Excellent Reiss piece about the trade

[catent]

So if the Collins issues are true, then it's also true that the Patriots defense has been terrible this year as Lombardi said.

Yes, if we assume that Lombardi is either *always* right (or always wrong, I suppose).

Fact is, life isn't like that. There's lots of gray area, not everything is black-and-white. It's perfectly possible that he can say one thing that is entirely true, and another thing that is entirely false. Or he could say a few things, and some percentage of each statement is accurate, while other parts are less accurate.

At any rate, I digress. I can see where you're going with this: you will use Lombardi's statements as ammo against anyone who has defended the defense in the past, yet also defends the Collins trade. I think that's a tad disingenuous for the reasons mentioned above.

There are elements of the defense that are working well and others aspects that need improvement. The overall defensive product isn't where it needs to be, that's for sure. To say they're playing "terrible" -- well I'll disagree with both yourself and Lombardi on that one. Perhaps it's a matter of semantics but I think that's too harsh.

 

[Ivan]

From 2013:

Bill Belichick’s Quote ‘Dependability Is More Important Than Ability’ Explains Some of Patriots’ Personnel Decisions

I think this is primarily what it's about. Collins knew through his agent that he wasn't going to get the big money from the Patriots and checked out mentally and it showed up on the field and on film. I think they realized it was going south and wasn't going to improve over the season and became concerned it could lead to big plays when it could hurt them most, so they decided to move on from him and try to get the defense on the same page for the playoff run.

 

[bbobbo]

He initially tried to shoot the B gap and got too close to the line of scrimmage to be able to switch to the A gap in time. So he didn't meet him head-on at all - he hit him at an angle that made it impossible to stop the runner.

yup, he was late so he couldn't hit him head-on. and even so, he didn't even try to wrap him up, just tried to knock him down with a shoulder tackle:

 

[Hammer of Thor]

He initially tried to shoot the B gap and got too close to the line of scrimmage to be able to switch to the A gap in time. So he didn't meet him head-on at all - he hit him at an angle that made it impossible to stop the runner.

yup, he was late so he couldn't hit him head-on. and even so, he didn't even try to wrap him up, just tried to knock him down with a shoulder tackle:

Thanks guys. My eyesight must be going..... Clear as day in the 2nd gif.

 

[1960Pats]

Thanks for posting that. A general question that has nothing to do with Collins: Why is Gillisless doing the "Shhhh" motion with his hand at the end of the play? He's near the Buffalo sideline, playing at home and not facing any Patriots players. Who does he want to quiet down?

Maybe it was for the Pats fans who were there. I heard there were many of them. I don't think he forgot where he was playing or what team he was on.

 

[long distance]

yup, he was late so he couldn't hit him head-on. and even so, he didn't even try to wrap him up, just tried to knock him down with a shoulder tackle:

Thanks. I was just about to write how he just fell like a log. Poor effort, poor play, especially for his standards. If “undersized“ Roberts is there this is not TD (he did replace him after this).
_

But all this thing w Collins made me think another thing. How unfair the system is to the players, especially for top players. If you try to take care of yourself a little in your contract year - before you get your first real pay-check in accordance to your value - you risk losing your job. If you go all-in, sacrificing fully for the team and you injure yourself (and injury in full NFL season for starters is I guess around 20% possibility) - you can lose everything. You tear your big paycheck by taking one for the team. After that - the team (or the league) usually doesn't take one for you. You get some consolation money but nobody's giving you back your 20M, 30M guaranteed that was waiting for you. The only thing you can do is give a discount as soon as you can - and restructure. In that sense the somewhat ugly remark of Collins “At the end of the day I'm still getting money, man,” is perfectly in line with what extremely cynical NFL system provokes from young gladiators ..


