Improve the pass defense quickly -- how?

[MaineMan]

This is a fascinating thread. We have a wildly varied and conflicting array of prescriptions, several of which are described by their authors as "simple and obvious."

I think the interior pass rush hasn't gotten enough play in the overall discussion this offseason. The loss of both Wright and Pryor was pretty devastating. (For those disappointed in Pryor last year, remember that he only managed to suit up for 9 games and played several of those with a bad back.) Does anybody feel confident in them returning healthy? If not, isn't that a major need?

I agree that Austin is ideal but will go high. Any thoughts on Martin Parker as a mid-round possibility?

Several observers at Shrine Game practices thought he looked at least as good as Marvin Austin and Terrell McLain.

And I agree about the lack of a consistent interior rush out of sub-packages being detrimental to our overall pass rush. If Wright and Pryor are out, I'm not sure there's a quick-fix with a late-rounder. The amount that Pryor contributed as a rookie last season (and Deaderick in 2010) might be somewhat atypical historically for situational sub-rushers in BB's defenses with the Pats. It seemed to take Wright, TBC and even Jarvis Green a couple seasons to really make their presence felt in that role. IOW, yeah, a 3rd rounder for Parker or a guy like him might be necessary.

 

[Fencer]

So, getting another run-stopping DE to restore a 30-front against which running the ball on 3rd-and-7 is no longer a viable option should reduce the effectiveness of play-action against us and enhance our pass-rush even with the guys we already have.

Just what personnel grouping are you suggesting for the nickel or dime packages?

 

[AzPatsFan]

An interesting question, to which I have a ready answer.

Not a single damn thing!

This Defense suffered from a rash of injuries in the Defensive line at the end of the season. The return to health and the natural improvemnt of the youngsters will automatically improve this Defense by a substantial margin. This Defense is already on course for a major improvment without a single newcomer...

Y'all sound like the Generals who are always preparing to fight the LAST war.

:bricks:

 

[MaineMan]

Just what personnel grouping are you suggesting for the nickel or dime packages?

Hard to be specific, but, if the 30-front is strong enough, it opens up a lot more tactical options than having to go to a 40-front most of the time, beyond maybe swapping an OLB for a specialist edge-rusher. Might be able to go back to using a 3rd CB as the 5th DB (assuming we HAVE a 3rd CB who's good in coverage), instead of almost always having to use a safety for his superior run-support. Might not have to pray so hard that they don't run the ball with Guyton subbing in for Spikes on "passing downs".

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

An interesting question, to which I have a ready answer.

Not a single damn thing!

This Defense suffered from a rash of injuries in the Defensive line at the end of the season. The return to health and the natural improvemnt of the youngsters will automatically improve this Defense by a substantial margin. This Defense is already on course for a major improvment without a single newcomer...

Y'all sound like the Generals who are always preparing to fight the LAST war.

:bricks:

:yeeha: To the rear, harch!

Box prediction:
Chung will return healthy.
Ty Warren will return healthy.
Bodden will return healthy.
Wright will return healthy.
Pryor will return healthy.
Wilhite will return healthy.
Brace will return healthy.
Cunningham will return more experienced.
Ninkovich will return more experienced.
Moore will return more experienced.
Spikes will return more experienced.
Fletcher will return more experienced.
Page will return more experienced.
Arrington will return more experienced.
Butler will return more experienced.
McCourty will return more experienced.
Brown will return more experienced.
Deadrick will return more experienced, and hopefully smarter.
Barrett will return healthy, but new to the defense.
Mayo will continue to improve.
Guyton will continue to improve.
Wilfork is just entering his prime.
Sanders will continue to improve.
Patricia will stir up the Safeties and work with BB and Boyer to design evil schemes for Sanchize, Peyton, and the rest.
The fan base will complain. :woohoo:

 

[Fencer]

Hard to be specific, but, if the 30-front is strong enough, it opens up a lot more tactical options than having to go to a 40-front most of the time, beyond maybe swapping an OLB for a specialist edge-rusher. Might be able to go back to using a 3rd CB as the 5th DB (assuming we HAVE a 3rd CB who's good in coverage), instead of almost always having to use a safety for his superior run-support. Might not have to pray so hard that they don't run the ball with Guyton subbing in for Spikes on "passing downs".

I don't see it. If you want to have 5-6 guys who cover and 4+ guys who rush, that doesn't leave room for 3 who do neither particularly well.

 

[Off The Grid]

An interesting question, to which I have a ready answer.

Not a single damn thing!

This Defense suffered from a rash of injuries in the Defensive line at the end of the season. The return to health and the natural improvemnt of the youngsters will automatically improve this Defense by a substantial margin. This Defense is already on course for a major improvment without a single newcomer...

