I like our WR's.....

[DCPatsFan]

Would everyone agree that the Pats didn't really have a true #1 receiver until 2004 with Branch? I think that it was only last year that Branch emerged as the #1 receiver for a full season. Even with Branch, Givens, and Brown, we often heard the talk in past years that the Pats didn't really have an elite receiver - just sytems guys.

Everybody forgets about Watson and Graham, I know they're not wideouts, but they're an important part of the receiving corps, along with Faulk.

 

[zippo59]

Would everyone agree that the Pats didn't really have a true #1 receiver until 2004 with Branch? I think that it was only last year that Branch emerged as the #1 receiver for a full season. Even with Branch, Givens, and Brown, we often heard the talk in past years that the Pats didn't really have an elite receiver - just sytems guys.

Everybody forgets about Watson and Graham, I know they're not wideouts, but they're an important part of the receiving corps, along with Faulk.

But even in 2004 Branch got injured and missed a bunch of games.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I think our #2 and 3 receiving slots should be set for the next few years, in terms of Gabriel and Caldwell respectively. Jackson is the wild card who is yet to be determined. The question is whether you wait and see if Jackson is the answer as the #1, or you go out and get someone. Pretty risky.

* Once he picks up the O, I expect Gaffney to play over Caldwell. The guy had 55 catches with the Texans last year. If one believes Brady makes WR's better, what'll Gaffney do here?

 

[JoeSixPat]

I think our #2 and 3 receiving slots should be set for the next few years, in terms of Gabriel and Caldwell respectively. Jackson is the wild card who is yet to be determined. The question is whether you wait and see if Jackson is the answer as the #1, or you go out and get someone. Pretty risky.

Caldwell hasn't done anything yet to prove correct those who say his career high of 28 catches in a season is just an aberration.

And while I guess 30 catches a season isn't the absolute worst production you'd expect from a #3 WR, I think I'd prefer someone with more upside, and potential to grow into a #2 WR at that spot.

I actually give Caldwell a lot of credit for taking that hit and shaking it off the way he did - and I think we can find a place for him on this team - but in my mind he's still where he's always been in my view - a #4 WR.

I agree with you that Jackson's college highlight reel, speed, skills, and size suggests that he has #1 WR potential - but I don't think you wait.

If there's a #1 WR on the market (and there might not be) I think you use the ample salary cap space we have and pull the trigger. Having a 2nd round draft choice signed for 4 years who's playing near a #1 WR level, along with an expensive free agent #1 is a good problem to have.

Having no #1 WR is NOT a good problem to have.

 

[BradyManny]

Having no #1 WR is NOT a good problem to have.

If we still have that problem in week 15, then yes, but right now, I personally feel OK with the assumption that between Gabriel and Jackson, Brady will find his go-to-guy by season's end.

I agree with your assessment of Caldwell. He is a #3 and not much better, I have no complaints with his play at all so far, he's made some big first down catches, but it should be Gabriel and Jackson on the field as the primary wideouts, not Gabriel and Caldwell. Now that Jackson is finally close to full health, I think we'll see that.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Watching the Miami tape in the first half, I see Caldwell making one first down catch on 4th and a foot. At this point in the season, Brady seems to be using Troy, Faulk, and Reche as his critical down players.

I love Reche's blocking, in the Miami first half he had nice blocks on Jason Taylor and Donnie Spragan on run plays - by nice I mean he controlled them well enough to keep them out of the play. It will be interesting to see how things develop going forward. Where I see a need is another shifty smurf sliding into the zone seams. Troy is the best at that for the moment. I don't know Gaffney's style, but the Pats WRs are 'going large' with Gabriel and Caldwell as the 1 - 2 punch (based on the WRs lined up in the Miami game).

 

[BradyManny]

Caldwell has made some big catches, but I don't think he's getting open often enough - he's been on the field as much as anybody on offense, yet he's 5th on the team in catches. That said, Caldwell is about as good as I thought he'd be. He plays a role on this team, for sure, but if Chad Jackson is able to live up to the potential we know he has, he passes Caldwell on the depth chart. I think a lot of the Pats success later in the season will depend on Chad Jackson, and I think he'll deliver.