EDIT: And I believe also in this case Collins' market value dropped .. Two reasons. Negotiation position is exposed .. and so is Collins' game under this unpleasant magnifying glass (despite scouts, coaches and GMs trusting their own assessments)

 

[NormZauchin]

OK Cousins. If BB wanted Collins out of town for the good of the Team I get that and he has a right as he sees fit. My issue was compensation. I will guarantee you that many fellow forum followers, if hired to do a one off trade, given the right phone numbers and info could have contacted many NFC Teams, and moved Collins for a second and maybe a player. I don't care if anyone in the front office says "well we did not get a better offer". Start with the Cowboys and work down. The 49ers? The Rams? The Packers with all of their injuries?
There was more to it than a mere Trade. This was a little bit of......."So there!" to send him to the Browns.
I get it not to send him to AFC top Teams like the Steelers who are hurt at LB or even the Colts.
All those Teams mentioned would have come up with better compensation.
Here is the question. Did BB just pick up the phone and call the Browns and see if they would like him, or miraculously did the Browns call on a whim and say "will you give up Collins. After all we gave you Mingo?"
I believe that Bill has something going on with this that we might never know. And he is taking the heat full knowing that there is some reason he might never disclose including......... why Cleveland?

I think Van Noy was an indicator of a "what's up" a couple weeks ago in case Elandon Roberts fades. They had just picked up Trevor Reilly and put him on the PS who also can play LB.
DW Toys

My theory is that the Collins trade is an extremely delayed compensation to the Browns for the Pats signing Belichick as coach.

 

[Addictive]

Imagine if Bill had just cut Jamie Collins which I'm sure would have been a possibility. It would have really sent a message to the rest of the team.

Fortunately we get some type of pick instead and we make sure Collins can't play for a rival against us in the play-offs.

 

[Addictive]

Nobody brought up anything regarding Easley before he got cut. So either it's all made-up or there is some degree of truth in it but the Patriots till the moment the players get traded/cut are keeping a very tight ship. You decide what you find more plausible.

I think the Easley cut resonates more than ever now. How many teams willingly just cut a 1st rounder two years after they draft him? Most would just let that 1st rounder rehab on IR and play out their rookie contract or at the least trade the former 1st rounder for a late pic. Bill is brutal just cutting a 1st round pick when the player hasn't been in trouble with the law.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think the Easley cut resonates more than ever now. How many teams willingly just cut a 1st rounder two years after they draft him? Most would just let that 1st rounder rehab on IR and play out their rookie contract or at the least trade the former 1st rounder for a late pic. Bill is brutal just cutting a 1st round pick when the player hasn't been in trouble with the law.

Easley: 7 gams, 0 starts for the Rams. 0.5 sacks, 9 tackles, (oddly enough) 2 forced fumbles


So.... he's basically doing nothing outside of the statistical quirk of the FFs.

 

[Betterthanmost]

I don't know if he was being serious but when shaughnessy ask him if he remembers or knew Mike Lombardi, Collins said he did not remember anybody by that name. I found the exchange very strange.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

I wonder why no one brought up all these issues Collins had before he got traded.

Lombardi did, no one else I know of, I haven't watched Chatham for a while though.

 

[Ivan]

I wonder why no one brought up all these issues Collins had before he got traded.

Because they aren't coaching him, don't know what assignments he's blowing or getting right, don't see him in practice and don't know him. So if his concern is saving himself for his next deal (e.g. A.Talib)and his numbers while Belichick is getting the team prepared for a Super Bowl run then there is a serious conflict. Collins is a talented guy who doesn't seem to care much about football and if he was deciding to do things his way then they really had no choice.

 

[Deus Irae]

Lombardi did, no one else I know of, I haven't watched Chatham for a while though.

Price and his radio partner have been on it all year.

 

[deroc5050]

Collins says its a business and that he is moving on.. acting like no big deal.. i will get mine. If he played up to his potential and was eager to win he would have received a nice contract either way. It tells me that he wasn't looking at things logically and winning isn't that important to him. He says its a business but its your contract year Jamie and you just got shipped out of a super bowl contending team for nothing.

