Not for nothing, but....

[patfanken]

1. I have been trying to think about WHAT Mangini did to piss off BB so badly. Here are a couple of thoughts.

A. He recommended that he NOT take that job, because (a)it looked like such a bad one given the state of the program and the ownership issues. (b) He also didn't want someone so familiar with is program in the division. It was different from Saban, because Saban wasn't so intimate with the Pats situation. (c) He also might not have felt Eric was ready.

When Eric took the job, BB somehow felt betrayed

BTW- I don't think this was it, though I do believe BB thought all these things, but none of these reasons would make BB make Mangini an unspoken word.


B. When Mangini left, he either took some sensative material that he shouldn't have, or he had talks with some Pats coaches in a way that wasn't on the up and up.

BTW- This sounds more likely.

C. Either he or Tannenbaum somehow interfered with the Branch negotiations in an inappropriate manner. There was talk that the Jets leaked salary or draft compensation information that they shouldn't have.

BTW- This also sound likely.

BOTTOM LINE - I think it is likely a combination of the 3 things and will probably blow over in the off season.

Years ago, when I got my first Head Coaching job. I took over a program that had won only 3 game in the previous 3 years, and had some immediate success. Without thinking I made a reference to this poor record of the past in a response to a media question. (yes even in HS, some pimply faced kid is there to ask questions for the local rag ) In my mind I was trying to promote the effort of my current team and how far they'd come. To the former coach and a good friend, the quote sounded like a slap in the face. We didn't speak for a year. Eventually it go sorted out, but I understand, how something like this can happen.

2. Did anyone watch HBO's Inside the NFL this week. After watching the segment on the Pats/Jax game, it has hard to imagine that the Pats actually showed up to the game. It was 90% all about the Jags and MJD. THEIR highlights, THEIR comments, THEIR smiling faces. I was "shocked" to find out at the end of the piece that the Pats had won the game.

BOTTOM LINE - if the Pats are going to be happy flying UNDER the media radar in the post season, they will likely get their wish.

BTW- THEY DID have an excellent piece on Richard Seymour and the effects and manner of his father's death have had on him and his family.

3. I'm also getting tired of these pompous media asses constantly talking about how "mediocre" the league is and how there are all these "flawed" teams. DON'T any of these jerks follow their history. The supposedly GREAT teams of the Niners, Dallas, & Giants routinely lost 3 or 4 game in their BEST years. This season the AFC is going to have 4 teams with at least 12 wins. That is ANYTHING but mediocre!

The level of play in the NFL right now is the best its EVER been. The players are bigger, faster, more athletic, and are playing a game much more complex and intellectual, than even 15 years ago. The so called "great" teams, given the coaching and players of 15 years ago, would be at a great disadvantage playing against the coaching, and players of today. IMHO. Just as I beleive the 72 Dolphins would be hard pressed to win a single game against a team from the current era..

4. I think the Polian Bullying Era is over. I DO believe that the competition commitee is going to DO something about the 3 areas of the game that need IMMEDIATE fixing. 1. The roughing the pass rule/blow to the head. 2. the game changing PI rule. 3. Defensive holding.

I'm not sure how they would address these issues, but I do beleive they WILL be addressed in some manner. As to how I would do it....

A. Officials will have to see some malice before calling a blow to the head or a RTP call. I think calls like that on Seymour will still get called, but the more ridiculous calls (ie Wilfork vs Miami) will slide by.

B. I would like the refs to have to see that the receiver was being interferred with, not just contacted with before throwing a flag. Also I make them make sure the pass was catchable before throwing a flag. And while we are at it, what exactly is wrong with fact guarding??

c. Again the emphasis will go back to the old hold rule. First that the contact after 5 yards ACTUALLY IMPEDED the receiver from running the route, not just mere contact.

 

[Jacky Roberts]

I think it was the Branch thing.

 

[patsox23]

BB was effusive in his praise of Mangini when EM left for the jets, so I seriously doubt it had much to do with that. If anyone could understand Mangini's decision - even if he disagreed with it - it's Belichick. I think Jacky's right and this had everything to do with Deion Branch. Not sure how, but that is when all of the animus started to rear its ugly face.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

1. Mangini v. Belichick **yawn**
2. Objects in the mirror may be close then you think...
3. The teams of our childhood...just be glad you and I never grew up (to be serious sports journalists with our SU journalism degrees).
4. Wishful thinking, it's like voters who know the Senator will put a chicken in every pot, it never works out, but you do have the power to try...

