Dr. Z: Colts No Huddle Killed Pats...

[jbb9s]

All of the Pats draft picks were NOT for offense. Stephen Gostkowski is Special teams. Willie Andrews, Jeremy Mincey, and LeKevan Smith were all defense.

As for you crapping on the players, your expectations for rookies are clearly out of whack.

Kaczur played pretty damn well last year and, once he was healthy, this year as well. To say he shouldn't have been playing in a play-off game is just stupidity on your part.

Hey man, I am no O-Line scout but I heard multiple times during the year, including specifically after the Miami loss, that Kazcur had been clowned ruthlessly in that game to the point of embarresment. And the fact is that O'Callahan had that starting job IN FRONT of Kazcur until his neck injury - so how does a 6th round rookie step in front of a returning starter?

And I am not dumping on those draft picks (I like them all over a 3-5 year horizon - including CJ) - you missed the point. I am saying that a few talented fast rookie SEC linebackers/safeties who could have relieved our defense in the 4th and done something more than look at the back of Clark's jersey would have been nice. Basically, BB and SP draft picks put Peas up sh*t creek without a paddle and the same can not be said about the Josh.

 

[unoriginal]

Hey man, I am no O-Line scout but I heard multiple times during the year, including specifically after the Miami loss, that Kazcur had been clowned ruthlessly in that game to the point of embarresment. And the fact is that O'Callahan had that starting job IN FRONT of Kazcur until his neck injury - so how does a 6th round rookie step in front of a returning starter?

And I am not dumping on those draft picks (I like them all over a 3-5 year horizon - including CJ) - you missed the point. I am saying that a few talented fast rookie SEC linebackers/safeties who could have relieved our defense in the 4th and done something more than look at the back of Clark's jersey would have been nice. Basically, BB and SP draft picks put Peas up sh*t creek without a paddle and the same can not be said about the Josh.

O'Callaghan got the job before Kaczur because Kaczur was coming off surgery to repair his season-ending shoulder injury, and was real slow coming back, re-injuring himself a couple of times.

When Kaczur got healthy, he entered into a rotation with O'Callaghan, a rotation that ended when O'Callaghan bounced off Urlacher like a superball and hurt his neck.

Also, O'Callaghan was a fifth round selection, right at the top of the round.

Kaczur has, at passing glance, not looked the best out there. However, he has performed no worse than any other Patriots tackle in recent memory, and he's only a second-year player. As long as he doesn't fail his conditioning test at camp and then dissappear a la Greg Randall, we should celebrate him for what he is, the second-best offensive tackle selection BB/Pioli have made so far.

As for the rest, well, we've yet to see a young linebacker that could excel in BB's defense, apart from the unobtainable Jonathon Vilma.

 

[DaBruinz]

Hey man, I am no O-Line scout but I heard multiple times during the year, including specifically after the Miami loss, that Kazcur had been clowned ruthlessly in that game to the point of embarresment. And the fact is that O'Callahan had that starting job IN FRONT of Kazcur until his neck injury - so how does a 6th round rookie step in front of a returning starter?

And I am not dumping on those draft picks (I like them all over a 3-5 year horizon - including CJ) - you missed the point. I am saying that a few talented fast rookie SEC linebackers/safeties who could have relieved our defense in the 4th and done something more than look at the back of Clark's jersey would have been nice. Basically, BB and SP draft picks put Peas up sh*t creek without a paddle and the same can not be said about the Josh.

How does a 5th round pick (you don't even know what round guys were drafted in) step in over a returning starter? That's EASY. Its called KACZUR was retrurning from injury. One that he suffered at the end of the season last year and that he was still re-habbing his shoulder going into training camp. That's why the Pats put Kaczur on the PUP list to start training camp. Kaczur was finally activated off the PUP list like on August 23rd (almost a month through training camp) and O'Callaghan had already secured the spot from Britt. Kaczur started off as the 4th OT and worked his way back into the rotation by mid-season and was pushing O'Callaghan for the starting position. If you don't understand that it takes time to get back to game shape, well, that is your issue.

Also, Kaczur wasn't the ONLY lineman getting beat in the Miami game. A game you CLEARLY didn't watch so you wouldn't really know what you are talking about. The whole O-line got schooled in that game. Heck, BRADY got schooled as well.