As for shifty smurf sliding into zone seams - CJ is no smurf, but Urban Meyer's offense last season had him as a slot receiver, so he can fill that role if need be.

 

[patsox23]

even if it were true that this collection of Pats WR's is good the real issue is we are wasting the talents of what might be one of the games best ever QB's by not giving him a stud weapon to throw the ball too. And that is a true shame.

It would be, but I'm not sure that's necessarily accurate. Give it a bit more time. I think this group - particularly Gabriel and Jackson - can provide a "stud" or two. You've gotta be at least a bit patient. By the end of the year, this group could be better than any we've had.

Branch we miss, but you think Gabriel and Jackson can't surpass Givens? How good did you people think LAST year's WR corps was? Dwight? Andre Davis? Bethel and his 4 catches? They weren't all that great overall. AT ALL.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Caldwell has made some big catches, but I don't think he's getting open often enough - he's been on the field as much as anybody on offense, yet he's 5th on the team in catches. That said, Caldwell is about as good as I thought he'd be. He plays a role on this team, for sure, but if Chad Jackson is able to live up to the potential we know he has, he passes Caldwell on the depth chart. I think a lot of the Pats success later in the season will depend on Chad Jackson, and I think he'll deliver.

As for shifty smurf sliding into zone seams - CJ is no smurf, but Urban Meyer's offense last season had him as a slot receiver, so he can fill that role if need be.

Getting open is as much a function of the other receivers running good routes as it is individual effort. Given that perspective, I'm inclined to wait until after New England wins the Super Bowl before I grade the WRs on their season.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

But even if it were true that this collection of Pats WR's is good the real issue is we are wasting the talents of what might be one of the games best ever QB's by not giving him a stud weapon to throw the ball too. And that is a true shame.

They're trying, BMU. They've given him the TE. The RB. OL re-signed through 2009 (and beyond in some cases). They traded up to get Chad Jackson. And they offered The Twig $6M a year. You can't fault the effort.

 

[D-cleater]

Me too, I have always liked BB method of bringing in servicable but not spectacular talent at WR. It's all about building a team and establishing an economic value of every position on the team, based on their potential contribution to a winning team. That is why BB never seems to go after big name free agents, because it screws up their model.

Two words: Derrick Mason

 

[D-cleater]

The group of 5 wideouts we have right now is probably the most talented group Brady has ever had. It's only a matter of time before it all comes together.

This post is a sure candidate for biggest homer award. How about a taste of reality, brother.

2003 receivers
| Name | G |REC YARD AVG TD |
+----------------------+----+--------------------+
| Deion Branch | 15 | 57 803 14.1 3 |
| Troy Brown | 12 | 40 472 11.8 4 |
| David Givens | 13 | 34 510 15.0 6 |
| Bethel Johnson | 15 | 16 209 13.1 2 |
| David Patten | 6 | 9 140 15.6 0 |

not including Stokes and Dedric Ward.

VS 2006 receivers ( projected)

+----------------------+----+---------------------+
| Name | G | REC YARD AVG TD |
+----------------------+----+---------------------+
| Troy Brown | 5 | 48 204 11.2 6 |
| Reche Caldwell | 5 | 32 378 11.8 0 |
| Doug Gabriel | 4 | 38 413 10.8 6 |
| Chad Jackson | 3 | 13 163 12.8 3 |
| Jonathan Smith | 2 | 0 0 0.0 0 |

Jabar Gafney????

Listen, the Pats are fine without any proven WR's besides Troy Brown. But lets be real here.

 

[RayClay]

This post is a sure candidate for biggest homer award. How about a taste of reality, brother.

2003 receivers
| Name | G |REC YARD AVG TD |
+----------------------+----+--------------------+
| Deion Branch | 15 | 57 803 14.1 3 |
| Troy Brown | 12 | 40 472 11.8 4 |
| David Givens | 13 | 34 510 15.0 6 |
| Bethel Johnson | 15 | 16 209 13.1 2 |
| David Patten | 6 | 9 140 15.6 0 |

not including Stokes and Dedric Ward.

