[Old 2020 thread] NFL Free Agency/Trade Rumors:

[DaBruinz]

???
Last year, signing a LT deal with Thuney would have SAVED $7M or more in cap money. This year, Thuney will COST lots of cap money. A long-term deal made more sense last year.

Perhaps $7M might have been enough to secure a player who might have helped at NT, WR or even QB.

You just go ahead and re-write history. You're good at that. Thuney was going to "COST lots of cap money" this year regardless of when he signed the deal. Just because a "long term deal might have made more sense last year" doesn't mean that they could get it done last year. You seem to forget that there were OTHER factors involved. Like COVID. For all we know, both sides could have said that they were happy with the Franchise tag. The ONLY thing we know is supposedly they weren't close to a long term deal. That's per Jeff Howe. You should also remember there is someone else doing the contracts this year. It's not Caserio.

 

[DaBruinz]

It's not a fact at all. They signed a bunch of guys they didn't need to sign after. They franchised Thuney before they offered Brady. We could have made $16 million in cap space by cutting guys who didn't even help us last year. The fact that BB franchised Thuney and THEN offered Brady tells us everything we need to know about his management of the cap.

Who are all these "guys they didn't need to sign" that you are referring to? Also, where do you get that BB Franchised Thuney before talking contract with Brady?

 

[venecol]

I DON'T want to trigger yet another BB v. Brady thread.

But I do want to know if we used all the money created under the cap by our opt-outs (i.e. did we extend people, etc., use up all the cap space)? I suppose the league year isn't very yet and we still have time to do that.

If we do, I can easily see the strategic value in taking a big hit last year, if we use up all that space.

Logically, you can make a case for letting Brady go--if you use up all that space.

I still wouldn't have done it, but... the logic is there.

overthecap.com has moved on from last year and is now only looking at this coming year, so I can't tell what happened to our cap situation for 2020.

Love to hear if we used up all the space.

Dude stop.

This is a 2021 thread.

 

[upstater1]

Dude stop.

This is a 2021 thread.

It's a 2021 question. 2020 season isn't over yet, are we going to max our cap to carry the savings forward into this year? Pretty simple question.

 

[upstater1]

Who are all these "guys they didn't need to sign" that you are referring to? Also, where do you get that BB Franchised Thuney before talking contract with Brady?

There are a lot of guys but Adrian Phillips and Beau Allen are just two.

I'd also point to Cannon's contract as a great place to save. Not to mention that the person I'm responding to is simply adding Brady's $20m to the cap without taking into account the dead cap money.

 

[upstater1]

Also, where do you get that BB Franchised Thuney before talking contract with Brady?

I didn't say BEFORE talking contract. I was talking about Brady deciding not to take the Patriots offer AFTER Thuney was franchised. In other words, the Patriots didn't take the Brady offer off the table after they franchised Thuney. Brady showed up at Kraft's house to tell him he wasn't taking the Patriots offer before he signed with the Buccaneers on the 21st.

Are you saying Brady didn't have an offer when he went to Kraft's house?

 

[venecol]

I had no idea Patriots had signed Roberto Aguayo. Lol

 

[Ring 6]

This has been thoroughly discussed on this board. Your numbers are wrong.

I can't even believe you're pursuing this when you very well know Thuney's contract was guaranteed when he signed it so there was no way we were cutting him whether we signed Brady or not.

If we needed to, we would have cut a host of people who would have cleared $16m off the cap. Cannon alone would have given us a huge chunk. Adrian Phillips would have gotten us to $16m with Cannon. But then add Beau Allen, Brandon Bolden, Matt Lacosse, Brandon King, Dan Vitale, Akeem Spence, etc., and we're in the upper 20ms with space. Now we haven't even discussed Brady's dead money hit from last year. So you're not even counting Brady's cap hit correctly. It would have been $20m - Brady's dead money. Significantly less than $20m. The $20m would be divided evenly with the 1 year extension into 2021.

But beyond that, we wouldn't taken on a bunch of new contracts from players that never helped us.

Once again, BB offered Brady AFTER Thuney was franchised.

This is an incontrovertible fact.

Patriots also finished with $20,331,213 in cap space.

Wait.
Now you are arguing that I am wrong to say the cap meant the patriots were not going to be able to improve because they could have just cut a bunch of players?

The 20 mill of cap was due to opt outs which occurred after the were any available players worth spending it on.

Let’s try this a different way.
The 2020 Patriots deteriorated from the 2019 Patriots because they lost key players that they couldn’t afford to replace.
It is indisputable the quality of the roster took a step backward because of the cap.
When newton signed for $1,000,000 the cap was all used up. FACT.
The team aside from QB was not as good as the not good enough 2019 team.
If you paid Brady 20 mill or even 10 mill you would have had to release players compared to what you had when Newton signed.
And you arguing if they brought Brady back the rest of the team wouldn’t have been worse because they could just cut guys.

