College VIDEO on Mac - the potential is clearly there - it’s frustrating

[Ian]

Those two are 27.6 mph for the floater and 44.3 mph for the 20 yard crosser.

Those are two touch throws ... what exactly are we doing? I think all of us realize Jones doesn't have a rocket for an arm. His thing coming out of college were his brain and his accuracy. Arm strength wasn't exactly his thing.

If we're going to go down that road, the point of the original image you posted - when I put them out there - was that Jones has as stronger arm than Zappe, which was the original argument people were making and what prompted me to pull those. Jones threw his flat-footed, Zappe had to crow-hop and fire his:

 

[Ian]

That one is 39 mph on a deep out. Those balls can be easily picked.

But it wasn't ... so ...?

 

[Ian]

Cousins had a 59 mph velocity at the combine. Average is 54.

Exactly. Jones threw 54 flat-footed. Not great, not terrible.

 

[venecol]

Watched the first three weeks of this season. For those who say Mac can't throw the deep ball and hit someone in stride, you may have forgotten the bomb to Bourne:

I will say overall, Jones played pretty well in Week one...better than I thought he did. The interception to Parker was right there and bounced off the top of the guy's helmet. If Parker had made the same play that Agholor did here:

...it would have been a moot point.

I think the biggest thing that stands out is that much like last year, he doesn't put the ball in harm's way or make many dumb decisions, which is sort of all you can ask from a young player. The Steelers' pick was a lob that he didn't get enough on that Fitzpatrick made a good play on. It is what it is. Yes, he did have that one play where he was flushed to his left that he got a little lucky on.

The Ravens game was obviously frustrating. The first pick was a bad one, with the second being a miscommunication between he and Parker. The last one came when he got hit as he threw and got hurt.

Otherwise, there were more positives than I recalled. Also, watching the first three weeks, arm strength certainly wasn't an issue:

This throw against the Ravens showed off some of that: (released at their own 29, caught at the Ravens' 43)

And this completion to Parker:

Definitely, some plays I had forgotten about. And obviously, he got hurt at the end, but that sum up the first three games.

The third one (28 yd to Bourne) is at 50.7 mph. Fourth one (30-yd to Parker) doesn't show air time. Curious because that one looks good.

 

[Steve102]

Those are two touch throws ... what exactly are we doing? I think all of us realize Jones doesn't have a rocket for an arm. His thing coming out of college were his brain and his accuracy. Arm strength wasn't exactly his thing.

If we're going to go down that road, the point of the original image you posted - when I put them out there - was that Jones has as stronger arm than Zappe, which was the original argument people were making and what prompted me to pull those. Jones threw his flat-footed, Zappe had to crow-hop and fire his:

You know exactly what he's doing.

 

[Ian]

The third one (28 yd to Bourne) is at 50.7 mph. Fourth one (30-yd to Parker) doesn't show air time. Curious because that one looks good.

1.57

 

[Ian]

Those are two touch throws ... what exactly are we doing? I think all of us realize Jones doesn't have a rocket for an arm. His thing coming out of college were his brain and his accuracy. Arm strength wasn't exactly his thing.

If we're going to go down that road, the point of the original image you posted - when I put them out there - was that Jones has as stronger arm than Zappe, which was the original argument people were making and what prompted me to pull those. Jones threw his flat-footed, Zappe had to crow-hop and fire his:

It also needs to be said in fairness to Zappe, because as I've said, I'm not a fan of dumping on our own players, Jones had a full offseason to get stronger and develop and had that going for him here. Judging by what we saw from Jones, Zappe could also very well look different next year, and it will be interesting to do this again next fall to see where he's at.

 

[venecol]

1.57

Wow, that's 39.1 mph. Doesn't look that way. So much for the eye test.

Those are two touch throws ... what exactly are we doing? I think all of us realize Jones doesn't have a rocket for an arm. His thing coming out of college were his brain and his accuracy. Arm strength wasn't exactly his thing.

