Now Tim Tebow wants out!

[PatriotSeven]

You can put together a highlight film for sure, and also for sure a lowlight film.

His Denver season: 46.5% completion percentage (when the spread option, as coach Fox put in, generally HELPS your percentages), and 123 yards per game.



He is not a QB, and I am a Florida fan, a Gator dad in fact, and want to see him do well, but I want him to give up the crazy idea of being a QB in the NFL, when his skills do not match the requirements. If he gives it up (and many statements he's made suggest he'll do anything it takes to win in any role) I think he could succeed.

Well everyone's seen the low lights but speak facts cause I keep hearing it, but nobody ever says anything other than the same regurgitated stuff I hear from ESPN and guys like Stephen A Smith. What skills do you believe he is missing? Point them out. Because I have seen him do just about everything I can think of that an NFL QB needs to do. Just not consistently. The only thing I don't know is how good he can read defenses.

As far as his completion %, when you realize that 1 extra completed pass a game would have put him over 50%, and Denver was one of the leading teams in dropped passes, it's really not as bad as it looks. When you realize he only threw 6 picks that year, there is a corresponding upside that goes with that low completion %. When you realize he was #1 in air yards per attempt, despite his 47% completion percentage at 12.3 air yards per attempt he is not that bad. He was ultra conservative with an ultra conservative coach who developed a new offense midway through the season. He threw that ball away a lot last year so he wouldn't throw picks.

MHR Primer: Not All Incompletions Are Created Equal - Mile High Report

If you break down his completion % you will notice it's really low on the sidelines, where he typically threw it away. He was upwards of 75% over short middle and this is where you have most of your traffic. And close to 48% deep middle which is pretty impressive(again, he was #1 in the NFL in air yards efficiency). His passer rating was a 95.4 at short middle, and 97.4, deep middle. His worst was short right and short left. This is where most QB's throw the ball away or ground it and he certainly did that a lot.

Now, yes the spread option helps, when you have someone who freaking designs the real thing, gets behind it and really knows what they are doing. John Fox mainly had him in read option plays 24/7. He really didn't get to run a spread option, with all its passing glory, with 2 tight ends sets or 2 backs out of the backfield like he is used to running for those short completions. John Fox was great at stopping the option when he coached college football but even he admitted him and McCoy were watching college games on TV mid way through the season and then would implement the plays the following week.

Those quick dumps to the running back or tight ends are a big part of it, and Fox never got that going for him. It was either read option(a designed running play disguised as a passing play out of the shotgun) or bust when it came to the short game. They didn't do a lot of the neat and easy little screen passes to tight ends or rb's you can do with the spread option which gives QB's their high completion %. It's not like it's something he can't do, since this is the easiest pass to complete in football. It was just either read option, bomb, or throw it out of bounds. It could have had a lot to do with Willis, who is not the best outside runner but all I know is if you look at the spread option the tight end and running backs as pass catchers are a big part of it. Tebow's primary 4 targets were all wide receivers. His tight end was all the way down at #5 and his running backs all the way at #9 and #12, who combined for 34 targets for the season. That's not the spread option. Check Newton and Wilson's stats for comparison. Cam's #2 target is his tight end, and #3 a running back. Wilson's #3 is his tight end. These guys get to dump the ball off and get those nice completion percentages.

I'm just saying.....Tebow had a 55% completion percentage in 2010, under Josh McDaniels mostly throwing from under center and averaging about 8 yards per attempt in his first couple of starts. I just can't put it all on Tebow when I know who he was dealing with in Denver and I know Fox. I've been watching the Panthers since 2001 and I feel confident saying there isn't a single coach in the NFL that is more stubborn at running the ball and completely ignoring the pass. The man loves to run the damn ball and he had a QB that could run like a running back.

In the Kansas City game, people made fun of him for winning by only completing 2 passes, one of which was a touchdown, but nobody ever asked why he only attempted 8! Especially when the week before he went 10/21 with 2 passing touchdowns and no picks. In the Kansas City game, they rushed for 244 yards.

Here's a sample of the first drive:

Just saying...I can't put this all on Tebow. And I can't really put it on Fox either..since it worked!

And then he happened to land with an offensive coordinator who actually copied the direct snap Wildcat idea from John Fox and ran it to death in Miami...lol. I mean there just couldn't have been a worse match up for Tebow than landing with the 2 biggest dinosaurs of the NFL.