 

[Lansdowne]

A combination of the Branch tampering thing, and you also have to remember when BB left the HC job he was handed with the Jets to coach for the Patriots.

 

[psychoPat]

....
4. I think the Polian Bullying Era is over. I DO believe that the competition commitee is going to DO something about the 3 areas of the game that need IMMEDIATE fixing. 1. The roughing the pass rule/blow to the head. 2. the game changing PI rule. 3. Defensive holding.

....
A. Officials will have to see some malice before calling a blow to the head or a RTP call. I think calls like that on Seymour will still get called, but the more ridiculous calls (ie Wilfork vs Miami) will slide by.

B. I would like the refs to have to see that the receiver was being interferred with, not just contacted with before throwing a flag. Also I make them make sure the pass was catchable before throwing a flag. And while we are at it, what exactly is wrong with fact guarding??

c. Again the emphasis will go back to the old hold rule. First that the contact after 5 yards ACTUALLY IMPEDED the receiver from running the route, not just mere contact.

Hope you're right!

Bogus roughing and bogus PI calls
often make a stupendous difference to the momentum of a game.

While we are advising the Competition Committee ...
why can't the NFL get its video review right NEARLY ALL THE TIME
(instead of just Most of The Time, which is now)?
The big NCAA conferences have done a far better job of video review this season than has the NFL
- nothwithstanding the Oklahoma-Oregon fiasco.

Bring back "Irrefutable Video Evidence"
as the prerequisite to overturn!

 

[Drewwho]

I do not think Branch has too much to do with it, a little bit, but not the real reason.

From what insiders have said, Mangini tried to get players, coach and other staff to come with him. He succeeded with Chatham and also with some administration and he campaigned Pepper Johnson hard and almost got him forcing the Pats to restructure his contract and pay him more. This is what has BB steamed at Mangini. You don't pull that crap to the guy that gave you a shot and was your mentor.

After that, came Branch and that fueled the fire, but is started about a week after Mangini signed with the Jets...NOT COOL!!!!

Another interesting point I heard from Curran today on EEI was that BB wore that AFC East Champ hat last week to dig it to Mangini as a reminder of who is on top and for Mangini to not forget it. I see this rivalary heating up more and more and I think BB is dreaming of getting the Jets in the Playoffs. I think BB's players will destroy Mangini after what happened here at Gillette earlier in the year and of course for BB due to his sour feelings toward Mangini. The players now know how deep his distain for Mangini run and I am sure they would fight to the death to win that one for Bill!

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Regarding Mangini, some excellent speculation by PONY here

http://208.109.107.176/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=272809&postcount=1

As to those rule changes, I'm very skeptical.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Well, Ken, there are two things to consider.

First, as was pointed out, there was no animosity when the Perfidious Penguin took the job -- even if BB thought it wasn't the right time, he congratulated him and wished him well.

Second, the stated grounds for the Patriots' tampering complaint against the Jets are obviously absurd. As stated, the Patriots gave Branch and his agent permission to seek a trade and discuss it with other teams, but did not give them permission to discuss the compensation due to the Pats with other teams. This is clearly absurd, given that the cost to any team wishing to sign Branch is the sum of the compensation due to Branch and the compensation due to the Patriots. How could anyone be expected to discuss a trade without having any idea of one part of the equation? So, since the Patriots (and their lawyers) are not complete dummies, there must be something more.

My guess is it was inappropriate approaches to coaches and/or players after the announcement of Mangini joining the Jets and before the end of the season. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a serious rift on BB's part, and I don't think it's just some he-said she-said schoolyard spat.

 

[BelichickFan]

BOTTOM LINE - I think it . . . will probably blow over in the off season.

I don't think so. Maybe over the years like with Parcells and Belichick it'll blow over. But not by next year. Not in the same division and not with how deeply ingrained it seems to be with even Mangurian making comments.

 

[PatsFanDan]

Well, Ken, there are two things to consider.

First, as was pointed out, there was no animosity when the Perfidious Penguin took the job -- even if BB thought it wasn't the right time, he congratulated him and wished him well.