You sure as hell did dump on the draft picks. As for your BS about the SEC LBs and Safeties, obviously BB and Pioli didn't think that they could have worked in the Pats system. And their opinion weighs a lot more in my book than someone who can't even be bothered to comment on games he's actually seen.

Now, this idea that BB and Pioli picking the way they did put Pees up a creek without a paddle really doesn't hold any water. In fact, it's plain idiocy. Why? Because you clearly missed the past off-season where the Pats brought in Warfield, Gardner, Tebucky Jones, and Mel Mitchell. Warfield couldn't cut it. Gardner, Jones and Mitchell got injured during training camp. Randall Gay re-injured his ankle during training camp. All 4 of them went on IR. Are you saying that BB and Pioli are supposed to KNOW that those 4 are going to get injured in training camp?

Is BB supposed to know that Jeremy Mincey, someone they had pegged for a OLB spot, would be lazy during camp and not give his full effort because he figured that he's get a free pass this year while he learned the defense?

Come on. Stop being stupid. Your hindsight might be 20/20, but you clearly are fooling yourself regarding last off-season if you think that the Pats could have added ROOKIE players on defense that would have helped more than the vets that they signed after the injuries started.

Better yet, why don't you tell everyone how YOU would have drafted last year. Also, tell everyone who you would have signed last off-season. And please make sure you tell us whether they would have gotten injured or not.

 

[mgteich]

One first down to Brown (out of two tries) would have indeed got us into the SB. Instead we decided to run to set up a field goal and give the ball back to Manning.

 

[jbb9s]

How does a 5th round pick (you don't even know what round guys were drafted in) step in over a returning starter? That's EASY. Its called KACZUR was retrurning from injury. One that he suffered at the end of the season last year and that he was still re-habbing his shoulder going into training camp. That's why the Pats put Kaczur on the PUP list to start training camp. Kaczur was finally activated off the PUP list like on August 23rd (almost a month through training camp) and O'Callaghan had already secured the spot from Britt. Kaczur started off as the 4th OT and worked his way back into the rotation by mid-season and was pushing O'Callaghan for the starting position. If you don't understand that it takes time to get back to game shape, well, that is your issue.

Also, Kaczur wasn't the ONLY lineman getting beat in the Miami game. A game you CLEARLY didn't watch so you wouldn't really know what you are talking about. The whole O-line got schooled in that game. Heck, BRADY got schooled as well.

You sure as hell did dump on the draft picks. As for your BS about the SEC LBs and Safeties, obviously BB and Pioli didn't think that they could have worked in the Pats system. And their opinion weighs a lot more in my book than someone who can't even be bothered to comment on games he's actually seen.

Now, this idea that BB and Pioli picking the way they did put Pees up a creek without a paddle really doesn't hold any water. In fact, it's plain idiocy. Why? Because you clearly missed the past off-season where the Pats brought in Warfield, Gardner, Tebucky Jones, and Mel Mitchell. Warfield couldn't cut it. Gardner, Jones and Mitchell got injured during training camp. Randall Gay re-injured his ankle during training camp. All 4 of them went on IR. Are you saying that BB and Pioli are supposed to KNOW that those 4 are going to get injured in training camp?

Is BB supposed to know that Jeremy Mincey, someone they had pegged for a OLB spot, would be lazy during camp and not give his full effort because he figured that he's get a free pass this year while he learned the defense?

Come on. Stop being stupid. Your hindsight might be 20/20, but you clearly are fooling yourself regarding last off-season if you think that the Pats could have added ROOKIE players on defense that would have helped more than the vets that they signed after the injuries started.

Better yet, why don't you tell everyone how YOU would have drafted last year. Also, tell everyone who you would have signed last off-season. And please make sure you tell us whether they would have gotten injured or not.

What I said was that Peas defensive collapse was more excusable than Josh's inability to punch in a TD in the second half or convert a first down milk the clock because the draft in 06. Peas simply had no bodies. I do not expect rookies to start in this defensive scheme but they can definitely substitute after learning for 18 1/2 games.

Following objective statements:

A) RB, WD, TE, TE, K, OL were drafted with the first 6 picks of the 2006 draft.