Granted, he needs to work on things himself and develop more confidence, get more consistent and make some of those tighter throws. But keep in mind when you have the luxury of averaging 5.4 yards per carry on the ground it allowed Fox to keep playing him like that and win with him like that. Just not against a high powered offense, like us. But Fox and McCoy enabled this, likely to Tebow's own detriment.

It just bugs me when people say he can't throw, or he doesn't have the skills, when I already saw him to it with my own eyes. I mean he did it. I saw him do it. You can say he didn't do it consistently. Or that he will never do it consistently, but don't tell me he "can't" when I already saw that he can.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Let me take a step back for a minute. Are you seriously proposing the Jets roster is comparable to the Broncos roster?

The only line comparable to the Broncos would be the DB's with Revis playing. On Offense the Broncos hold clear advantages on the OL, RB, WR and TE positions. It's come as no surprise to me what Manning has been able to accomplish with the talent laden Broncos team. You can clearly see the difference between a QB playing the position and a player who thinks he's a QB.

I'll reiterate again, I've seen nothing to suggest that Tim Tebow makes the Jets a playoff team. The Jets don't have the talent level or distribution of talent.

What we're saying is that Tebow has demonstrated several times that he can lead a team with a good defense that keeps the score close and win games if the OC has enough smarts to enable him to play in a Ben Rthlsbrgr style. This is NOT saying he's in a league with Ben. It's a style likeness.

Had Tebow run the Jets ball control offense that he's repeatedly shown that he can do vis a vis Denver, he had an excellent chance of defeating the Tits. The Jets would still be playoff contenders.

You need to have watched the Denver games to understand his style or failing that read the post before this and others in this thread detailing his style.

 

[ausbacker]

What we're saying is that Tebow has demonstrated several times that he can lead a team with a good defense that keeps the score close and win games if the OC has enough smarts to enable him to play in a Ben Rthlsbrgr style. This is NOT saying he's in a league with Ben. It's a style likeness.

Had Tebow run the Jets ball control offense that he's repeatedly shown that he can do vis a vis Denver, he had an excellent chance of defeating the Tits. The Jets would still be playoff contenders.

You need to have watched the Denver games to understand his style or failing that read the post before this and others in this thread detailing his style.

Perhaps the respondents should start reading what I've written not what they've inferred from my post.

Tebow doesn't make the Jets better. The Jets roster is flawed. It's that damned simple for the numpties.

 

[BostonPatriot71]

It's The Tebow Cult that bases their ridiculous fanboy adulation on the religious aspect, they can't accept the fact that he's a lousy QB so they label the people living in reality as bigots, say they hate him, blame it on religion, etc, etc. It's complete nonsense, sane people just don't appreciate round the clock coverage of what amounts to the 53rd man/ST type player.

And then there are the people who don't like to be patronized just because they don't have a fantasy friend and he does.

Its like worshipping someone for openly declaring they believe in the Easter Bunny. Please BB keep him away from us.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

So now were using absolute definitions of a word to emphasise a point? Rightio chap.

Ausbacker wrote "I've seen nothing to suggest that the Jets would be a playoff team with Tim Tebow at the helm".

Oh I'm sorry....I didn't realize when you say you have seen "nothing" you actually don't mean nothing....more of a sorta-but not actually nothing.

Great tact to take: make a statement that says the topic of discussion has shown "nothing", then fall back on 'oh, we're using absolute definitions'. Point of fact, you said he has shown nothing. Point of fact, he has shown 'something' due to the W-L results with him at the QB position. Point of fact, you are wrong. And I don't mean wrong in that sorta, but not really wrong kind of way. I mean it in an absolute way

 

[Joker]

It just bugs me when people say he can't throw, or he doesn't have the skills, when I already saw him to it with my own eyes. I mean he did it. I saw him do it. You can say he didn't do it consistently. Or that he will never do it consistently, but don't tell me he "can't" when I already saw that he can.

I won't go into the other five thousand words of this post...let's just focus here and now on this snippet...

what is the object of playing NFL football?...I gonna go way out on a limb and say it's to WIN the Super Bowl.

why do they play a regular season?...for me it's to win enough games to get INTO the playoffs...whereupon you quickly find out if the team or specific key players have what it takes...

what you saw last season was a QB who rode the coattails of a good defense...a QB that played as badly as any in history for over 3/4's of the games played and made plays on one drive at the end to win games his defense kept his team in.