If he was protecting himself and playing afraid not to get hurt... then he will get hurt.

 

[TruthSeeker]

OK Cousins. If BB wanted Collins out of town for the good of the Team I get that and he has a right as he sees fit. My issue was compensation. I will guarantee you that many fellow forum followers, if hired to do a one off trade, given the right phone numbers and info could have contacted many NFC Teams, and moved Collins for a second and maybe a player.
...
I get it not to send him to AFC top Teams like the Steelers who are hurt at LB or even the Colts.
All those Teams mentioned would have come up with better compensation.

They had someone on Mike and Mike (apparently in the know) who said that the Patriots had contacted a number teams and that this was the best offer. At which point the question is, "why are we all over-valuing JC?" So I wouldn't be so sure about your compensation claims.

 

[long distance]

They had someone on Mike and Mike (apparently in the know) who said that the Patriots had contacted a number teams and that this was the best offer. At which point the question is, "why are we all over-valuing JC?" So I wouldn't be so sure about your compensation claims.

I guess they wouldn't give him to a contender mid-season. After that there is just no reason for non-contenders to give away any of the future assets for a player that will go to the highest bidder at the end of the season anyway. In Cleveland's case it makes sense to part with one mid round pick since they can afford both - the highest contract offer to Collins and a pick - having so many top picks.

So it was not about value, it was the situation. And trading Collins was not about compensation but moving on from uninspired player.

 

[Pats2000]

Yes, if we assume that Lombardi is either *always* right (or always wrong, I suppose).

Fact is, life isn't like that. There's lots of gray area, not everything is black-and-white. It's perfectly possible that he can say one thing that is entirely true, and another thing that is entirely false. Or he could say a few things, and some percentage of each statement is accurate, while other parts are less accurate.

At any rate, I digress. I can see where you're going with this: you will use Lombardi's statements as ammo against anyone who has defended the defense in the past, yet also defends the Collins trade. I think that's a tad disingenuous for the reasons mentioned above.

There are elements of the defense that are working well and others aspects that need improvement. The overall defensive product isn't where it needs to be, that's for sure. To say they're playing "terrible" -- well I'll disagree with both yourself and Lombardi on that one. Perhaps it's a matter of semantics but I think that's too harsh.

I fail to comprehend how a defense that is top 5 on points against in this league is terrible.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I fail to comprehend how a defense that is top 5 on points against in this league is terrible.

In general, I agree. They are #3 in points allowed. I'll take that all day. In recent weeks their 3rd down and red zone has also improved. Always room for improvement. IMO they need to force more fumbles.

I think for the detractors of the D they cannot stand they style in which they play which is passive, risk-adverse and containing.

BB is on record as saying he was disappointed in the D v BUF. Whether he was speaking about Collins's play specifically is a question i have.

 

[PF_SU]

In general, I agree. They are #3 in points allowed. I'll take that all day. In recent weeks their 3rd down and red zone has also improved. Always room for improvement. IMO they need to force more fumbles.

I think for the detractors of the D they cannot stand they style in which they play which is passive, risk-adverse and containing.

BB is on record as saying he was disappointed in the D v BUF. Whether he was speaking about Collins's play is a question.

They haven't been terrible, but they've been quite inconsistent. Sometimes they are absolutely shutdown, and sometimes they look like trash, unable to get off blocks and make any kind of plays. Generally I also feel there's a bit of a lack of enthusiasm. Rich Hill pointed out the big 3rd down stop Chung made against the Bills where the team's just running off like nothing happened, nobody really congratulating him on the play. Or the huge hit Butler made on Robert Woods, only Ryan comes over while the rest is doing their thing. Don't think Belichick likes seeing that remembering that in training camp 2009 (as shown in the A Football Life series with him) he specifically showed plays to the team to tell them that he wants them to get fired up as a group over good plays.