Defensive End Disappointment

[maineman209]

I wonder if they are seeing Rivers as more of a stand-up player which is why they are being slow with him.

Much to learn about the running and passing game hes does (with a Yoda voice)

I've wondered about the OLB possibilities with Rivers, too. He measured 6041/248 at the Combine. His 4.60 40-yd and 1.60 10-yd are very good for a "big" LB. But then there's his 4.79 shuttle and the fact that he didn't even perform the 3-cone.

OTOH, pre-draft measureables certainly aren't worth much out of context, and, in his first pre-season, before the ACL, it appeared that the Pats were playing him off the line a bit, and even dropping him into coverage.

Regardless, if he's not active, it's likely that the Pats coaches aren't (yet) seeing what they need to see from him in whatever role they think is best for him - or, at least, not enough of it to make him active over someone else for that specific game.

He could be anywhere between "really close to becoming a regular" to "long way to go" ... as far as we can know.

 

[Ring 6]

I've wondered about the OLB possibilities with Rivers, too. He measured 6041/248 at the Combine. His 4.60 40-yd and 1.60 10-yd are very good for a "big" LB. But then there's his 4.79 shuttle and the fact that he didn't even perform the 3-cone.

OTOH, pre-draft measureables certainly aren't worth much out of context, and, in his first pre-season, before the ACL, it appeared that the Pats were playing him off the line a bit, and even dropping him into coverage.

Regardless, if he's not active, it's likely that the Pats coaches aren't (yet) seeing what they need to see from him in whatever role they think is best for him - or, at least, not enough of it to make him active over someone else for that specific game.

He could be anywhere between "really close to becoming a regular" to "long way to go" ... as far as we can know.

I think he fits in multiple roles and part of the issue may be getting him up to speed to be able to play those.
It would seem to make sense to have him active in order to pass rush from the edge on 3rd and long or 2 minute drills but bb seems to not favor activating guys for such a role.
It’s not a good sign that Simon came in and was active after 3 practices in the role Rivers would be playing either.
It’s not unheard of though for a guy like him to earn playing time, do well and become a regular.
Well just have to wait and see.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

WTF, Dude?? You want me to do all your work for you? Are you somehow incapacitated to the degree that you can't do your own research?

After all, YOU are the one making the claims/accusations. That makes YOU the prosecution and, by rights, the one who has to prove your case. Since I just shared some "discovery" with you, you should be thanking me.

Regardless, as others have noted, your entire premise is off-target. In the various iterations and permutations of the Patriots defenses over the years, QB pressure has never been the task of the DEs alone - not even primarily the DEs. It's always been a group effort from the Pats' Front 6/7, unlike other teams' defenses.

First off, I did give evidence but my evidence was rejected. Fine.

A point was then made that pressures and hurries were more important. I said "fine"...show me how this relates to their performance and in comparison to something else. I'm not responsible for making someone else's point.

So the DE position does have some degree of responsibility to provide pressure, correct? Chandler Jones provided pressure on his own, didn't he? He rushed primarily on the edges, correct? In your opinion, what objective "test" does one use to evaluate the performance of a DE?

 

[TheRainMaker]

I did not think Rivers would end up being the next Shawn Crable, but it’s not looking good.

 

[Joker]

"I'm a disheartened and angry Giants fan and I despise the Patriots like I despise the Red Sox...my Dad, Angelo brought me up to be a hater of the Pats and Sox. I'm so infuriated at the horrible state of my Giants, I log on here to start a long contrived argument wherein I get the chance to label all the respondents morons..."PROVE I'M WRONG" I throw in their faces...and suddenly I feel powerful again..think I'll go to Caserta's and get a tomato pie..."

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

Eli is all done.He sucks.Sorry for your loss.

 

[PScottman]

So the DE position does have some degree of responsibility to provide pressure, correct? Chandler Jones provided pressure on his own, didn't he? He rushed primarily on the edges, correct? In your opinion, what objective "test" does one use to evaluate the performance of a DE?

Just come out and say it - sacks are your measuring stick. That's fine, but it simply is NOT the measuring stick for the Patriots nor toward winning in the NFL.

I'll counter that league sack leading DEs on their second and later contracts cost WAY too much cap room and do not on average contribute as much as other skill positions toward wins. Found an interesting thesis about what most influences winning in the NFL that examined some of this:

"The three defensive measures of sacks, interceptions and fumble recoveries were all significant at the 1% level. However, the interesting part is that they were only significant in both regressions during the second half. Sacks had the lowest marginal effect on the probability of victory (3% increase per each sack), though the marginal effect of sacks was not significantly different from the effect of fumble recoveries (5% per fumble recovery). Of the three, interceptions had the highest marginal effect, with each interception increasing the probability of victory by 7% per each interception."
Zach Alleva - Claremont McKenna College

Wonder why Gilmore got paid by the Patriots? Maybe because while DEs can absolutely contribute to an INT, the CB actually has to be in consistently good position and catch the ball. Add in the likely cost difference of three "good" DEs vs one "star" DE and the ability to both rotate and have depth as a bulwark against injury, and the Patriots are taking the more statistically backed approach to team building focused on wins.

Eye tests and statistics don't mix.




Citation link:
https://scholarship.claremont.edu/c...&httpsredir=1&article=2432&context=cmc_theses

 

[maineman209]

In your opinion, what objective "test" does one use to evaluate the performance of a DE?

IMHO, this is no "objective test" for evaluating the performance of a DE in isolation in a Pats defense. Chandler Jones had great pressure stats, but was mediocre to poor at containing the edge. Edge setting/contain generates virtually no stats, but it's a crucial part of the job for every edge-player in the Pats defensive system - OLBs, safeties, and even boundary corners, as well as for DEs.

For example, for me, the most impressive part of John Simon's debut with the Pats was not the sack or the pressure. It was his consistent awareness of, and attention to, setting the edge, whether the play was run or pass. That's the stuff that made Nink and Vrabel such great (complete) players for the Pats.

In contrast, Jones and Marsh are the kind of DEs who most often blindly charge into the backfield and, thus, are easily trapped inside and taken out of the play. They may get more sacks and pressures, but those come at a steep cost to the overall performance of the defense. Even Eric Lee and Marquis Flowers were better players for the Pats defense than Marsh.

IOW, as I previously noted, your premise - your attempt to "evaluate" the Pats defensive ends purely on the basis of sack, pressure and tackle stats - is flawed to begin with. You'll get nothing of value from pursuing it.

 

[DarrylS]

Sack stats are not worth much if a DE is not holding the edge.. inow doing their job, as we do not know the specific assignment and that assignment changes from week to week dependent on the game plan.

Currently the NFL is seeing unprecedented passing stats during the first 4 weeks (228 TD's vs. 205 last year), and despite teams pressuring the QB it does not seem to make all that much of a difference.. the pendulum has swung towards the offense.