B) So I, yes unbelievably, said O'Callahan was a 6th round pick when he in fact was the 6th pick the Pats - (this should def. be grounds to get me kicked me out of this high and mighty chat room)

C) The Patriots did manage to score 34 points in their last game of the season. The Patriots have never lost a game when they scored over 30 points in a game since BB was hired. The players that contributed to that scoring were not drafted in 2006 (except if you include a fumble and the kicker).

D) The Colts managed to score 32 points in the second half, 38 overall. This is a slight problem. Actually, this is a big problem - the biggest deficit ever overcome in the 82 league championship games EVER played.

E) The drafting of 6 consecutive non-defensive players was a surprise to everyone, including people with 4000+ posts on Patsfans.com, Mel Kiper, and probably the defensive coordinator of the team.

F) Any defensive coordinator with three 10+ year starting linebackers (one with 17 yrs) would probably appreciate some young talent to be tutored by the vets and occasionally takes reps, especially in the second half, when another team is hanging 14+ points on them per quarter.

G) Vets get hurt more frequently than player in years 1 thru 5. More importantly, they recover and heal much much slower. When older guys are going down, it is not always unexpected. This is a factor when older guys are brought in VIA FA and not drafted or signed in their prime. Therefore, the statement you made about not being able to predict all these injuries is slightly loaded: the team was rolling the dice and they knew it. We have gambled before and it paid off big (Dillon in his twilight).

Gay was coming off IR from the year before. I don't think anyone held their breath for that guy and I don't think his status affected the thought process of not taking a DB, for example, in their first 6 picks.

And, by the way, you should flag this statement of yours about how BB doesn't like SEC defensive speed - I wouldn't be surprised if we have 2 or 3 defensive players from that conference in training camp. The guys coming out of LSU were recruited by Saban and Saban no longer is in the NFL, so I'd say BB and NS are having some extensive talks right about now about prospects.

How in the hell you go on a rampage is slightly uncomfortable to me. Remember this thread is "Colts No Hudle Killed Pats" and I was pointing out one reason why. The DC had more of a predictable destruction.

 

[jbb9s]

That, in a nutshell, was the story of the game, and for the most part, the main cause of the loss.

And, isn't it Pees, not Peas?

Hell - by the time I learn how to spell his last name, he will be a head coach somewhere.

 

[RayClay]

Actually it was the short week, flu, key injuries, and high temperatures in the dome that killed the Pats D. That's what cost us the game -- not Manning, dropped passes by Reche, too many men in the huddle, or bad officiating on pass interference.

Credit where credit is due, though -- the Colts no huddle was the perfect thing given the Pats problems with conditioning and injury.

Actually it was all those things plus a lack of depth and youth at Safety and Linebacker.

 

[RayClay]

We avoided one problem with the no huddle by not having anyone to substitute in anyway.

 

[Mike the Brit]

I like Dr. Z! Maybe I'm the only one, but I like to read his columns, even if he goes on tangents sometimes. I like that he will criticize anyone if he thinks they deserve it, he doesn't have any sacred cows.

I don't always agree with him, like when he went after Seymour, but I think he does a good job overall.

I knew there had to be someone somewhere! (Doesn't the fact that his ego seems to be the size of an aircraft hangar get to you?)

 

[PATSNUTme]

Got anything different add yourself? Guess not, same old thing.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Actually it was all those things plus a lack of depth and youth at Safety and Linebacker.

It's being totally ignored by the McDaniels basher(s) that both Kevin and Corey were injured and did not play the second half. Both ran the ball effectively in the first half. Both are excellent on the screen pass and draws.

But why would someone, who has a personal vendetta, let those facts get in the way of a good rant.

I think we all know who I am talking about. End of story!

 

[RayClay]

It's being totally ignored by the McDaniels basher(s) that both Kevin and Corey were injured and did not play the second half. Both ran the ball effectively in the first half. Both are excellent on the screen pass and draws.

But why would someone, who has a personal vendetta, let those facts get in the way of a good rant.

I think we all know who I am talking about. End of story!

Sorry, I wasn't aware McDaniels also coached defense. My bad.

 

[cstjohn17]

As badly as our D played in the 2nd half, go back and look at the game book, and complet play by play. Our defense had three great surges in the second half, twice forcing the Colts to punt from deep in their own end, once from the goal line.

