Excellent Reiss piece about the trade

[IllegalContact]

who knows.....maybe he will sign with the pats after the season

 

[long distance]

It is human nature of course that when you loose something you try to rationalise and dig for the signs that inevitably led to a negative result. Nothing wrong with that. And we all know we could easily find two positive things for every negative about something we used to care about.

But this move was not about the past. Even if all the speculations of possible NE contract offer are off .. it is easy to believe that before the start of the season they were willing to keep Collins and willing to give him a big contract - and however the difference of view of what is the big contract played out during this time - this is a clear indicator that the past of Collins was good enough to give him a chance to a big future here.

The key word that was clearly an issue this year - and you could see it on the field in at least the last two games (when also his snap count declined) is - EFFORT. Lombardi singled it out and he actually is the man who knows what he is talking about since he spent enough time with Jamie - unlike all the rest that are discussing the issue. What influenced his EFFORT is secondary - and it could've happened without intention. I believe the possible disappointment in NE not meeting his expectations contract wise (“respect“ in his agents tweet) could affect his EFFORT also subconsciously. It is possible that he felt he was doing everything like in the past, “playing his game“, but the contract issue and disappointment might be the distractions that took away some of his concentration, passion and dedication - and that can translate quickly into EFFORT without even noticing from within.

BB who could observe this from the outside - unlike his coaches - possibly saw that the situation is not improving and is affecting the team play. Like he said - he will know his team by the end of October - and obviously that is what he found out. If he would believe that this situation can be mended (especially in this long bye time) and that this D could be better with Collins .. there should be no doubt that he would never let him go now. After all .. it will not be easy to replace what Collins WAS.

_

This is a good quote from Kyed article posted above:

But dependability also has to do with a player’s dedication, passion and effort. If a player doesn’t have those three qualities, he won’t stick around long in Foxboro.

 

[bbobbo]

Nice one from Reiss on what might have been going on.

I thought this was the most interesting bit (but the whole thing is worth reading).


Digging deeper on what led the Patriots to trade Jamie Collins

Performance has been inconsistent. Collins was remarkable in the team's Week 3 shutout of the Houston Texans, with a team-high 14 tackles and an interception. But he also struggled in other games, particularly against the run, which led to the coaching staff's decision to limit his role Sunday against the Bills. Collins was taken off the field in what would be considered running situations, ultimately playing just 48 of 78 snaps. That was unusual for him, because he's normally a three-down player, and while Patriots' coaches sung Collins' praises Tuesday, their actions ultimately spoke louder than words. Collins was now viewed by them as a part-time player, as his inconsistency had reached a point that led to a reduced role.

like the gillislee TD? collins initially covers the B gap before switching to the A, but he's too late to make the tackle on gillislee. i don't know if it's someone else's responsibility, bad recognition by collins, or just a good play by the bills:

 

[Patriot Missile]

Meh...I don't know jack :;@t about the inner dealings of this team. Up until now I've been moot about the whole trade. Just not gonna assume anything about practice habits, attitude, personality traits and move on. Like it or not He's a Brown now and that's pretty much it at this point.

 

[long distance]

like the gillislee TD? collins initially covers the B gap before switching to the A, but he's too late to make the tackle on gillislee. i don't know if it's someone else's responsibility, bad recognition by collins, or just a good play by the bills:

I don' know about recognition (concentration) but he certainly doesn't look like the fast powerful playmaker there (effort) that we usually see in him. Remember Roberts in a similar situation vs Bengals stopping the TD? It is possible he knew he was being traded beforehand. If he did .. this was not the reaction BB would care for.

 

[RobertWeathers]

like the gillislee TD? collins initially covers the B gap before switching to the A, but he's too late to make the tackle on gillislee. i don't know if it's someone else's responsibility, bad recognition by collins, or just a good play by the bills:

Maybe Collins was a late to read Gillislee but IMO I think that was a good play by the Bills.

Felton did a great job on High. Thats what hes a fmr All-Pro.

As you say, Collins had initial B gap responsibility which he should have as if you see Incognito slide Brown inward on the Wood combo block and Glenn kicks out Nink to the outside that gives Gillislee two options, middle and off the LG. Maybe he committed too quickly to the B gap.

I'd leave to smarter people than me to state what he should have done.

 

[BobDigital]

One other reason to trade Collins is the NFL is shifting a bit to more of a running league again. It is still pass first but the run has made a bit of a come back and particularly in the AFC. Who will we need to beat in the AFC? The Steelers and Broncos. For that we need LBs that first and foremost stop the run. Collins is not very good at this. Roberts does it better. KC is also a run first team as is Houston (but who is worried about them really).

The only team now likely to make it who is clearly a passing team besides ours in Oakland but they also run a pretty good amount (8th in rush yards per game).

In the NFC is it a bit more muddled but Dallas the top dog there right now clearly is a run first team.