Second, the stated grounds for the Patriots' tampering complaint against the Jets are obviously absurd. As stated, the Patriots gave Branch and his agent permission to seek a trade and discuss it with other teams, but did not give them permission to discuss the compensation due to the Pats with other teams. This is clearly absurd, given that the cost to any team wishing to sign Branch is the sum of the compensation due to Branch and the compensation due to the Patriots. How could anyone be expected to discuss a trade without having any idea of one part of the equation? So, since the Patriots (and their lawyers) are not complete dummies, there must be something more.

My guess is it was inappropriate approaches to coaches and/or players after the announcement of Mangini joining the Jets and before the end of the season. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a serious rift on BB's part, and I don't think it's just some he-said she-said schoolyard spat.

Bingo. Key words being inappropriate approaches. And I have read rumors previously to that affect....that Mangini was trying to recruit quite a few to make the trip down to the Meadowlands with him.

Wasn't Mangini banned from the Pats facilities not too long after he was officially hired by the NYJ? If that's true, the only legit reason for a banning would be just that. And it would certainly explain some of the ill will from BB this year.

 

[marcus]

tampering with Branch before permission to seek trade

It was Mangini and the JETS tampering with Branch BEFORE the Patriots gave them the OK to seek a trade.
Mangini and his associates through back channels told Branch NOT ton accept the Pats offer...that he was worth a lot more money.


Thta is why Branch held out.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: tampering with Branch before permission to seek trade

Well, all the speculation is nice, I just don't expect we'll ever know. Somehow, I have a sneaking suspicion that Bill is proud of the job Eric has done this season. It reflects well on Bill and the job he does developing coaches, not to mention his defensive system. Oh wait, I can't say nice things about coaches being developed by Bill Belichick, it will offend the Offensive Coordinator bashers - I'm terribly sorry for your hurt feelings.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Re: tampering with Branch before permission to seek trade

Well, all the speculation is nice, I just don't expect we'll ever know. Somehow, I have a sneaking suspicion that Bill is proud of the job Eric has done this season. It reflects well on Bill and the job he does developing coaches, not to mention his defensive system. Oh wait, I can't say nice things about coaches being developed by Bill Belichick, it will offend the Offensive Coordinator bashers - I'm terribly sorry for your hurt feelings.

Bill DOES develop Coaches; Sabsn, Ferentz, Hill, RAC, Weis, EM, Rob Ryan, Josh McDaniels, et cetera

 

[Mike the Brit]

Re: tampering with Branch before permission to seek trade

Bill DOES develop Coaches; Sabsn, Ferentz, Hill, RAC, Weis, EM, Rob Ryan, Josh McDaniels, et cetera

Yes, and he is VERY generous in not taking credit away from them. Who remembers the press conference when he was asked about the time that Saban "worked for you" and he corrected the questioner and said "when we worked together"? That was relayed to NS in another press conference and he was obviously quite touched. That's Bill at his best (contrast Parcells!)

 

[patfanken]

Re: tampering with Branch before permission to seek trade

Yes, and he is VERY generous in not taking credit away from them. Who remembers the press conference when he was asked about the time that Saban "worked for you" and he corrected the questioner and said "when we worked together"? That was relayed to NS in another press conference and he was obviously quite touched. That's Bill at his best (contrast Parcells!)

Nice pick up, Mike. BB is the ultimate teacher. While he is the ultra bland mono-tone robot when he talks about the team or injury reports; he becomes the charismic, animated instructor when they talk about football in general. You can tell it on his "Bellistrator" talks on Patriots All Access (sorry Mike, local Boston TV Station). His football tree is growing rapidly, and that is because, not only does he improve his team with good coaching, he improves his COACHES, with good teaching. Also, except for the "Perfidious Penguin" (love that one Mike, you should copywrite it, or Felger will use it), his tree has been EXTREMELY loyal to Bill. Probably because it is his nature to deflect all credit to those around him, rather than himself.

BTW - I do think this will blow over. I think others are correct that this is probably about inappropriate contact with Pats staffers, etc; but was proabably due to a bout of overzealousness and fear, when he got the new job, as opposed to a calculated plan to raid the Pats. They'll talk it over in the off season and mend fences. If not it will be even more reason to HATE THE JETS.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I thought Mangini was fired for introducing them to rock n roll.

Seriously folks, sometimes you have to wait for another "tell all" book in the offseason. Inquiring minds want to know, but aren't going to, maybe never.