VS 2006 receivers ( projected)

+----------------------+----+---------------------+
| Name | G | REC YARD AVG TD |
+----------------------+----+---------------------+
| Troy Brown | 5 | 48 204 11.2 6 |
| Reche Caldwell | 5 | 32 378 11.8 0 |
| Doug Gabriel | 4 | 38 413 10.8 6 |
| Chad Jackson | 3 | 13 163 12.8 3 |
| Jonathan Smith | 2 | 0 0 0.0 0 |


Jabar Gafney????

Listen, the Pats are fine without any proven WR's besides Troy Brown. But lets be real here.

Maybe we should trade for a proven receiver like Porter?

Why? Gaffney's averaged 42.75 over years.

Porter's averaged 39.84 over six 47.8 if we eliminate his rookie year.

Bethel?

Patten was good, but if we picked up someone with his credentials now, people would dump all over him 4 years with only one over 13 catches?

Givens had 9 catches the year before.

Hindsight is easy. They all look like all pros in retrospect.

 

[chucknholyoke]

I hear all this talk about this guy being a #3 reciever or a #4 reciever and we don't have a true #1 reciever and I don't see it that way.
1st The Pats are a team that doesn't have one particular style of play. Every week the Pats redefine themselves based on the strengths and weaknesses of THAT WEEKS OPPONENT. So one week Troy Brown might be the #1 because the opposing defence has a weak matchup against him and the next week the #1 could be Gabriel or Chad Jackson or Reche Caldwell. It all depends on THAT WEEKS MATCHUP.
2nd The Pats believe in spreading out the WR salary cap budget. (5 #3's instead of a #1,#2.#3,#4,#5) it makes them harder to game plan against because the D does't know who to key on.
3rd The Pats would rather have there Super Star Players from the middle of the feild (QB, RB, DL, LB, S) If we were to use the same system for the other positions we have 4 #1 DL. 2 #1 RB's, 3 #1 LB's, a #1 S and a #1 QB

 

[BradyManny]

2003 receivers
| Name | G |REC YARD AVG TD |
+----------------------+----+--------------------+
| Deion Branch | 15 | 57 803 14.1 3 |
| Troy Brown | 12 | 40 472 11.8 4 |
| David Givens | 13 | 34 510 15.0 6 |
| Bethel Johnson | 15 | 16 209 13.1 2 |
| David Patten | 6 | 9 140 15.6 0 |

not including Stokes and Dedric Ward.

VS 2006 receivers ( projected)

+----------------------+----+---------------------+
| Name | G | REC YARD AVG TD |
+----------------------+----+---------------------+
| Troy Brown | 5 | 48 204 11.2 6 |
| Reche Caldwell | 5 | 32 378 11.8 0 |
| Doug Gabriel | 4 | 38 413 10.8 6 |
| Chad Jackson | 3 | 13 163 12.8 3 |
| Jonathan Smith | 2 | 0 0 0.0 0 |

Jabar Gafney????

First of all, Jabar Gaffney has almost IDENTICAL stats to David Givens save for touchdowns - the fact that Givens has a few rings b/c he was a Patriot means he ends up with a 5 year 25 million dollar contract. That's reality for you.

Second, you are making projections on the Pats receivers based on these first 5 games?? EACH wideout WILL improve, no question - they are all NEW to the offense except Troy. Gabriel and Jackson have both missed considerable time, furthermore, Jackson is a rookie and it will take time for him to adapt to the pro game.


As Box of Rocks says, I'm going to wait until the Pats win the Super Bowl to hand out grades for our wideouts. :rocker:

 

[AzPatsFan]

From waht we know of the Wrs by size speed style(where hsitory affords a view).