Y'all sound like the Generals who are always preparing to fight the LAST war.

:bricks:

You said the exact same thing, last year.

Didn't work out too well, did it? :bricks:

 

[Fencer]

Whew! I found where to turn off the viewing of signatures.

That makes it possible for me to tolerate a thread in which Off The Grid posts.

 

[Brady2Welker]

Other than Watt, it's hard to see how a DL choice would do too much for the pass defense, given that we already have Warren/Wilfork/Brace.

The difficulties in drafting a pass rusher have been much discussed. Yes, even Kerrigan.

Rightly, nobody is suggesting drafting an impact ILB.

Who exactly is going to help among DBs? Prince A? Sure, but he would be tough to get. Aaron Williams? Plausible, but he's raw. Could he be an upgrade at nickel CB as rookie?

Who/what am I missing?

Defensive line, still. Considering that the defensive line you mentioned is in the base package and ignores the fact that they switch into nickel. OLB's help, but a big part of the reason we got killed the last two years is getting run on in base packages making us change formations and being less successful against the pass.

 

[MaineMan]

I don't see it. If you want to have 5-6 guys who cover and 4+ guys who rush, that doesn't leave room for 3 who do neither particularly well.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at.

I'm thinking that one option might be (for 3rd-and 7 or more):

3 - 30-front
2 - Ninko/Cunningham - both of whom can rush well enough when they don't have to worry about play action and both of whom can cover a TE well enough with some help behind - OR - sub one out for a pass-rush specialist
1 - Guyton (or Fletcher) - OR - keep Mayo in (with Guyton/Fletcher) and take out one of the OLBs
1 - Chung - patrolling the middle alongside Guyton or behind Guyton/Mayo
1 - 3rd CB - covering the slot or patrolling the middle
2 - McCourty/Bodden
1 - Meriweather over the top

Potential for 4-5 rushers (including the 30-front) - OR - 8 (more or less) in coverage. Or variations between the two.

With two solid run-stopping DEs, you could take Wilfork out and do a whole bunch of other things (2-3-6, 4-2-5, etc.) much more effectively than having weak run-stoppers up front.

 

[Patsfanau93]

I know everyone one else is saying this but we need a pass rusher. I say trade up for quinn or take kerrigan. Even though hes not a 3 down player now, I bet BB grooms him into one. Also your going to think im crazy but what about Bowers if he falls. Anyone thinking Willie McGinest II???

 

[bucky]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at.

I'm thinking that one option might be (for 3rd-and 7 or more):

3 - 30-front
2 - Ninko/Cunningham - both of whom can rush well enough when they don't have to worry about play action and both of whom can cover a TE well enough with some help behind - OR - sub one out for a pass-rush specialist
1 - Guyton (or Fletcher) - OR - keep Mayo in (with Guyton/Fletcher) and take out one of the OLBs
1 - Chung - patrolling the middle alongside Guyton or behind Guyton/Mayo
1 - 3rd CB - covering the slot or patrolling the middle
2 - McCourty/Bodden
1 - Meriweather over the top

Potential for 4-5 rushers (including the 30-front) - OR - 8 (more or less) in coverage. Or variations between the two.

So in this scenario, are you suggesting the "30 front" consists of Vince, Ty Warren, and another run-stuffing DE such as Brace or Stroud? I'm not really following your logic as to how this helps generate a pass rush.

 

[Fencer]

I'm suggesting that

3 - 30-front
2 - Ninko/Cunningham - both of whom can rush well enough when they don't have to worry about play action and both of whom can cover a TE well enough with some help behind - OR - sub one out for a pass-rush specialist

might be a little low on pass-rushing talent, and all the more so if Ninko is pulled for an ILB or DB.

In saying that, I'm assuming you mean that all 3 of the DL are guys who could be solid DEs or NTs in the base defense. I think the only guy we have now who meets that description is Wilfork, and I don't think another will come in the draft below the Watt/Jordan level, so the draft can at most add 1 more. I further doubt this is a great use of Wilfork's energies, although on that part I could be pretty easy to persuade otherwise.

 

[MaineMan]

So in this scenario, are you suggesting the "30 front" consists of Vince, Ty Warren, and another run-stuffing DE such as Brace or Stroud? I'm not really following your logic as to how this helps generate a pass rush.

It's not so much that it "generates" any "new" pass-rush, it's that it removes the main condition (offensive running threat/effective play-action, even on 3rd-and-relatively long) that stifled the pass rush capability we already have (which is not as weak as most people seem to think, IMHO).