Atlanta is a passing team but has good RBs. GB is clearly pass first and often with no running game as of now. Philly is run first as well. We really have no idea who will come out of the NFC but it seems to be a conference where the top teams are more defensive than offensive based with few exceptions. (the top PPG offenses in the NFC are Atlanta (1), NO (2) CAR (4) DAL (7) PHI (10) GB (11) WAS (15) DET (16) and i won't list below 16... NO/CAR are probably not making the playoffs so besides Atlanta and GB (who likely won't make the SB and even if they do is not a great offense) no teams there have a scary passing game.

So i see the Collins trade as a statement on the league as well.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

I rewatched the 12 men on the field snafu again, looked like Collins and Sheard were halving an animated discussion, for that to happen twice in a quarter is unusual for the Pats. Not sure who's fault it was.

 

[slash83]

Some people will say anything to justify the trade lol.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Maybe Collins was a late to read Gillislee but IMO I think that was a good play by the Bills.

Felton did a great job on High. Thats what hes a fmr All-Pro.

As you say, Collins had initial B gap responsibility which he should have as if you see Incognito slide Brown inward on the Wood combo block and Glenn kicks out Nink to the outside that gives Gillislee two options, middle and off the LG. Maybe he committed too quickly to the B gap.

I'd leave to smarter people than me to state what he should have done.

Thanks @bbobbo for finding this play. Without knowing anything about the design, etc. I'm inclined to agree with you here that Collins had initial B gap responsibility. Whether he should have moved to the A gap quicker is something I can't answer. But to @long distance's point, the big problem from my view is Collins met Gillislee head-on at the 3 yard line, and yet couldn't bring him down. This from a big, strong, athletic soon-to-be-paid Luke Kuechly money guy. As noted, we've seen Hightower and Roberts make those tackles fairly consistently. Obviously no one is perfect and one-off mistakes can be made. But maybe there have been many more tackling issues like this recently, and @BobDigital's point about the running game becoming more prominent could be playing a role here. What huge passing attacks are the Patriots destined to see this year? Pittsburgh with a healthy Roethlisberger, and then maybe Atlanta or Green Bay in the Super Bowl.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

"It is what it is."
Fortunately, the Trading Deadline coincided with the Bye Week, so there is more time for anyone upset by the move to deal with it and adapt.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Thanks @bbobbo for finding this play. Without knowing anything about the design, etc. I'm inclined to agree with you here that Collins had initial B gap responsibility. Whether he should have moved to the A gap quicker is something I can't answer. But to @long distance's point, the big problem from my view is Collins met Gillislee head-on at the 3 yard line, and yet couldn't bring him down. This from a big, strong, athletic soon-to-be-paid Luke Kuechly money guy. As noted, we've seen Hightower and Roberts make those tackles fairly consistently. Obviously no one is perfect and one-off mistakes can be made. But maybe there have been many more tackling issues like this recently

Yea I guess if I'm look for faults thats it....he went high on him. He didn't shy away from the contact but his technique could have been better

 

[AQPE]

And to make superstar money in NE, a player needs to have every quality that Belichick requires, including being an outstanding representative of the Patriot way in the locker room and on the field. The big money requires showing up big in that way. And apparently that just wasn't him.

I totally agree with this, but would only add that like with every such "rule" for a professional organization, there are exceptions.

For me this reminds me most of the Richard Seymour situation. I don't know where he really stacked up regarding his locker room demeanor in his prime, but I'd be willing to bet it was something less than they were getting from Bruschi and McGinest. I have no specific reason for that, it's just a gut feeling. And yet (even if that is true) when the time came the Pats made him the top-paid D-lineman due to his special level of play on the field at that point. That exception was clearly limited, however, and they shipped him out when his play "somewhat" diminished even though IMHO they clearly could have used him for a couple more years.

In Collins' case, I don't think you can say they just wanted him out - they offered him $11 million per year - but I think it just came down to his level of play on the field combined with his demeanor not being quite to the level they feel they want to go beyond their sense of value for his position - I'd guess he was a "7" on their 10 point scale and to justify paying him Miller money they decided he needed to be a "9" if not a "10"

 

[long distance]

This is from today's PFT article:

Mike Lombardi, a longtime friend and colleague of Patriots coach Bill Belichick, ripped Jamie Collins for lack of effort and poor play after Belichick traded Collins to Cleveland. Those comments from Lombardi appeared to offer some insight into Belichick’s own feelings about Collins.

Today, Belichick talked to reporters about the Collins trade, and although he declined to specify precisely why he traded Collins, he hinted that he agreed with Lombardi’s assessment.

“Look, Mike’s one of the smartest people I know,” Belichick said. “He’s one of the smartest people I’ve worked with. He was a huge asset to me for the two years he was here. Mike’s a smart guy and he studies football and he knows it very well.”

 

[Addictive]

There clearly isn't just one reason why Collins was traded and it would seem probable that Coach Bill has been wondering what could happen about Collins since the Pats lost the Broncos at the end of last season when he got turned around by their TE for two touch downs. Yes, I know JC played well in others areas of the game.