Good speculation? Okay, I won't say "no such thing," since you can say it's high-likelihood speculation, if you're a believer... but trying to develop a picture of those personal relationships from handshake snubs and allegations is a tricky proposition.

I'd say the best "story" we can tell is still well over 50% wrong. But that's just me.

PFnV

 

[vyrago]

Well,

First, as was pointed out, there was no animosity when the >>Perfidious Penguin<< took the job
.

I thought I recognized him from "The Wrong Trousers." Now there's one evil dude.

 

[PatsMyBoyz!]

I do not think Branch has too much to do with it, a little bit, but not the real reason.

From what insiders have said, Mangini tried to get players, coach and other staff to come with him. He succeeded with Chatham and also with some administration and he campaigned Pepper Johnson hard and almost got him forcing the Pats to restructure his contract and pay him more. This is what has BB steamed at Mangini. You don't pull that crap to the guy that gave you a shot and was your mentor.

After that, came Branch and that fueled the fire, but is started about a week after Mangini signed with the Jets...NOT COOL!!!!

Another interesting point I heard from Curran today on EEI was that BB wore that AFC East Champ hat last week to dig it to Mangini as a reminder of who is on top and for Mangini to not forget it. I see this rivalary heating up more and more and I think BB is dreaming of getting the Jets in the Playoffs. I think BB's players will destroy Mangini after what happened here at Gillette earlier in the year and of course for BB due to his sour feelings toward Mangini. The players now know how deep his distain for Mangini run and I am sure they would fight to the death to win that one for Bill!

I agree with that-this rivalry has just begun,and it will be fueled if the Jets continue to improve. No matter what else may have transpired between those 2, the fact Mangini has managed to get into a position (technically anyway) of threatening the Pat's playoff future makes this "rivalry" all out WAR.
As to the history between the 2,one more thing was BB was the one who brought Mangini from an office out onto the field. There was an interesting piece on TV about Mangini and how he started out painting lines or something then became a clerk of some kind but worked 18 hours a day at whatever he did.
When BB came along,it was him who recognized something in Mangini and took EM on as part of his staff/under his wing,essentially giving Mangini his "start",if you will.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Re: tampering with Branch before permission to seek trade

Nice pick up, Mike. BB is the ultimate teacher. While he is the ultra bland mono-tone robot when he talks about the team or injury reports; he becomes the charismic, animated instructor when they talk about football in general. You can tell it on his "Bellistrator" talks on Patriots All Access (sorry Mike, local Boston TV Station). His football tree is growing rapidly, and that is because, not only does he improve his team with good coaching, he improves his COACHES, with good teaching. Also, except for the "Perfidious Penguin" (love that one Mike, you should copywrite it, or Felger will use it), his tree has been EXTREMELY loyal to Bill. Probably because it is his nature to deflect all credit to those around him, rather than himself.

BTW - I do think this will blow over. I think others are correct that this is probably about inappropriate contact with Pats staffers, etc; but was proabably due to a bout of overzealousness and fear, when he got the new job, as opposed to a calculated plan to raid the Pats. They'll talk it over in the off season and mend fences. If not it will be even more reason to HATE THE JETS.

Well, I'm here in Cambridge, MA and I have Comcast On Demand, but the only TV I watch apart from live football is Patriots All Access. I LOVE that programme. It shows the Pats at their best and is actually a lot more revealing than the more confrontational efforts of other reporters (who shall be nameless).

I couldn't agree with you more about Bill when he talks there. What comes across in the press conferences as surly and defensive is actually light and modest -- the praise for the other teams isn't just routine, you feel he really respects what they can do. Of course, we know that he sees the weaknesses and will prey on them like a hawk. That's his job. But he still loves the game.

Even in Cleveland, when BB was not nearly as open and sensitive as he is today, he did everything he could to look after the assistant coaches -- and they appreciated it (I believe he gave them the fees he earned for his TV appearances, for example). I think that he likes developing coaches even more than he likes developing players.

P.S. I'm finding it harder to hate the Jets. When I went to Foxborough for the game, their fans were fine -- young, blue-collar, happy to win (of course) but not obnoxious. I talked to this one young guy who was wearing a Jets Ty Law jersey. His slogan was "He screwed you like he screwed us" -- pretty funny, I thought.