You say you "saw!!!!"....OK...I SAW the playoff game against the Patriots...if you SAW that game you would NEVER want Tim Tebow to be the starting QB on our team or any other team that played well enough to make the playoffs.

Tim Tebow plays a full season at QB for a team, and gets that team into the playoffs, with just respectable QB numbers and I might begin to agree with your stance...right now it's ludicrous.

 

[ausbacker]

Ausbacker wrote "I've seen nothing to suggest that the Jets would be a playoff team with Tim Tebow at the helm".

Oh I'm sorry....I didn't realize when you say you have seen "nothing" you actually don't mean nothing....more of a sorta-but not actually nothing.

Great tact to take: make a statement that says the topic of discussion has shown "nothing", then fall back on 'oh, we're using absolute definitions'. Point of fact, you said he has shown nothing. Point of fact, he has shown 'something' due to the W-L results with him at the QB position. Point of fact, you are wrong. And I don't mean wrong in that sorta, but not really wrong kind of way. I mean it in an absolute way

No matter how many times you put forward this drivel it still doesn't address my initial comment about Tebow and the Jets.

Tebow has shown nothing to suggest he would make the Jets a playoff team. There, I've typed it again for you.

 

[Arrington Planet]

He obviously can, there's plenty of QBs that couldn't have led that team to a playoff birth... (As an obvious example, the QB he replaced!)

But he did, with the Chicago Bears back in the '05 season.

EDIT: Ok, I re-read that phrase and I've realized that I misunderstood it.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

No matter how many times you put forward this drivel it still doesn't address my initial comment about Tebow and the Jets.

Tebow has shown nothing to suggest he would make the Jets a playoff team. There, I've typed it again for you.

It's an improvement over an argument that says words shouldn't be taken at face value.

You can repeat all you want that Tebow has shown "nothing" to suggest he could aid the Jets in their now failed quest for a playoff spot. Posting frequency doesn't change facts and/or errors. Fact: his W-L results last year is 'something' to suggest what his possible future results could be.
There, I typed again for you, the facts. This might result in you disregarding the facts again to write another post just like your last.....I suggest that only because past actions suggest what future actions could be..... :bricks:

 

[ausbacker]

It's an improvement over an argument that says words shouldn't be taken at face value.

You can repeat all you want that Tebow has shown "nothing" to suggest he could aid the Jets in their now failed quest for a playoff spot. Posting frequency doesn't change facts and/or errors. Fact: his W-L results last year is 'something' to suggest what his possible future results could be.
There, I typed again for you, the facts. This might result in you disregarding the facts again to write another post just like your last.....I suggest that only because past actions suggest what future actions could be..... :bricks:

It's quite simple - I don't think Tim Tebow has shown anything to suggest he would improve the Jets where you do. You're using the argument that he took a comparative team to the playoffs last year, I'm discounting that because the Jets and Broncos rosters are not comparable.

I said this from the outset. You're either incapable of comprehension or incapable of accepting that.

 

[UK_Pat37]

He should want out. He lead a team to the playoffs last year -- doesn't mean he's good, but it implies he doesnt suck. The starting QB is horrible, and yet they've given the job to an unproven and probably also sucks 3rd on the depth chart qb.

The situation pretty much sucks for him.

And the only times he's been used this season are in the wildcat on running plays -- if you know a qb is always going to run then it takes away the 'gained alot of yards cause the defense had to prevent the pass' type rushes

Tim Tebow is a pure athlete with very little footballing ability. He managed to get by surrounded by some decent pieces in Denver but there's a reason he hasn't even come close to living up to the legend he was a college. Physical ability can cover your weakness to an extent, but Tebow's weaknesses stem much further.

McElroy has decent upside. He impressed me immensely at college. I was hoping we might nab him late and develop him. Incredibly smart kid. A lot of the things people said about Brady during the draft process were said about him too. In the right system I think he could have shut people up. Not at the Jets though.

 

[Kontradiction]

First, this is a fantastic post, my friend. Like Jason Bourne, you've brought the debate to my door step. Now allow me to nitpick...

Ok I have to break this down..with gifs..because I thought that video was a pretty good example that goes against your nitpickings. Sorry for the size because I needed the length to make my points

I truly, truly believe there IS a middle ground on Tebow if people would just start using some common sense. It really isn't as black and white as people are making it out to be. He's inconsistent. That's all. That's where these extremes come from. He's been both as good as some say he has been and as bad as you are saying he has been. That is the truth. He has been both.