Size & Speed:

D Gabriel 6-2 220 4.50
C Jackson 6-1 215 4.35
J Gaffney 6-2 210 4.49
R Caldwell 6-0 205 4.40
T Brown 5-10 195 4.50+

Style :

Gabriel - Big "Speed" receiver on Posts and sideline patterns. Possible #1-2 borderline WR. Blocks
CJ - "Speed" rookie Flys and Posts and supposed to have slant and incut ability too. Maybe future #1 . Blocks.
Gaffney - "Possesion" receiver over the middle but with size & some speed. Better Givens. Blocks??
Caldwell all around size speed possesion and posts. Not great separation ability. Blocks.
Brown - ultimate "possesion " receiver. Former low rated #1. Great against zones. Blocks

So we have: 2 or three "possesion" types; and two or three "speed" types. All have good size and relatively good speed. Three have spectacular speed, but haven't shown it yet. Four have demonstrated run blocking ability.

If they had a full TC +, this would be a pretty good set of WRs. No sure #1 but talent-wise all are no worse than #3 talents; even if it hasn't and may never be shown.

 

[oldrover]

I love the Pats as much as anyone, but this thread is whack. If you saw these receivers on an opposing team, you'd not have fear struck into your heart. They're serviceable. That's it. JMHO.

 

[mgteich]

I agree.

I think the point is that we have won SB's with less, and also with corners as weak.

The difference this time is that we have the cap room to sign players or trade, even now. We squeezed ever dollar to get players for the years of the three SB runs. This year we have $9M in the kitty, even after extending Koppen. This situation has given us the flexibility to offer a huge contract to Branch and to go after Ty Law. And to go after Randy Moss, or not.

I love the Pats as much as anyone, but this thread is whack. If you saw these receivers on an opposing team, you'd not have fear struck into your heart. They're serviceable. That's it. JMHO.

 

[patsox23]

I love the Pats as much as anyone, but this thread is whack. If you saw these receivers on an opposing team, you'd not have fear struck into your heart. They're serviceable. That's it. JMHO.

That's fair, I guess, but who the Hell was afraid of Branch, Givens, Patten, Brown and Bethel? THAT is the point of many of us in this thread - not that this group is amazing, but that it is comparable (favorably so), to the previous WR groups that some of you are now looking at through rose-colored glasses.

Those of you saying this WR corps is crappy are as off-target as those saying it's a phenomenal group. We in the middle, who claim that this group can be as good or better than the old (pedestrian-ish) set of WR's seem to be smartly in the middle.

 

[JoeSixPat]

That's fair, I guess, but who the Hell was afraid of Branch, Givens, Patten, Brown and Bethel? THAT is the point of many of us in this thread - not that this group is amazing, but that it is comparable (favorably so), to the previous WR groups that some of you are now looking at through rose-colored glasses.

Those of you saying this WR corps is crappy are as off-target as those saying it's a phenomenal group. We in the middle, who claim that this group can be as good or better than the old (pedestrian-ish) set of WR's seem to be smartly in the middle.

Branch, Givens, Patten, and Brown actually was a pretty darn good 1-4.

I would take that foursome (i.e. Patten when he played for us and Brown from a few years back) in a heartbeat over whoever you consider our top 4 WRs to be (The 5th WR is often inactive anyway).

I don't know if other teams were frightened of them, but they gave them all the respect we needed to create a balanced offense - especially one that featured Antowain Smith at RB.

I would consider Gabriel and Brown to be average WRs at this stage of the game. Caldwell, Jackson, & Gaffney all unproven commodities (and I'm being generous with Caldwell here)

So IMO its a stretch to even say this WR corps is average - let alone the most talented group Brady's ever had.

Frankly I'm a bit confused by everyone equating Gaffney with Givens right out of the box.

The guy was cut out of training camp, and remained unsigned until we took a flyer on him. It's a no lose situation for us, but to think he's an instant #2 is a huge leap of faith, and is about as realistic as expecting David Givens to be cut in training camp and passed up by every team for 5 weeks into the season.

Besides that, he's a possession WR - not one who stretches the field - he averages less yards per catch than a TE. I think he's good, no lose signing but let's try to be realistic with our expectatoins.