Nice discussion of the rookies from Scout.com (public article)

[jays52]

Yes, I really believe this. In my opinion, he has been a disappointment and robbed the Patriots. From his slow start in 2008 to him not finishing off Eli in the super bowl. Had he sacked Eli before his miracle throw, he would have earned his money.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Not only was AD held on that play, he clearly had Manning in the grasp. It was a damned if he did, damned if he didn't type of play. If he threw 10 to the ground, he would have been flagged 15 yards. He actually made the smart call by hanging off of him while waiting for a holding flag/in the grasp call. I really think you are a bright guy, and enjoy a lot of your posts, so I don't want this to seem personal. That said, I really think you are off base with your evaluation of Thomas. Just a couple of quick questions to help me build your opinion in my mind. Do you watch the OLB vs tight end play at all? Do you know how to look for and indentify loops/stunts? Are you aware of pre-snap defensive changes? Do you watch OLB's engaging blockers?

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Not only was AD held on that play, he clearly had Manning in the grasp. It was a damned if he did, damned if he didn't type of play. If he threw 10 to the ground, he would have been flagged 15 yards.

I highly doubt they would have called roughing for the same reason why the refs didn't call in the grasp (which they should have). My observation of the play was Thomas looked to have him in the grasp and kind of gave up because he assumed the refs would have called the play dead. Same can be said with the rest of the D-line.

I really think you are a bright guy, and enjoy a lot of your posts, so I don't want this to seem personal.

Thanks for the compliment. However, I'm sure most people on this board would disagree.

That said, I really think you are off base with your evaluation of Thomas. Just a couple of quick questions to help me build your opinion in my mind. Do you watch the OLB vs tight end play at all? Do you know how to look for and indentify loops/stunts? Are you aware of pre-snap defensive changes? Do you watch OLB's engaging blockers?

Yes, I think I understand were you're going with this. I understand that when Adalius was in coverage, the opposing TE's became invisible. However, Thomas had to remain in coverage because nobody else can cover the TE. I understand that LB's make adjustments at the line and go into coverage when they were originally intended to rush the passer.

 

[jays52]

Yes, I think I understand were you're going with this. I understand that when Adalius was in coverage, the opposing TE's became invisible. However, Thomas had to remain in coverage because nobody else can cover the TE. I understand that LB's make adjustments at the line and go into coverage when they were originally intended to rush the passer.

I see your point, but the complexities of the position are far deeper. The assignments change from set to set, down to down. Thomas is on the field for almost all of the snaps. In defensive football, this is one of the best endorsements of a player's versatility. He is currently the best player on the roster in shedding blocks, the best pass rusher on the team, the fastest, most explosive linebacker, and the best pass coverage OLB in the AFCE. He really is a special player who transcends cursory evaluations. If you watch what opposing offenses do, 70% of their linebacker gameplan is based around shutting him down.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I see your point, but the complexities of the position are far deeper. The assignments change from set to set, down to down. Thomas is on the field for almost all of the snaps. In defensive football, this is one of the best endorsements of a player's versatility. He is currently the best player on the roster in shedding blocks, the best pass rusher on the team, the fastest, most explosive linebacker, and the best pass coverage OLB in the AFCE. He really is a special player who transcends cursory evaluations. If you watch what opposing offenses do, 70% of their linebacker gameplan is based around shutting him down.

All of your points are spot on and can't argue with any of them. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would to see Thomas getting after QB's more often because he awesome at bull rushing offensive lineman. In fact, he was one Eli Manning sack away from being my super bowl MVP. I assume the reason why we don't see Thomas rushing the passer very much is because the Pats don't have any coverage LB's. However, I hope Mayo and Guyton can take on that role to allow the coaching staff to unleash Thomas. Also, I hope that Woods or Crable will make opposing offenses reduce opposing offense to slide their protection towards Thomas's side.

 

[Patjew]

I didn't know there were two Vrabel's on the team.