You could have ended it right there and we would have been fine. To me, he's wildly inconsistent. Some of the games last year were a perfect microcosm of Tebow's career. Absolutely horrific through the first three quarters, pretty good in the fourth when the defense was able to keep it close. When the defense couldn't contain the opposing offense throughout the entire game, it usually resulted in a humiliating blowout. Now onto the .GIF's...

Original video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnEuisuFFM8

First, progressions: 3:10. It's 3rd & 9 with Tebow in shotgun.

He snaps, play action fake, drops back, looks left, nobody open, scans the middle, doesn't have anything, finally scrambles to the right, makes a quick move to reset his feet(this is what I like about him cause he still steps into it) and completes a perfect pass outside along the right sidelines for a huge first down. And this was back in 2010. Is that not going through his progressions? To me, he's going through his progressions.

This is actually a good example of my point about his strongsuits. I will admit that this is one of the few times where he effectively had gone through his progressions in his career. However, let's not make the throw out to be some perfect strike. The Texans defense didn't contain and allowed Tebow to get outside the pocket. When he does that, he (like any other mobile quarterback) because a dual threat. He could have either ran or thrown. The corner bit hard on the possibility that he would run when he shouldn't have, because he had Lloyd effectively covered before that. As soon as he bit, he left Lloyd wide open. In this event, I would hope that a quarterback that made it as far as the NFL could complete that pass.

The spread option dual rush QB effect: Notice #30. He sticks with Lloyd as long as Tebow's scanning. The moment Tebow starts scrambling, he gives up on Lloyd to try and stop Tebow's rush and comes back towards the line of scrimmage, leaving Lloyd wide open to an easy, but still accurate, pass over the top and the Texans give up a 1st down on 3rd and 9. Easy money. This is the type of stuff these college kids are doing to earn their paychecks this year.

And that is exactly why you need to keep him in the pocket and make him come off his first read.

Deep Ball. At 1:29. 1st and 10. Tebow's under center.

Takes the snap, play action, drops back, steps into the throw and without hesitation places a 47 yard bomb over the top of 2 defenders, with the 3rd closing in. Ball has a nice spiral on it, it's a damn nice pass and a far cry from the "he can't throw" label that has been placed on him. How many times have we seen Sanchise underthrow or overthrow these?

Can't argue that. It's a very nice throw. Gaffney was his primary read on that play and got open and the ball was well placed. If Tebow could do that more often, he'd be a better quarterback.

In the pocket. At 2:20. 1st & 10. Tebow's under center.

Takes the snap, play action, steps up and into the pocket, steps into the throw and delivers a perfect pass to Lloyd over the linebacker and DB, but underneath the 2 DB's coming down to help. He stays in that pocket and takes a huge hit on the play. The ball's a bit high, which is something I have noticed he does, but in this situation, it was probably the right move to get it up and over the first 2 defenders. This to me is a beautiful play and another NFL caliber throw. Three out of 4 times Mark Sanchez would throw an interception on this play.

Again, this .GIF plays right into my point. The Texans contain on this one and keep Tebow in the pocket, but they fail to take away his first read and instead sit in a soft zone. If they take away Lloyd, Tebow won't be quick enough to check down and that play results in a sack and maybe a forced fumble. As for Sanchez, I've seen him complete throws like that before.

On the run. 3:48. It's 2nd and 10. Tebow's under center.

Takes the snap. Texans rush 3. He fakes the handoff, pocket is collapsing, he has pressure from 3 sides and with a defender in his face he makes a Tebow type throw that makes you go wow. You're right about this. He's very good on the run. Not a lot of guys in the NFL can twist his body while running that fast to overcome momentum and deliver this throw. 100% of the time Sanchez throws a pick on this play

This is an example of his strength. Get outside of the pocket, roll to his left, deliver the pass through the zone. If you man up on his receivers, take away his first read, and set the edge to keep him in the pocket (maybe blitz one of your ILB's up the A or B gap), you effectively either slow or shut him down.

The point is if you understand the difference between a spread option QB, and a pocket passer, then having to complete passes from the pocket is not as big of a requirement for these guys.

It is if you play him the way the Patriots and other teams down the stretch began to play him last year. Remember that Bills game? They did the same thing and it got downright ugly.