If we're going to go down that road, the point of the original image you posted - when I put them out there - was that Jones has as stronger arm than Zappe, which was the original argument people were making and what prompted me to pull those. Jones threw his flat-footed, Zappe had to crow-hop and fire his:

What I'm doing is simply converting to speed at mph. The second crosser was not a touch throw going down the mof.

Zappe's throw is at 45.5 mph. Mac's is at 51.1 mph.

 

[Ian]

Wow, that's 39.1 mph. Doesn't look that way. So much for the eye test.

What I'm doing is simply converting to speed at mph. The second crosser was not a touch throw going down the mof.

Zappe's throw is at 45.5 mph. Mac's is at 51.1 mph.

I get what you're doing. Obviously, each throw needs context, although I haven't started looking at any from guys on other teams, so it's hard to really know how good/bad either guy is compared to other QBs. Might be a fun thing to do this offseason, so I'll probably put together some other ones and feel free to throw out some names and I'll go through and see what throws I can dig up on them, and I can add the stopwatch so we can look at them.

 

[venecol]

I get what you're doing. Obviously, each throw needs context, although I haven't started looking at any from guys on other teams, so it's hard to really know how good/bad either guy is compared to other QBs. Might be a fun thing to do this offseason, so I'll probably put together some other ones and feel free to throw out some names and I'll go through and see what throws I can dig up on them, and I can add the stopwatch so we can look at them.

Yes that would be fun to look at. Categorizing the throws (off platform, running, pocket, etc.) to see how the speed varies.

 

[Ian]

Yes that would be fun to look at. Categorizing the throws (off platform, running, pocket, etc.) to see how the speed varies.

I'm curious about doing it for some other players for context. Should be fairly interesting, especially some of the other younger guys like Purdy, etc.

 

[venecol]

I'm curious about doing it for some other players for context. Should be fairly interesting, especially some of the other younger guys like Purdy, etc.

Do you have access to every game?

 

[Ian]

Do you have access to every game?

Just through NFL+, which has all the games.

 

[Deus Irae]

Not directed towards posters, but to the people who've come up with the so-called "advanced" stats/info and begun publishing it:




This last page is a great example of how stats geeks are ****ing up modern U.S. sports. And that's coming from a stats geek.

 

[Ian]

Not directed towards posters, but to the people who've come up with the so-called "advanced" stats/info and begun publishing it:




This last page is a great example of how stats geeks are ****ing up modern U.S. sports. And that's coming from a stats geek.

The original two gifs were serving a different purpose in an unrelated argument. The others were just some throws made (the air time was irrelevant in this discussion) to remind people that he did, in fact, make them.

 

[Deus Irae]

The original two gifs were serving a different purpose in an unrelated argument. The others were just some throws made (the air time was irrelevant in this discussion) to remind people that he did, in fact, make them.

This will come out a bit jumbled, because it should be said conversationally rather than written, but I'll try my best to make it clear:


Like I said, my comment wasn't about the posters here. Sports is giving us data oversaturation, and it's killing sports. Take this out of the context of this thread, and even football, and look at baseball for a great example of it. The data/stats geeks screwed up that sport at the MLB level so badly that the league is now forced to implement some really bad rules because they need to negate the impact of those geeks.

In the case here in the thread (but not specific to THIS thread, if you know what I mean), because we now have data on speeds the way we do, people are looking all the way into the smallest of statistical differences, and with no way to completely adjust for context, and that's not the fault of the people trying to work with the information (in this case, the posters). As was noted, a throw at "X" speed is nothing more than a number, unless you have all the surrounding context. Did the QB have to gun it to fit it in a window? Did the QB need to feather it in gently because of the nature of that window? Did the QB have to throw it harder/softer/ballooned/roped because of the WR he's targeting? And having all that surrounding context is impossible, because you'd have to be in the mind of the QB to get it all.

But, to focus on these specific postings in this specific thread, the reality is that, as long as a QB can make all the throws, having a rifle for an arm is only a benefit if that strength comes with touch and accuracy and, even then, it's a luxury rather than a necessity. It's the ability to make the throw that matters, not the speed at which a particular QB normally makes it.