Umm, he was so dominant that it seemed like there were.

What is the rap thread? Can somebody help me out?

Bump it up, baby. http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...08-brady-moss-names-mentioned-rap-lyrics.html

 

[apple strudel]

The only LB's that were FA's and succeeded with BB were Mike Vrabel, Roman Phifer, Brian Cox and Seau. The only problem was, 3 out of the 4 LB's didn't last long with the team.

Colvin and Thomas say hi. Completely and utterly whack argument.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Colvin and Thomas say hi. Completely and utterly whack argument.

Re-read my post again. These were guys mentioned after Colvin and Thomas. I said Colvin has played well. However, he really wasn't able to make the impact we all hoped after suffering that injury in 2003. Thomas has done some good things, but I think he needs to make more of an impact rushing the passer because he is very good at that.

I'm glad your satisfied with the LB's because I'm not.

 

[apple strudel]

Re-read my post again. These were guys mentioned after Colvin and Thomas. I said Colvin has played well. However, he really wasn't able to make the impact we all hoped after suffering that injury in 2003. Thomas has done some good things, but I think he needs to make more of an impact rushing the passer because he is very good at that.

I'm glad your satisfied with the LB's because I'm not.

So the 2 pro-bowl type OLBs BB signs do a lot of great things for the team outside of injuries and you're complaining? There are only so many Wares to go around.

Thomas will be back this year, only 2 seasons removed from being the undeniable top FA available. We've got 2 or possibly 3 young, prototypical OLBs to start opposite him. BB didn't trade Vrabes on, you know, a whim.

Your argument is all over the map. One one hand you're saying BB doesn't evaluate LBs well. But there's so much evidence to contradict that it's silly. On the other hand, you're saying we don't have much of a pass rush. Again, in 07 we were fantastic. in 08 we were, what, average? That includes injuries and Vrabes falling off a cliff. in 09 we've got Thomas back and those young players coming in. I think we've got a shot at having a pretty good pass rush this year. Finally, BB has done a fantastic job drafting Mayo and getting younger in the middle. So basically what you're saying is that you, like every other person inclined to state the obvious, don't know what Woods and Crable will bring to the table this year. Going from BB has failed to bring in good LBs to we've got 2 young guys with potential but we don't know what they'll bring to the table is leaping a gap the size of the grand canyon.

Totally whack argument.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

So the 2 pro-bowl type OLB's BB signs do a lot of great things for the team outside of injuries and you're complaining? There are only so many Wares to go around.

Just to let you know Colvin is not a pro bowler. Colvin had 2 good season with the Bears getting 11 sacks. After his injury in 2003, he never got back to his pro bowl form. Second, Adalius Thomas made the pro bowl with the Ravens and hasn't played like it with the Pats.

Thomas will be back this year, only 2 seasons removed from being the undeniable top FA available. We've got 2 or possibly 3 young, prototypical OLBs to start opposite him. BB didn't trade Vrabes on, you know, a whim.

That is exactly why they went after Jason Taylor, Greg Ellis and rumored to have interest in Peppers and Burgess. It's comical how your not worried about the LB's.

Finally, BB has done a fantastic job drafting Mayo and getting younger in the middle.

Mayo is a start, where's the other guy? If your talking about Guyton, I hope he takes over for Bruschi on opening day.

Again, in 07 we were fantastic.

You are obviously having a hard time understanding that teams playing the Pats abandoned the run and threw the entire game. Of course you are going to get sacks when a team throws for 4 quarters. But in '08, teams were able to run their normal offense because the Pats weren't scoring at will on them. Vrabel was god awful in '08, getting stoned at the line of scrimmage on majority of the pass plays and Thomas decided to get injured. Just watching them try to sack the QB made me cringe and felt embarrassed for them.

Totally whack argument.