Your argument has painted you into a corner.

 

[DaBruinz]

This has been thoroughly discussed on this board. Your numbers are wrong.

I can't even believe you're pursuing this when you very well know Thuney's contract was guaranteed when he signed it so there was no way we were cutting him whether we signed Brady or not.

If we needed to, we would have cut a host of people who would have cleared $16m off the cap. Cannon alone would have given us a huge chunk. Adrian Phillips would have gotten us to $16m with Cannon. But then add Beau Allen, Brandon Bolden, Matt Lacosse, Brandon King, Dan Vitale, Akeem Spence, etc., and we're in the upper 20ms with space. Now we haven't even discussed Brady's dead money hit from last year. So you're not even counting Brady's cap hit correctly. It would have been $20m - Brady's dead money. Significantly less than $20m. The $20m would be divided evenly with the 1 year extension into 2021.

But beyond that, we wouldn't taken on a bunch of new contracts from players that never helped us.

Once again, BB offered Brady AFTER Thuney was franchised.

This is an incontrovertible fact.

Patriots also finished with $20,331,213 in cap space.

You are conflating guys who were signed during the 2020 free agency and guys who were already under contract. Out of your list, Phillips, Allen, and Vitale were signed during free agency. Spence and Carl Davis were mid-season signings due to injuries. Phillips only cost 2.2M against the 2020 cap. Cannon accounted for 7.5M against the 2020 cap until he Opted out. So I'm not sure how you're getting to "almost $16M" for the two of them.. You don't even make it to $10M with Phillips and Cannon.

LaCosse, King, and Bolden were already under contract prior to the 2020 Free Agency. LaCosse and Bolden opted out. King was on IR all year.

Please list all the players besides Allen and Vitale that were signed that ate up cap room that never helped us..

What the Patriots FINISHED with has ZERO bearing on what they started with because, at one point after Brady had gone elsewhere, they were at less than $1M in free cap space. They only got SOME money from the AB grievance settlement and the AH situation in MAY. The remaining money came in July when the 8 opt-outs occurred. And Vitale is the only FA signing who "opted out".

Did you stop to think of any of the ramifications of any of the "cuts" / " not signing" you're suggesting?

Adrian Phillips - We'd have been left with Terry Brooks taking a lion-share of the snaps until Dugger was healthy.. Brooks makes Richards look like a capable safety. Brady wouldn't be able to cover up that huge of a whole on the defense.

Allen - Considering where the Pats were drafting, they weren't going to add a capable NT. Then what? You couldn't have foreseen in March that Allen was going to hurt his foot in May and be lost for the season.

LaCosse - You cut him and you're down to just IZZO on the team heading into the Draft. Is that really a sound move? Doesn't it signal to other teams that you are going to be desperate for a TE and then it would jack up the price for trading..

Bolden - A big-time special team player. He burned the Pats when they let him go for the year. It's why they were quick to re-sign him in 2019. If he hadn't opted out, he'd have gotten regular snaps after Burkhead went down.

Cannon - Cutting him would have left the team with Eleumenor, Cunningham, and Cajuste. It would have likely forced them to draft a OT prospect HIGHER than they did in Onwenu and Herron. Would losing Onwenu be worth cutting Cannon?

Now. You keep saying that it's an "incontrovertible fact" that the Patriots Franchised Thuney before they went to Brady. You're wrong. BB and Brady had a phone call on February 28th in regards to a contract. Thuney wasn't Franchised until March 16th.

Here are March 13th articles. The first one mentioning the talks between Brady 2 and BB weeks prior:

New England Patriots offer Tom Brady one-year contract for less than previous season: report

The chances of Tom Brady resigning with the New England Patriots before he enters the free agency market next week are not looking good after a report emerged Friday that head coach Bill Belichick offered him a lackluster deal during a phone call earlier this month.

www.foxnews.com

Report: Patriots offered Tom Brady a one-year deal at less than 2019 salary

And here is are March 14th article saying that Brady was offered a contract "recently":

Report: Patriots make initial contract offer to Tom Brady, two sides to talk again

The Patriots offered a one-year deal with less value compared to what Brady earned last season.

us.blastingnews.com

Patriots Told Tom Brady They Could Offer Him This Contract

A new report sheds light on the contract numbers Tom Brady and Bill Belichick discussed during their recent phone call.

www.nbcboston.com

And here is the March 16th article mentioning they Tagged Thuney:

Patriots Place Franchise Tag On Joe Thuney

The Patriots will be using their franchise tag on Joe Thuney.

boston.cbslocal.com

So, if you have information that they Patriots didn't sent an offer until after the 16th, Please share.