On both occasions the offense fizzled, IMO because the play calling was quite bad, and in each instance, had to settle for field goals...that was a potential of 8 points squandered.

Same thing in the first half, as the 2nd quarter was winding down. The defense forced a Colt punt that we took over near midfield, with a chance to make it 28-3. Once again, play calling, as well as some bad execution, forced us to give the ball back, this time wqith NO POINTS, and the Colts marched down for three points to narrow it to 21-6 at halftime. The rest we know.

+Youare correct, IN PART, that our defense played poorly in the second half, but what a lot of you are forgetting, that as badly as they played, the ALSO, gave the offense several opportunities, DAMNED GOOD ONES< TOO, and the offense squandered them away.

The defense was forced to play themselves into exhaustion while the offense did nothing to hold up their part of the bargain...mainly because, again IMO, the play selection was pitiful...for the most part.

I blame the offense as well, they played the whole second half like a puppy who just got spanked for taking a wizz on the rug. Scared, unsure and with no confidence.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Sorry, I wasn't aware McDaniels also coached defense. My bad.

The point was made, not by you, that the OC was at fault that the D was wasted in the second half. That is what I was responding to, not anything that you said.

When you have to play the immortal Rashad Baker at safety in a critical period during the 3rd-4th period, I think that says all that needs to be said about the situation or D was in.

 

[ATippett56]

If Dr. Z says it , it must be true.

BTW, what is he a Dr. of?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Must be a doctor of sleep!

 

[DaBruinz]

What I said was that Peas defensive collapse was more excusable than Josh's inability to punch in a TD in the second half or convert a first down milk the clock because the draft in 06. Peas simply had no bodies. I do not expect rookies to start in this defensive scheme but they can definitely substitute after learning for 18 1/2 games.

Well, 1st off, the Pats scored 1 TD and 2 FGs in the second half. To say that they didn't score more was the result of the 2006 Draft is really stupid.

Now, as for draft picks supposedly substituting after learning for 18.5 games, that all depends on the position. What you are clearly discounting is the complexity of the Pats defense. Where was the ISSUE on defense? With the LBs and D-Line. Well, the Pats had 5 D-line dressed and 7 LBs. that is fully a quarter of their game roster.

Following objective statements:

A) RB, WD, TE, TE, K, OL were drafted with the first 6 picks of the 2006 draft.

B) So I, yes unbelievably, said O'Callahan was a 6th round pick when he in fact was the 6th pick the Pats - (this should def. be grounds to get me kicked me out of this high and mighty chat room)

No one said you should be kicked out. Nice way to make things up there, chumly.

C) The Patriots did manage to score 34 points in their last game of the season. The Patriots have never lost a game when they scored over 30 points in a game since BB was hired. The players that contributed to that scoring were not drafted in 2006 (except if you include a fumble and the kicker).

Really? David Thomas and Chad Jackson were out there on many special teams coverages including the kick-offs. Are you saying that good field position on a few kick-offs didn't help?

D) The Colts managed to score 32 points in the second half, 38 overall. This is a slight problem. Actually, this is a big problem - the biggest deficit ever overcome in the 82 league championship games EVER played.

E) The drafting of 6 consecutive non-defensive players was a surprise to everyone, including people with 4000+ posts on Patsfans.com, Mel Kiper, and probably the defensive coordinator of the team.

Gostkowski is special teams. He's neither offense nor defense.

2004, 4 of the Pats 1st 5 picks were defense. Same with 2003. So what if 5 of 6 were offense in 2006.

F) Any defensive coordinator with three 10+ year starting linebackers (one with 17 yrs) would probably appreciate some young talent to be tutored by the vets and occasionally takes reps, especially in the second half, when another team is hanging 14+ points on them per quarter.

Hmm. I guess that Eric Alexander, Pierre Woods, Corey Mays, TBC, and Jeremy Mincey aren't considered young talent. Great to know. Unfortunately, that doesn't fly.

G) Vets get hurt more frequently than player in years 1 thru 5. More importantly, they recover and heal much much slower. When older guys are going down, it is not always unexpected. This is a factor when older guys are brought in VIA FA and not drafted or signed in their prime. Therefore, the statement you made about not being able to predict all these injuries is slightly loaded: the team was rolling the dice and they knew it. We have gambled before and it paid off big (Dillon in his twilight).