You can't seem to stop saying this at the end of your posts. Nothing you say is going to change my mind and nothing I say is going to change your mind. However, if Crable or Woods or Crable and Woods make an impact, then I will obviously shut about this. But if the Pats struggle like they did in '08, you guys will never hear the end of it from me.


Just wanted to add one more thing. If the LB's have never been a problem for the Pats, please tell me why they eventually lost in 2005 playoffs, 2006 playoffs, 2007 super bowl and missing the playoffs in 2008? And I don't want to hear injuries.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Thomas decided to get injured.

So guys just decide to get injured? And here I was all these years thinking that injuries were unpredictable. Why the hell would Tom Brady decide to just sit out last year? What a selfish guy.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

So guys just decide to get injured? And here I was all these years thinking that injuries were unpredictable. Why the hell would Tom Brady decide to just sit out last year? What a selfish guy.

I was just being sarcastic. But I'm sure you picked that up.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I was just being sarcastic. But I'm sure you picked that up.

Yeah, I was being equally sarcastic so it's all good.

 

[apple strudel]

Just wanted to add one more thing. If the LB's have never been a problem for the Pats, please tell me why they eventually lost in 2005 playoffs, 2006 playoffs, 2007 super bowl and missing the playoffs in 2008? And I don't want to hear injuries.

lol - 07 super bowl and missing the playoffs in 08 were the LBs fault? Classic. Your just making **** up now. BB has worked to improve the LBs consistently when he was able to do it. He's arguably completely re-built the starting 4 in 10: Guyton, Mayo, Woods, and Crable. Your argument is just plain whack. I keep saying it because it's true.

Edit: oh yeah, throw in Thomas in '10 as well. Still whack.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

lol - 07 super bowl and missing the playoffs in 08 were the LBs fault? Classic. Your just making **** up now.

Making stuff up? You still haven't answered my question. Please tell me why the Pats lost to the Broncos in '05, the Colts in '06, Giants in '08 super bowl and not making the playoffs in '08-'09 regular season. You know what, I will take it a step further and say the entire defense is the reason why the Pats haven't won a super bowl since '04. Have fun arguing against that.

BB has worked to improve the LBs consistently when he was able to do it. He's arguably completely re-built the starting 4 in 10: Guyton, Mayo, Woods, and Crable. Your argument is just plain whack. I keep saying it because it's true.

Edit: oh yeah, throw in Thomas in '10 as well. Still whack.

Your argument sucks balls! The best you can do is criticize me and bring up who BB has brought in recently. You assume that Guyton, Crable, and even Woods are sure things. Good argument.

 

[PatsSox363804]

Making stuff up? You still haven't answered my question. Please tell me why the Pats lost to the Broncos in '05, the Colts in '06, Giants in '08 super bowl and not making the playoffs in '08-'09 regular season. You know what, I will take it a step further and say the entire defense is the reason why the Pats haven't won a super bowl since '04. Have fun arguing against that.




Your argument sucks balls! The best you can do is criticize me and bring up who BB has brought in recently. You assume that Guyton, Crable, and even Woods are sure things. Good argument.

Honestly, I agree with 2006 and the Colts, the Colts in the second half exposed the LBs and kept going up the middle deep where we were weak, that's pretty much a fact.

In 2007 I can't blame them, they held their own for 3 quarters and the offense couldn't put the ball in the end zone. Granted when the defense had a chance to win the game they didn't, it was still one of the worst called games on offense of the BB era. Further, the secondary blew it at the end with Samuel dropping the winning INT and then lollygagging on the Tyree play instead of sticking on him when Eli was in the grasp.

In 2005 the whole team just played awful that game. Hell we would have went into half time up at least 3-0 if not for Faulks fumble and then Hobbs' fumble, instead we gave them 10 points.

 

[apple strudel]

Making stuff up? You still haven't answered my question. Please tell me why the Pats lost to the Broncos in '05, the Colts in '06, Giants in '08 super bowl and not making the playoffs in '08-'09 regular season. You know what, I will take it a step further and say the entire defense is the reason why the Pats haven't won a super bowl since '04. Have fun arguing against that.