Trading for Mingo before the start of the season and getting him involved by playing him on Special Teams while Mingo learns the playbook. I expect Mingo to take more snaps as we get into the second half of the season and Roberts is already playing well.

Trading for Van Noy; perhaps the Patriots got a steal here, time will tell but the fact is we got an out of sorts LB from Detroit who just happen to have a former Pats front office executive as their GM; Van Noy was a 2nd round talent playing in a scheme which didn't maximise his talents. The Van Noy trade was a head scratcher for me at the time but now it shows GM Bill thinking one step ahead on behalf of Coach Bill.

I'll always believe on a talent level Coach Bill always wanted Jamie Collins to be a Patriot but to be on the team you have to buy into the scheme and Do Your Job. If you are freelancing and positioning yourself to make big plays while not doing the basics and not being a team first guy than you won't last long on the Pats.

GM Bill probably had a figure in mind to offer Collins and his agent, perhaps $11 million per year which is a significant number. How many LBs earn more than that, does anyone know? If the agent for Collins was asking for Von Miller money then he is misguided in his evaluation because JC hasn't the body of work to ask for that type of contract despite having the physical body to tantalise coaches and owners of turning that potential into the best defensive player in the NFL.

GM Bill has drafted well on defence the past five years and we now don't have the cap space to extend them all so we have traded away Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins and we will likely now give long term deals to Butler and Hightower.

Look at Suh down in Miami, he basically said in the final few weeks of his time in Detroit "I'm going to let my agent choose my next team" i.e. the team that offers the most money is where i will sign. He wasn't concerned about the scheme or if it would play to his destructive strengths. And Suh not only doesn't live up to his new contract which was near impossible to do but he takes plays off and freelances. Could Suh buy into a team first approach, perhaps? I'm not even sure how much he loves playing football.

I think it is a masterstroke by Bill to send Collins to Cleveland. Jamie goes to sleep 7-1 and wakes up 0-8. Jamie goes from winning a Super Bowl and being on the best team in football to going to the worst team for the last 15 years. Bill sends Jamie to a team that the Patriots have already played and beaten this season and who are done for the season and can't make the play-offs and just positioning for its draft place. Bill has sent Collins to a team which has enough picks to trade one for an eight game cameo in which they'll hope to secure Collins on a long term deal. There must be numerous teams looking to get JC on a long term contract next summer.

Bill sending Jamie to Cleveland means Collins can't come back and haunt the Patriots this season or in the play-offs playing for a competitive rival.

Bill sending Jamie to Cleveland sends a huge wake up call to the rest of the team to buy back into the concept and Pats way of life: Do Your Job.

 

[long distance]

And something on the theme of freelancing and respecting assignments by BB:

"I've coached every player I've ever coached the same way," Belichick said. "You have an assignment, you have something that you're responsible for, and then the instincts come after that. As long as you cover your guy, that's your job. You want to cover him off, you want to cover him on, inside technique, outside technique, backpedal, squat, there's a million ways to do it. If you have him covered, I'm going to be happy about it. You're going to be happy about it, right? So that's the bottom line. .. After that, there's an instinctive part to every play .. a player's instinct and style of play, that belongs to each of us. We're all different. But there's certain fundamentals that, as a coach, you're obligated to teach the best way you know how. And you work with individual players within that framework."

from: Belichick: Lombardi 'one of the smartest people I know'

 

[bbobbo]

here's another play, the second play of the game. collins shoots the gap between LT cordy glenn (#77) and pulling C eric wood (#70), and gillislee goes outside for a 28-yard gain. collins commits before the handoff occurs and ends up in the backfield completely away from the play. it seems to me that he should have waited to see which way gillislee decided to run before committing. similar to the TD play, collins commits too early.

and it looks like hightower does just that--he hangs back and would have been able to cover the exact same gap that collins charges into. so i think collins failed to set the edge.

 

[archstanton543]

"but now it shows GM Bill thinking one step ahead on behalf of Coach Bill."

How the heck does that even work?

 

[long distance]

Bottom line:

When you're following your instincts within the system and go-in with 100% passion and effort you will most likely make “more big plays than mistakes“ (Flores). When you don't .. following your instincts will lead you to poor play.

 

[Bill Lee]

I would not want to be Collins playing for Cleveland.

He will likely make outstanding money, but also be expected to bring wins to the Browns making that kind of coin. Their defense is ranked 30th.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2016 DEFENSE EFFICIENCY RATINGS

Yet Hue Jackson already gave him a license to freelance. He'll be able to do the things that got him in trouble here in New England, i.e. show off his talents (at a cost to the team) so he can maximize the offers he gets in free agency.

A few flashy sacks or backfield tackles will at least give the Cleveland execs some highlight films that will show that they are 'doing something' to get better.

So it's better for him to be a great player on a bad team that already knows it won't be winning many games this year, he can freelance at will.