 

[venecol]

But, to focus on these specific postings in this specific thread, the reality is that, as long as a QB can make all the throws, having a rifle for an arm is only a benefit if that strength comes with touch and accuracy and, even then, it's a luxury rather than a necessity. It's the ability to make the throw that matters, not the speed at which a particular QB normally makes it.

I agree with your post in general except for the last sentence. Speed matters when you're trying to get a ball zipped into a tight window or to avoid a S from getting a PD on your guy. We've seen this from guys like Allen or Herbert where they throw accurate balls 30+ yards on a rope. These throws have very little arc. Obviously to throw a ball 30+ yards w/ little arc requires speed. Of course, these throws are few and far between and accuracy and ball placement are better attributes like you say. But it helps to be able to make those type of throws when you're trying to get a long 1st down in a critical situation.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree with your post in general except for the last sentence. Speed matters when you're trying to get a ball zipped into a tight window or to avoid a S from getting a PD on your guy. We've seen this from guys like Allen or Herbert where they throw accurate balls 30+ yards on a rope. These throws have very little arc. Obviously to throw a ball 30+ yards w/ little arc requires speed. Of course, these throws are few and far between and accuracy and ball placement are better attributes like you say. But it helps to be able to make those type of throws when you're trying to get a long 1st down in a critical situation.

First, I don't know if you're misreading my post, but your disagreement indicates it, especially the second half of what you put in bold:

not the speed at which a particular QB normally makes it.

Most QBs don't make every throw at 100% power. Not only is that not needed, but it's stupid in the long run, since it puts needless stress on the shoulder. What matters from your QB is that he can make all the throws, not that he normally makes them at 50 mph rather than 52 mph.


Second, your explanation regarding speed mattering falls under an earlier part of my post:

having a rifle for an arm is only a benefit if that strength comes with touch and accuracy and, even then, it's a luxury rather than a necessity.

The idea that it's a necessity to have one of the, say, 5 strongest functional arms in the game (which is basically what you're pointing to when you're pointing to guys like Allen and Herbert), has been proven wrong so many times that I'm not going to bother doing more than noting it, and saying see Manning, Peyton for an obvious example.

Being able to make all the throws does not mean that the QB can throw a pass from one goal line to the other on a frozen rope during a monsoon. It means that he can successfully work the understood receiver route trees under reasonable conditions.

 

[venecol]

First, I don't know if you're misreading my post, but your disagreement indicates it, especially the second half of what you put in bold:





Most QBs don't make every throw at 100% power. Not only is that not needed, but it's stupid in the long run, since it puts needless stress on the shoulder. What matters from your QB is that he can make all the throws, not that he normally makes them at 50 mph rather than 52 mph.


Second, your explanation regarding speed mattering falls under an earlier part of my post:



The idea that it's a necessity to have one of the, say, 5 strongest functional arms in the game (which is basically what you're pointing to when you're pointing to guys like Allen and Herbert), has been proven wrong so many times that I'm not going to bother doing more than noting it, and saying see Manning, Peyton for an obvious example.

Being able to make all the throws does not mean that the QB can throw a pass from one goal line to the other on a frozen rope during a monsoon. It means that he can successfully work the understood receiver route trees under reasonable conditions.

Correct and that's why I said:

"Of course, these throws are few and far between and accuracy and ball placement are better attributes like you say. But it helps to be able to make those type of throws when you're trying to get a long 1st down in a critical situation."

Agree that it isn't indispensable to have a cannon, but it helps if you do (assuming you're accurate, of course) in opening up the arsenal of throws that many other QBs just can't make. Let's call it a luxury. Does "the guy" need a cannon? No, I don't believe he does.

 

[Deus Irae]

Correct and that's why I said:

"Of course, these throws are few and far between and accuracy and ball placement are better attributes like you say. But it helps to be able to make those type of throws when you're trying to get a long 1st down in a critical situation."

Agree that it isn't indispensable to have a cannon, but it helps if you do (assuming you're accurate, of course) in opening up the arsenal of throws that many other QBs just can't make. Let's call it a luxury. Does "the guy" need a cannon? No, I don't believe he does.

Now I'm confused. If you're agreeing, then why did you post

except for the last sentence

?