However, he can do this as well. But they make their money by being placed in the pistol/shotgun, extending plays and often scrambling to pass like in that first example. The most conservative anyone should ever try to be with Tebow is to let him play like Ben. But he still works much better in the spread option, cause he can run much better than Ben.

That's because he's always been a spread option quarterback. When he played at Nease, they were one of the first high schools that I can remember than ran a modified version of the spread option. Obviously he ran it at Florida and he ran it in Denver when they adapted the offense to fit his strongsuits as a quarterback. He is what he is. A mobile quarterback that's not very accurate or very consistent. The spread allows him to loosen up the defense with the threat of the run so he has more clear lanes to throw through. To defeat a spread option quarterback like Tebow, you keep him in the pocket and force him to go through his progressions, then hope he doesn't have a Tom Brady type throw in him. That's why I said earlier in the thread that quarterbacks like RGIII are not a good comparison. Griffin can make beautiful touch throws all over the field from inside the pocket and he can do it with more consistency than Tebow can.

All I'm saying is I have seen this kid do everything that is required of him to be an NFL QB. He's just not been consistent with it and has yet to be placed in a full fledged spread option offense with an OC who can actually take advantage of him. Again, I'm not saying he can be elite, but I think I have seen enough of him doing things like above to know for a fact he's a far cry from the "can't throw" labels people love to throw at him. No pun intended.

Nobody, including me, is saying that he "can't throw". Tebow certainly has moments where he can make beautiful throws. But he has more moments where he horribly misses throws or can't get through his progressions quick enough. That was seen last year when the second worst pass defense of all time shut him down because they didn't allow him to play to the few strengths he has. Those instances also make me believe that the spread option, while it is thriving now, will go the way of the dinosaur sooner or later.

The .GIF's were a good tool to use. And I can't argue with the downfield throw to Gaffney. That was a thing of beauty. But it's telling that you're having to use one game from 2010 against one of the worst pass defenses of all time in order to argue your point. There are more instances from last season and this season that support mine.

The above is the difference in having an offensive coordinator like McDaniels in 2010 who can really mix in everything that you can do with Tebow and what he did with Fox and McCoy(mainly read option plays) or Rex and Sparano(wildcat only).

You're certainly allowed your opinion. Personally, I thought Fox and McCoy did better with him because they didn't try to force him to do something he's not equipped to do. They allowed him to play a modified form of what he's comfortable with.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Excellent, observational fact based posts on Tebs capabilities and flaws as a QB.

 

[BananaRepublican]

What skills do you believe he is missing?

Have you analyzed his release? Sorry, he cannot work in a three second offense. Ever. His release is the antithesis of Dan Marino's or Tom Brady's. It's so slow that it looks like slow motion.

Only one fact needs to be known: John Elway saw no potential in the kid as a QB and that was after working with him. End of arguments for all those who can see.

 

[BananaRepublican]

Fact: his W-L results last year is 'something' to suggest what his possible future results could be.

John Elway disagrees with you. So does Rexy. Who are we to believe - NFL coaches working with him or you?

Here's a fact about your fact: His wins were not only razor thin with a great defense but they came before the league figured him out. He was effective because of novelty. He was like the Wildcat before it got figured out. But he got figured out and then what happened?

The Patriots game was a microcosm of that: The novelty of what he was doing fooled the Patriots for a quarter or two. Then the Patriots lowered the boom on him and his myth died right there on that Invesco Field.

 

[PatriotSeven]

The Texans defense didn't contain and allowed Tebow to get outside the pocket. When he does that, he (like any other mobile quarterback) because a dual threat. He could have either ran or thrown. The corner bit hard on the possibility that he would run when he shouldn't have, because he had Lloyd effectively covered before that. As soon as he bit, he left Lloyd wide open. In this event, I would hope that a quarterback that made it as far as the NFL could complete that pass.



And that is exactly why you need to keep him in the pocket and make him come off his first read.

I think your points are valid and have no issue with almost everything you but you're not putting at all together. And I have to nitpick again.

On that first play, all he did was a short scramble to the left...think about that. That's all it took to scare the crap out of that DB and make him come all the way back. You are correct that the Texans defense didn't contain him, but why? Well let me show you an extended version.