With a 30-front that virtually eliminates any viable running threat on 3rd-and-long, pass-rushers don't lose whatever first-step advantage they might have by biting on play-action. LBs/safeties aren't late to coverage assignments by biting on play-action. More guys can be assigned exclusively to coverage without fear of getting beat by a run, thus leading to potentially more coverage-generated pressure (sacks or throwaways). And now, our pass rush might come from anywhere (like it once did when our defense was good) and the opposing QB has a less clear idea who is dropping into coverage or from what position.

IOW, we can go back to doing what was successful for us in 2001-2007.

 

[Off The Grid]

Whew! I found where to turn off the viewing of signatures.

That makes it possible for me to tolerate a thread in which Off The Grid posts.

I wish I could say the same.

Grid's Brilliant Solution to The Pass Defense Debacle​

1 ~ Draft DE Justin Watt. He brings a RIDICULOUS fusion of Strength, Length, Athleticism, and Passion. His impact would be SEISMIC.

2 ~ Draft DE Kenrick Ellis. He commands an OBSCENE combination of Size, Power + Athleticism, and he has an APPETITE for the Dirty Work.

3 ~ Steal DF Matthias Kiwanuka. He is awfully close to the PERFECT Flanker for this System, and I can't believe the Giants are letting him slip!!

Expectations​

I'm much less concerned with how those guys would do over the first 8 weeks, than how they'd impact the team after Halloween, once they've had a couple months to work their way in.

Rookies and Free Agents often make FAR more Impact in the second half of the season.

And my thinking is that their impact ~ each one of them ~ would be IMMENSE.

Additional Steps​

4 ~ Draft DF Greg Romeus. Certainly he's an IR candidate, as is Kiwanuka, but if we take it easy on the lad, and maybe PUP him for the first half ~ though I'd rather be able to get him some exposure and let him work it through the gears ~ there is no question that he has the talent to potentially make an occasionally significant contribution as a 4th Flanker, down the stretch.

5 ~ Draft UT Colby WhitLock. This speaks to Sister Pat's intriguing query about an Interior Sub Rusher. I am NUTS about this kid's blend of Explosive Launch, Violent Hands, Agility, Instincts, Diagnostic Skills, and Processing Speed!! I think he'd be absolutely AWESOME for the gig. He is far and AWAY my favorite late round candidate for that job.

Summary​

I'd also draft a few talented guys for the Secondary, but I wanted to stress the point that I believe that ~ in improving our Pass Defense ~ the greatest Return on Investment would be to bring Impact Players in for the Front 7 ~ and especially The Front Line.

*PS ~ An early Christmas present for ya, Brother Fencer.

 

[Off The Grid]

It's not so much that it "generates" any "new" pass-rush, it's that it removes the main condition (offensive running threat/effective play-action, even on 3rd-and-relatively long) that stifled the pass rush capability we already have (which is not as weak as most people seem to think, IMHO).

With a 30-front that virtually eliminates any viable running threat on 3rd-and-long, pass-rushers don't lose whatever first-step advantage they might have by biting on play-action. LBs/safeties aren't late to coverage assignments by biting on play-action. More guys can be assigned exclusively to coverage without fear of getting beat by a run, thus leading to potentially more coverage-generated pressure (sacks or throwaways). And now, our pass rush might come from anywhere (like it once did when our defense was good) and the opposing QB has a less clear idea who is dropping into coverage or from what position.

IOW, we can go back to doing what was successful for us in 2001-2007.

Beautifully crafted and winning explanation, Brother Maine.

Crush the Run, and Pass Defense becomes EXPONENTIALLY easier to execute.

It IS that simple.

 

[MaineMan]

I'm suggesting that



might be a little low on pass-rushing talent, and all the more so if Ninko is pulled for an ILB or DB.

In saying that, I'm assuming you mean that all 3 of the DL are guys who could be solid DEs or NTs in the base defense. I think the only guy we have now who meets that description is Wilfork, and I don't think another will come in the draft below the Watt/Jordan level, so the draft can at most add 1 more. I further doubt this is a great use of Wilfork's energies, although on that part I could be pretty easy to persuade otherwise.

Well, assuming that Ty Warren comes back healthy and capable, that's two. Stroud has been a very good DT against the run and can get some pressure. He was also not as horrible in the Bills new 34 as some people make it sound (49 TT and 3 sacks by himself, which is better than Brace and G. Warren combined did for us last year). So that's three. Add a big, run-stopping rookie DE who may also be able to get some pressure and that's potentially four. And that's where your tactical options for various fronts (and the depth to staff them) begin to expand.