The super bowl where the historic offense score 14 points? Yeah, it's on the LBs. :ugh: The same game where the O line was repeatedly blown up? Yeah, that's the LBs fault too. :ugh: Oh yeah, 08 where the backup QB almost lead the team to the playoffs? Yeah, that's the LBs fault, too. You're about a quarter inch away from being diagnosed with down's syndrome, dude.

Your argument sucks balls! The best you can do is criticize me and bring up who BB has brought in recently. You assume that Guyton, Crable, and even Woods are sure things. Good argument.

BB has done a good job re-building the entire team, LBs included. That's my argument and if you want to contradict that, that's fine. Continue being a complete idiot.

Whackness all over this thread.

 

[PatsBoy12]

The super bowl where the historic offense score 14 points? Yeah, it's on the LBs. :ugh: The same game where the O line was repeatedly blown up? Yeah, that's the LBs fault too. :ugh: Oh yeah, 08 where the backup QB almost lead the team to the playoffs? Yeah, that's the LBs fault, too. You're about a quarter inch away from being diagnosed with down's syndrome, dude.




BB has done a good job re-building the entire team, LBs included. That's my argument and if you want to contradict that, that's fine. Continue being a complete idiot.

Whackness all over this thread.

Ouch. Point - Apple Strudel.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

The super bowl where the historic offense score 14 points? Yeah, it's on the LBs. :ugh: The same game where the O line was repeatedly blown up? Yeah, that's the LBs fault too. :ugh: Oh yeah, 08 where the backup QB almost lead the team to the playoffs? Yeah, that's the LBs fault, too. You're about a quarter inch away from being diagnosed with down's syndrome, dude.

You only attempted to answered part of the question. The defense in the super bowl gave up over 80 yards to the Giants offense with with less than 3:00 minutes left in the game. If you want to make such a dumb argument that this historic offense only scored 14 points, that offense carried the team the entire season. They scored when it mattered most. So they have one bad game out of 19 games. But when the defense has to make one f****** stop, they fail. :yawn2:

Yeah in '08, their defense was really top notch. How the hell didn't they make playoffs?
Their LB's repeatedly were burned by TE's and average receivers over the middle because of their lack of speed. And their secondary sucked balls as well, but you probably thought they were top notch.

BB has done a good job re-building the entire team, LBs included. That's my argument and if you want to contradict that, that's fine. Continue being a complete idiot.
Whackness all over this thread.

You keep saying this over and over again without any evidence to support this. You say he has done a good job because he brought Guyton, Woods, Crable and Mayo in. Mayo is the only proven player on the team. The rest are question marks. Nice try though. :yawn2:

Ouch. Point - Apple Strudel.

I'm heart broken.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I'm heart broken.

Score remains 1 - 0; advantage - Strudel.

 

[apple strudel]

They scored when it mattered most. So they have one bad game out of 19 games. But when the defense has to make one f****** stop, they fail. :yawn2:

Secondary as much to blame as LBs. Could also point to the DL some.

Yeah in '08, their defense was really top notch. How the hell didn't they make playoffs?

Yeah, it's not like they were only the 2nd 11-5 team in NFL history to not do so. Yeah, it's not like we lost some early games to Cassel's learning curve and gimmick offenses we weren't prepared for. But sure, blame that Miami game on BB inability to scout and sign LBs. :ugh:

Their LB's repeatedly were burned by TE's and average receivers over the middle because of their lack of speed. And their secondary sucked balls as well, but you probably thought they were top notch.

Our LBs in 08 lack speed? :ugh: Guyton was the fastest LB in the draft, Mayo runs a 4.54, and Thomas has great speed. I think you mean we have 2 LBs in 08 who lacked speed, and 1 of them was just fine only the year before. But sure, blame BB for the aging process as well. :ugh:

I'm brain broken.