during the draft he was the exact opposite of what I wanted that year. I wanted a smaller 3down lb similar to Fletcher and Mayo, and instead I got one of the biggest and fattest lb I have ever seen.

I sometimes wish we would just fatten up Tavon and Ebner to give us the linebacker I so desperately wanted on this team. I honestly think they would work out better at lb than anyone in this years upcoming draft.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I wanted David so bad that year. There were so many coverage lb that year that I felt we were going to get at least one. After David, Demario Davis was my next choice and I hated seeing him go to the JETS.

I like Hightower, but during the draft he was the exact opposite of what I wanted that year. I wanted a smaller 3down lb similar to Fletcher and Mayo, and instead I got one of the biggest and fattest lb I have ever seen.

I sometimes wish we would just fatten up Tavon and Ebner to give us the linebacker I so desperately wanted on this team. I honestly think they would work out better at lb than anyone in this years upcoming draft.

Unlike the positions he has had to play, Tavon Wilson IS exactly what you were looking for.. I'm certain that BB wanted hm to be a coverage LB/SS. He just hasn't been able to play that position due to the injuries in the secondary and the Adrian Wilson fiasco.

 

[captain stone]

I called Lavonte David the best defensive player in the 2012 draft on this board 2 years ago (some I was joking at the time), and I stand by that assessment, though Luke Kuechly and Chandler Jones are in the mix. I thought that David had a rare instinctiveness that allowed him to transcend his physical limitations. The Pats had him in for a visit and obviously had some interest. I personally never considered Dont'a Hightower in the same class as David. Hightower will be a good player for us, but David is an All Pro and the best 4-3 WLB in the NFL, and possibly since Derrick Brooks. I think that BB may have been influenced a bit by size criteria, Alabama connections, and lack of clear vision over how he wanted the defense to evolve.

I don't believe in crying over spilt milk, but it's tantalizing to consider that we could have drafted Chandler Jones as 21, Harrison Smith at 25, and Lavonte David at 48. Imagine what that would have done for our defense:

Ninkovich - DT - DT - Jones

Collins (SLB) - Mayo (MLB) - David (WLB)

Smith and McCourty at Safety

Talib and Dennard at CB

David would be a 3-down player for us in that he could play the "big nickel" role and wouldn't be a liability in coverage. Spikes could have been used as a situational thumper and against run-heavy teams.

It would have been a nice way to go.

I'm now sadder for having read this.

 

[muslimman]

I'm now sadder for having read this.

Me too. I really wish I hadnt read it lol. But on the bright side we still got our share of studs and potential studs in the 2012 draft. A draft class that I expect in the next 5 years will prove itself to be on of the best in NFL history, so it really is moot to whine about players we didnt get.

 

[Sciz]

- And teams running 3-4 defenses would not be interested in David, who is strictly a
4-3 OLB. (The Patriots, however, had already declared their unspoken intention to move
toward a more traditional 4-3 by the drafting of 4-3 DE Chandler Jones in the 1st round.)

They were moving toward a 4-3, but it very much had a lot of the same principles as the old 3-4. It's not really as simple as saying that Lavonte David fits in a 4-3 but not a 3-4. It all varies based on what kind of scheme regardless of the typical alignment. For example, James Farrior played ILB for the Steelers in 2008 at 218 pounds. That's smaller than Rodney Harrison. Likewise, the Patriots switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 doesn't suddenly make a 230 pound linebacker any more of a fit than before.

 

[meatface]

Just remember you never know how things would have worked out. Perhaps Lavonte David doesn't do well with the Pats coaching staff or hurts himself in training camp or something. Its just a coulda, shoulda, woulda scenario thats completely useless.

 

[captain stone]

Our apologies for discussing a topic which you find completely useless.

 

[mayoclinic]

I wanted David so bad that year. There were so many coverage lb that year that I felt we were going to get at least one. After David, Demario Davis was my next choice and I hated seeing him go to the JETS.

I like Hightower, but during the draft he was the exact opposite of what I wanted that year. I wanted a smaller 3down lb similar to Fletcher and Mayo, and instead I got one of the biggest and fattest lb I have ever seen.

I sometimes wish we would just fatten up Tavon and Ebner to give us the linebacker I so desperately wanted on this team. I honestly think they would work out better at lb than anyone in this years upcoming draft.

I had both David and Demario Davis in my final mock for the Pats. I wanted to go to a more fluid, ameboid defense with LBs who could cover a tremendous area and drop into coverage but who still had enough sand in their pants to support the run.

OTG was also very high on Demario Davis in 2012, and on that general approach. He wrote an epic piece on the "Yankee 2-4-5 defense".

 

[superpats]

Size is important for a 3/4 olb cuz he is more of a de. N u may want one of yur ilb to have size to maybe take on a fb or guard. But even then if a guard is getting to a lb chances r he isnt making a tackle on that play. But the hightower pick is very puzzling n a very poor draftpick.puzzling due to he is a spikes ninko clone. Very poor pick cuz he was n is overrated at bama. He made no splash plays n was slow n with no explosiveness as a hitter/tackler n shows no closing burst at all in coverage or pursuit.as matter of fact his skillset in category of closing burst,coverage n pursuit is below average by nfl standards n he will continue getting torched in coverage and watching ball carriers run by him as he repeatedly watches helplessly. Had he played for michigan or some other college like ucla cal berkley or maryland he would have been mid round pick. Bellichick chose him more on nfl playbook ready as he usually does than on sheer talent.that continues to haunt bellichicks drafts as he drafts players based more on how coached up they already are than on nfl talent n ability. Thats y so many of his draftpicks r busts cuz his picks r coached up n know a playbook n schemes but they lack the talent to play in the nfl and compete against more talented players! Due to fact . Blichick has complex scheme n doesnt like taking time to coach up talent. This is usually due to him being overstretched coaching by himself n often has no coordinators. So he has drafted players who r close to being able to plug in his scheme with minimal coaching up n teaching his scheme. However as he is finally realizing it seems that these players lack raw talent to play in nfl n compete with elite talent. His scheme can only go so far,it cant compensste for all n any talent gaps n deficiencies as he hopefully sees guys like collins r excelling on raw talent! Hightower was drafted more due to being coached in a saban scheme than talent cuz the list is long of lbs better than hightower in that draft n its not even close! Burfict kuechly david kendricks wright guy for seahawks to name a couple! Salt in the wound he traded up to take that bum! Hightower is a slow useless bust! Accelt it n move on!