First give the O line some credit, especially #74 who stays with his man. Second give Tebow some credit because he moves away from the side of the pocket that's collapsing. Third, give the McDaniels and the playcalling some credit. People have a tendency of faulting Tebow's opposing defenses rather than giving credit where credit is due. The reason they didn't contain him IS Tebow. It IS his scrambling/rushing ability. He's making these moves back there. He's moving away from that collapsing pocket, is he not?

Watch #28 over there who runs that short route. He's completely open to a short pass underneath, and #56, the linebacker has to take him. That leaves no one to stop Tebow. Credit Tebow too because it's 3rd and 9, and he passes up on the short completion, baits the DB to come back, and gets the first down.

As far as #30, what were his options? He sees #28 on that linebacker and he sees Tebow getting ready to run with a blocker ready for him(#28 would end up as a blocker if Tebow takes off on the run). So either he stays there and gives up a long run... or he gives up his man to the safety and tries to stop Tebow. Tebow forced him to choose. The play had a 2 on 1 advantage at this point. They isolated a guy who was forced to defend the run and the pass at the same time. Good luck, right? Pick your poison.

These players have been trained in practice that when they see this guy taking off, they can't stay in pass coverage and treat him the same as Brady who's going to run for 5 yards out of bounds or a quick QB slide. That corner would have not come back to try and put a hit on Tom if that was Tom doing that scramble on 3rd and 9. They know, Tebow can break out for a huge rush or even a TD run. It's not so much the defense doing anything wrong, it's the fact that Tebow gives defenses fits. That's the dual pass/rush QB effect.

Again, this .GIF plays right into my point. The Texans contain on this one and keep Tebow in the pocket, but they fail to take away his first read and instead sit in a soft zone. If they take away Lloyd, Tebow won't be quick enough to check down and that play results in a sack and maybe a forced fumble. As for Sanchez, I've seen him complete throws like that before.

They do try to take away Lloyd, but again give McDaniel's play calling credit. You end up with 4 guys trying to get him. But to start, watch #81 who is running an underneath route outside. The DB has to take him leaving #54, a linebacker on Lloyd. It's a no contest and Lloyd burnt him. And there's nothing the other 2 DB's behind him can do, because Lloyd runs that stop route. He's not trying to run past them. All they can do is keep him from getting yards after catch, which they do. Great play call on first down. Great match ups. Tebow has at least 3 open targets to choose from here. Great pass. Once again, I repeat, McCoy vs McDaniels. That's a no contest too.

It is if you play him the way the Patriots and other teams down the stretch began to play him last year. Remember that Bills game? They did the same thing and it got downright ugly.

Not everybody has Vince Wilfork and BB. But what we did, wasn't something crazy defensively. We just have a unique advantage. First they forced a Tebow fumble both times and took the lead. They could no longer play their game because the defense couldn't contain the lead to a 1 or 2 score game. So we took away their rushing attack, and they were done because they were completely one dimensional. It was really more about our offense, than defense.

Oh and second, they used VW to crash the line. We have a unique player in this sense. I will mention more on it below, but the spread option gives you an 11 vs 11 match versus defenses compared to your typical offense which leaves you in an 10 vs 11 disadvantage against a defense. VW, equalizes that and then some. He makes it 11.5 vs 11 for defenses and we are often giving offenses 4-3 as well as 3-4 looks because of this man.

I remember the Bills game, I watched all of it. It wasn't the same gameplan though. At least not from Denver. They let Tebow pass against us and he had success to start off. The Bills game was a game where Fox called roughly 25+ rushing plays vs 5 passing plays in the first half. They ran on 1st down on every single possession and they had a lot of 3 and outs. Even though they scored, they gave up ridiculous field position, including a score on special teams. It was one of the most ridiculous play calling session I have ever witnessed and a horrible defensive effort by their punting unit. They fell down behind but Tebow still brought them back to a 14-17 game in the third quarter. But the Bills kept scoring, kept winning the field possession battle, and in the second half Fox or McCoy, whoever the hell was making these decisions, had Tebow air it out playing catchup, against a pass defense who picked off even Tom Brady 4 times in that same year. Tebow threw 3 picks and lost a fumble and it was game over.

The spread allows him to loosen up the defense with the threat of the run so he has more clear lanes to throw through. To defeat a spread option quarterback like Tebow, you keep him in the pocket and force him to go through his progressions, then hope he doesn't have a Tom Brady type throw in him. That's why I said earlier in the thread that quarterbacks like RGIII are not a good comparison. Griffin can make beautiful touch throws all over the field from inside the pocket and he can do it with more consistency than Tebow can.