Now, you can give Wilfork a rest and go with two DEs and move your OLBs up (or drop one into coverage), or sub in an interior rusher for Wilfork (Wright, Pryor, or even Deaderick).

And now, 1st-and-20 (after a hold) doesn't automatically turn into 3rd-and-4 (or less) after a couple of runs and/or short passes over the middle the way it seemed to last season.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I don't see the Pats using the 30 front on passing downs that much because of a number of reasons:
1. our linebackers are mediocre to bad at pass coverage
2. base defensive linemen poor at pass rush (warren, wilfork, stroud)

I see the Pats using more of the 4-2-5 nickel look. This allows us to have 4 rushers, and to cover more of the field. The problem is, who is your personnel for the 4-2-5 look?

--Z--Z--
Z--Z--Z-
-Y---Y--
X-X-X-X

So the Xs would be the downlinemen/rushers.
The Ys would be either our coverage linebackers or even a SS type like Chung. The Zs would be the defensive backs.

Who do you plug in there that would pose any kind of pass rush threat in the 4 X positions? I just don't see a lot of pass rush ability from our DL in that formation. And even if one of the Zs like Butler or Wilhite isn't blowing an assignment, if pressure doesn't get to the QB up front, guys like Sanchez will have all day to wait for a breakdown in coverage.

We talk about how drafting an OLB -might- fix the passrush, but I don't know. You guys want him to set the edge in the 4-2-5 as well and still expect him to be quick enough to get to the QB? Who in this draft even fits this mold? Quinn? Could be a huge bust waiting to happen. Out of football a year, and shows up to combine out of shape. Bowers? Microfracture surgery looms. Von Miller? A top 5 lock and out of reach barring trading the whole farm, and even then there's no guarantee he's not a Gholston. Not to mention, Miller does NOT look like an edge setter.

This is why, it's more likely BB will wait and grab a hybrid 3-4 end/OLB tweener in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. Looking at it that way, tweener guys like Allen Bailey of Miami, Christian Ballard of Iowa, and Pernell McPhee of Miss St may be the real guys in BB's crosshairs. They could be a fit for the 4-2-5 rush package on passing downs.

 

[cstjohn17]

The biggest problem with the pass defense last year was their innability to stop the run. Our ends were so decimated by injury that the Pats were often forced to play the best NT in the game at DE. The return of Warren, the aquisition of Stroud and a high pick on a run stuffing DE this year will go far in addressing that problem.

I don't agree with this, it is clever to say that improving the run defense will improve the pass defense but it doesn't make any sense.

Although they weren't at the level of the Steelers or Ravens they did manage to stay in the top 10 in almost all run defense categories but were horrid against the pass. Maybe horrid is too nice of a term.

Even if the Patriots run defense was bad it wouldn't have matterd. Teams just game out throwing, hell why run when you can pass at will.

As far as improving the pass defense I think they will try to get someone who can help the interior rush (Bailey, Austin, Taylor, Jordan, Watt, Taylor, Wilkerson) and then a smaller speedier player (Ayers, Carter or Carter). Either that or take a 3 down player like Kerrigan, Smith, Quinn. Or take a 3-4 end like Heyward, Watt, Wilkerson.

You get the point, I have no idea how they fix it but they do need to fix it...

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I don't agree with this, it is clever to say that improving the run defense will improve the pass defense but it doesn't make any sense.

Although they weren't at the level of the Steelers or Ravens they did manage to stay in the top 10 in almost all run defense categories but were horrid against the pass. Maybe horrid is too nice of a term.

Even if the Patriots run defense was bad it wouldn't have matterd. Teams just game out throwing, hell why run when you can pass at will.

As far as improving the pass defense I think they will try to get someone who can help the interior rush (Bailey, Austin, Taylor, Jordan, Watt, Taylor, Wilkerson) and then a smaller speedier player (Ayers, Carter or Carter). Either that or take a 3 down player like Kerrigan, Smith, Quinn. Or take a 3-4 end like Heyward, Watt, Wilkerson.

You get the point, I have no idea how they fix it but they do need to fix it...

Perhaps it's about how they stopped the run. Chung and McCourty made a LOT of tackles in run support because the OLBs couldn't consistently set the edge. An improvement in the run game would allow the secondary to focus more on pass coverage.

Butler seemed to be a bit better in coverage, but Arrington was way ahead in terms of physical play, especially in run support. Perhaps you can play Butler more when you're not depending on the secondary as much for run support.

Spikes also got fooled a bunch of times in play-action. Part of that is the rookie learning curve, but part of that may have been him having a lot of responsibilities in run defense.

I'm not saying improving the run defense is the only thing we need to do, but it could help in many ways.