 

[DaBruinz]

I didn't say BEFORE talking contract. I was talking about Brady deciding not to take the Patriots offer AFTER Thuney was franchised. In other words, the Patriots didn't take the Brady offer off the table after they franchised Thuney. Brady showed up at Kraft's house to tell him he wasn't taking the Patriots offer before he signed with the Buccaneers on the 21st.

Are you saying Brady didn't have an offer when he went to Kraft's house?

Maybe you should go back and read what you said because what you're claiming to have said ISN'T what you said.

It's not a fact at all. They signed a bunch of guys they didn't need to sign after. They franchised Thuney before they offered Brady. We could have made $16 million in cap space by cutting guys who didn't even help us last year. The fact that BB franchised Thuney and THEN offered Brady tells us everything we need to know about his management of the cap.

Neither of those sentences are remotely close to you saying "The Patriots didn't take the Brady offer off the table after they Franchised Thuney". those sentences say "They franchised Thuney and THEN offered Brady a contract". One has ZERO to do with the other. That's the only FACT here.

 

[DaBruinz]

I had no idea Patriots had signed Roberto Aguayo. Lol

Happened back in December.

 

[Toofy]

I don't think we are going to get offensive playmakers to join us. So stack up on defense through free agency and draft the best available players on offense . Maybe round 1 for defense and round 2 for offense . Go with mariota and stidham and see how you fare. Sadly this year could be worse than last year but no point getting hung up on it. I just don't see a way for us to compete unless our defense transforms into something greater than what we imagined. With cap being close to 188, most teams with good qbs will get the offensive playmakers at a small discount. We will need to overpay till we find qbof.

And trade some 2021 assets for 2022. We do have quite a few young players, need to give them room to grow by allowing time on field . No point drafting too many young rokkies and holding a roster spot for them and not allowing them to play and in process releasing our first year players who could potentially take a second year leap . We need our second year and 3rd year players to get more experience. The rooks should be players who contribute this year or are injured high potential 5th and 6th rounders who can be pushed to IR and hopefully contribute in 2022.

Too many rookies are also waste of capital. It might be better used to acquire veterans. I would be content if we draft no more than 5 or 6 players in the first 7 rounds.

 

[DaBruinz]

Brady had his worst statistical year in 19 due to a lack of weapons.

That line right there is the biggest load of BS under the sun. Brady had a S**T year because of the issues on the O-line. You know. Losing Andrews right before the start of the season. Losing Wynn in the 2nd game. Mason and Cannon played injured all year and each missed a game so their play wasn't what we usually see from them.. Karras missed a game and forced Ferentz to start at Center.

Brady could have had all the weapons in the world and it still would have been his worst year, statistically. And remember, it wasn't until Wynn came back that the Running game turned improved substantially and the offense improved. By then, the defense had fallen apart.

 

[DaBruinz]

Wouldn't mind seeing Kirksey in a Pats uni..

 

[venecol]

Happened back in December.

It says 01/04 but yea.

 

[DaBruinz]

It says 01/04 but yea.

That is when he signed his Future's deal. They'd signed him to the PS in December.

 

[Uptown]

Henry had a good young qb in san diego. Has never gotten 700 yards in a season. How’s his blocking skills?

Elite...in a vacuum. He’s normally in the upper tier of the few TEs who can both block/receive at a high level, although he regressed after injuries the past couple seasons. I’m just worried about the injury history.

 

[mgteich]

You just go ahead and re-write history. You're good at that. Thuney was going to "COST lots of cap money" this year regardless of when he signed the deal. Just because a "long term deal might have made more sense last year" doesn't mea that they could get it done last year. You seem to forget that there were OTHER factors involved. Like COVID. For all we know, both sides could have said that they were happy with the Franchise tag. The ONLY thing we know is supposedly they weren't close to a long term deal. That's per Jeff Howe. You should also remember there is someone else doing the contracts this year. It's not Caserio.

I guess that I wasn't clear. I apologize.

I don't think that Thuney should have been franchised last year, and I don't think that he should be franchised this year. I'm fine with a long-term contract, even at top 10 OL numbers.

 

[mgteich]

Too many rookies are also waste of capital. It might be better used to acquire veterans. I would be content if we draft no more than 5 or 6 players in the first 7 rounds.

I strongly disagree. Rookies are by far the best use of capital.

 

[Toofy]

I strongly disagree. Rookies are by far the best use of capital.

I feel we need to give more playing time to the second year rookies an drafting them without playing them for a year seems a waste of resource. You can possibly do that for 5th round and beyond. Too many injured picks.. even if we draft 4 , those 4 should play the first year and contribute from second year. Just feel the concept if hiring too many rooks dilutes the value.