If you understand that the spread option loosens up defenses, then that's that. That's why defenses have a hard time containing him, and have to pick their poison. But it's easier said than done, when you say they need to contain him. So give the guy some credit.

You can't take away everyone in the passing game, if you have to commit someone to stop the rushing QB unless you plan on playing man to man on every down. If you play zone, he's going to run on you or exploit you if your pass rushers get blocked. You need 11 vs 11 when facing a team running the spread option rather than 11 vs 10 when your defense is going against a pocket passer. Think about it. The best way to defend the spread option is man to man with a spy for the QB. How many NFL defenses are actually equipped to do this? 1 or 2? Seattle, 49ers maybe, and...that's it.

You're certainly allowed your opinion. Personally, I thought Fox and McCoy did better with him because they didn't try to force him to do something he's not equipped to do. They allowed him to play a modified form of what he's comfortable with.

This is where we disagree. I give credit to Fox for trying, but they really didn't put Tebow in a spread option offense with all the passing elements that you can use. It was a very one dimensional, read option, rushing based spread option attack. Like I said, Tebow's primary 4 receivers were all WR's in Denver. Those other spread option QB's are hitting their TE's and running backs like there's no tomorrow. If Fox knew what he was doing, he would have done this for Tebow as well. This is what Tebow did in college. He didn't have a whole lot of this in Denver. His running backs were all the way at #9 and #12 in targets. Not a lot of yards after catch either. It's actually hard to run a passing offense from the spread option when all you have to pass to are your wide receivers. Not easy.

Finally I completely agree he doesn't have the accuracy or touch RG3 has. No question. This is not even up for debate. But the other dual pass/rush QB's don't either. RG3 could easily be a pocket passer if he needs to be. They're nowhere near the same category. But I think he can be as accurate as Newton or Wilson and these guys are having similar success in the spread option. If you watch those guys, they're not that accurate. They're inconsistent too. Balls sail. Receivers have to make tough catches. They make bad decisions or poor desperation passes on the run. It's the spread option that gives them and their receivers so much room for error. But their play calling and designs in the passing game are much, much better than what Tebow had in Denver. Their offensive coordinators designed passing plays with a high utilization of their tight ends and running backs in their passing game. Tebow was missing this.

 

[PatriotSeven]

Have you analyzed his release? Sorry, he cannot work in a three second offense. Ever. His release is the antithesis of Dan Marino's or Tom Brady's. It's so slow that it looks like slow motion.

Only one fact needs to be known: John Elway saw no potential in the kid as a QB and that was after working with him. End of arguments for all those who can see.

What you are stating is no fact.

I've seen him release the ball quickly enough when he needs to, and I will take Tom Martinez's(R.I.P.) word over any one else's when it comes to mechanics, who said he can fix Tebow in 2 weeks. He obviously didn't think that there's something seriously wrong with his throwing if he made that statement.

And I will take Johs McDaniel's word who saw enough potential to draft Tebow, has closely worked with the Gators before and currently has the Patriots once again as one of the best offenses in the history of the NFL ....over John Elway's any day of the week.

But I don't think you can fairly say Elway saw no potential, let alone list it as a fact. Not that I put so much weight on what he says anyway. Michael Jordan runs the Bobcats too...

I think Elway simply saw the type of coaching staff he had in Fox and McCoy, the type of offenses they liked to run and believed in and he understood the type of quarterback Manning is. He's also a new GM and wants to be successful, and he made a no brainer decision. As a GM how much safer can it be than hiring Peyton Manning to be your quarterback?

Heck if Tom becomes a free agent tomorrow nobody's job is safe. Maybe not even Manning's. I actually question Elways intelligence if he wants rings, considering Manning's playoff record. Other than Farve I can't think of too many guys who missed the big game as often as Manning despite so many chances.

PS: Using Rex doesn't bolster your argument. This is a coach who thinks Mark Sanchez gives him the best chance to win. He believes playing football with a guaranteed negative turnover margin gives a football team the best chance to win

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

even with the gifs and all with the breakdown...tebow is by far the worst QB in the league...it's between him and gabbert

 

[ausbacker]

even with the gifs and all with the breakdown...tebow is by far the worst QB in the league...it's between him and gabbert

Everyone shows you their highlights package but rarely do they put forward the average performance package.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

i think those gifs show about half his completions as a NFL QB