Actually, its not loaded. Your being ignorant if you think that you can PREDICT injuries.

Gay was coming off IR from the year before. I don't think anyone held their breath for that guy and I don't think his status affected the thought process of not taking a DB, for example, in their first 6 picks.

Then you would again be ignorant. The Pats had Gay, Warfield, Hobbs, Samuel, Chad Scott, and Antoine Spann going into the Draft. I feel confident, based on the Pats drafting previously and the documented information on how they conduct their draft that says they draft best VALUE available.

Gay has shown plenty of ability before his injuries. Unfortunately, Gay's ankle didn't heal the way they had hoped and it was re-injured.

And, by the way, you should flag this statement of yours about how BB doesn't like SEC defensive speed - I wouldn't be surprised if we have 2 or 3 defensive players from that conference in training camp. The guys coming out of LSU were recruited by Saban and Saban no longer is in the NFL, so I'd say BB and NS are having some extensive talks right about now about prospects.

I think you need to READ more closely because I did NOT say that BB didn't like SEC defensive speed.

Here is what I said. Maybe THIS TIME, you can actually comprehend it.

As for your BS about the SEC LBs and Safeties, obviously BB and Pioli didn't think that they could have worked in the Pats system. And their opinion weighs a lot more in my book than someone who can't even be bothered to comment on games he's actually seen.

Now, about the Nick Saban- Bill Belichick connection for drafting, here is some info for you:

From 2000-2004, Saban could have recommended 14 players out of 44 to the Pats, and that includes Tom Brady, whom we all know was sold to Belichick by **** Rehbein. Of the 14 drafted players, only 4 beyond Tom Brady have done anything. They are Matt Light, Jarvis Green, Ben Watson, and David Givens.

Yes, he did suggest Eric Alexander and Randall Gay, but Alexander hasn't produced much yet (though he is showing signs) and Randall Gay has been injured the last 2 years.

One of the best years that the Pats drafted was when they picked players that Saban didn't coach or players he hadn't ever played against. That was 2003.

How in the hell you go on a rampage is slightly uncomfortable to me. Remember this thread is "Colts No Hudle Killed Pats" and I was pointing out one reason why. The DC had more of a predictable destruction.

I know what the thread was about. There was no rampage as you claim. All I did was take your post apart bit by bit because of the fallacies behind your argument.

 

[shakadave]

Your points are well taken, and very well said.

Most people that dont watch a game in detail will look at the way the Colts scored in the 2nd half and immediately blame the defense, which, to a point, is rightfully correct.

What they seem not to see, and what they forget, in that particular game, is that as badly as the defense played, they, also,l had some very good moments, and as I have said, on two back to back occasions forced the Colts to punt from deep in their own territory, once from the goal line,and the offense squandered the opportunities to really take control of the game.

Even with the failures of the defense, they still managed to give the offense ample opportunities, and the offesne, to put it mildly, looked like sh!t, especially with the plays they were given to run..and those would havebeenEXACTLY the right timeto take advantage and use the no huddle to keep the Colts defense on the field without adjustments. But, IMO, the OC had his head up his ass.

Sure, in the 2nd half our defense was not up to par, probably, in part, because our offense never gve the dfefense any time to rest.

NEM is basically right on in this thread.

 

[PATSNUTme]

NEM is basically right on in this thread.[/quote]

If you look at the game with blinders and have a personal agenda and vedetta againts the OC, he would be right.

However if you look at was NOT available to the team in the second half, he is wrong, again.

 

[PATSNUTme]

That's a cop out and a sorry excuse. Josh was given the opportunities, no matter who he had vailable, and he blew them. The game book proves it. Right, again.

Facts are not an excuse. Don't let them get in your way from a old, tired, and repetitive rant.

All because of a personal agenda and vendetta. End of Story.

 

[richpats]

NEM is basically right on in this thread.

I wonder if our OC was hampered by the injuries to Dillon AND Faulk? Since everyone defending our D is using the "exhausted/hurt" line and the "lack of personnel" are the reasons they played like sh!t, why doesn't it apply to the offense?

Offenses that have guys dropping wide-open passes, putting 12 men in the huddle and a QB throwing to the other team on the last 2 drives can't blame the playcalling.

EDIT: And don't get me started on the no-call on the end zone pass to Reche.