CBS QB rankings- Mac Jones dissed

[1960Pats]

For 12 years Matt Stafford played in Detroit and won zero playoff games, he goes to the Rams and immediately wins 4 playoff games including a Super Bowl. It's clear as day that a QB, no matter how good or great, needs a great team around him to go anywhere in the playoffs.

Of course you need top players to win and teams can win a lot of different ways. My only argument has been that it's not about the coaches as much as you and others believe it to be. It's never been that way for me and that's been exacerbated by Bill letting Brady walk.

Personally, I used to like the great defenses and running games of the past but those are long gone. I come from a time when my favorite players starting out were Jim Brown, **** Butkus and Gale Sayers. Now the owners want gambling and fantasy football games where the last team to get the ball wins 42-40. I'll, ahem, pass on that.

 

[1960Pats]

I love Dan Marino, incredible regular season quarterback, and he played on teams good enough to win a Super Bowl, but the problem was he consistently played like garbage in the postseason.

Brady played on teams with less around him but he consistently played well and converted an extraordinarily high number of game-winning moments.

Peyton Manning had more raw talent than Brady, and he had plenty of great teams around him, HOF WRs and RBs, and twice winning Super Bowls because of his defense, but he didn't win more because he like Marino saved his worst for the biggest moments.

Stafford doesn't belong in a discussion involving all time greats like Brady, Manning, and Marino. It's not shocking he never won in Detroit. I'm not classifying the 2022 Rams as an all time great team, Kupp had a historic season, they had Aaron Donald and made a mid-season trade for Von Miller, but they weren't a dominant team. They played only a smidge better than their postseason opponents.

Brady went to a team who hadn't won a playoff game in 18 years and immediately won a Super Bowl (with 3 road playoff wins). It's a clear example of what an all time great QB can do for a team.

Yeah, Brady "wasn't Brady" in 2001 but he was far more competent than Bledsoe and he converted the first of 6 game-winning Super Bowl drives. The Patriots dynasty doesn't happen without Brady and he's the only irreplaceable individual 2001-2019.

The thing that seems to separate a lot of the top QBs is how much they force the ball. They have so much confidence in their arm that they take chances they shouldn't take, especially in key situations. Drew and BrINT Favre are other examples. Luckily for us, Brady didn't do that very often in spite of all the key situations he was in for 20 years.

 

[irishfanatic]

Speak for yourself.

He was and he is correct.

 

[Wozzy]

I love Dan Marino, incredible regular season quarterback, and he played on teams good enough to win a Super Bowl, but the problem was he consistently played like garbage in the postseason.

Brady played on teams with less around him but he consistently played well and converted an extraordinarily high number of game-winning moments.

Peyton Manning had more raw talent than Brady, and he had plenty of great teams around him, HOF WRs and RBs, and twice winning Super Bowls because of his defense, but he didn't win more because he like Marino saved his worst for the biggest moments.

Stafford doesn't belong in a discussion involving all time greats like Brady, Manning, and Marino. It's not shocking he never won in Detroit. I'm not classifying the 2022 Rams as an all time great team, Kupp had a historic season, they had Aaron Donald and made a mid-season trade for Von Miller, but they weren't a dominant team. They played only a smidge better than their postseason opponents.

Brady went to a team who hadn't won a playoff game in 18 years and immediately won a Super Bowl (with 3 road playoff wins). It's a clear example of what an all time great QB can do for a team.

Yeah, Brady "wasn't Brady" in 2001 but he was far more competent than Bledsoe and he converted the first of 6 game-winning Super Bowl drives. The Patriots dynasty doesn't happen without Brady and he's the only irreplaceable individual 2001-2019.

Oh my god, I can't get into another protracted Brady *********** with you again.

Dan Marino took advantage of Shula in his old age. Don made his name using a punishing rushing attack and tough defenses, by the time Dan came around he let Marino and the offense pass pass pass... that's why they never won in the playoffs... they were finesse... soft. In 1983 when the Marino led Dolphins made the Super Bowl they ranked 6th in rushing attempts, they never ranked lower than 14th in attempts for the remainder of his career and mostly ranked in the bottom third of the league... until Jimmy Johnson took over and Marino was near forty years old.

Peyton Manning'd defenses on the Colts were soft, undersized and underfunded. All the money and drat picks went to offense. They were a pushover in the playoffs. It was the Patriot defenses that beat Peyton Manning, not Tom Brady.

Nobody would have won in Detroit, not Stafford, not Brady, not god's only chosen son... you're delusional.

Brady went to Tampa, a team that led the entire NFL in passing yards and TD's two years prior and whose D was the best run stopping unit in the league multiple years running. He wouldn't have gotten by the NFC Championship Game having thrown three interceptions if his defense didn't pull his fat from the fire. Again... you're delusional. If Brady went to the Raiders with their 31st ranked defense instead, he wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs... this isn't a Disney movie, as much as you want it to be.

2001 doesn't happen in they don't draft Richard Seymour, it doesn't happen without Adam Vinitieri... and I'd add another pretty amazing thing about the 2001 team was free agent acquisition and health. They weren't a deep team and the "value vets" BB brought in were in many respects unwanted elsewhere because they were considered too old or middling in their careers, these guys played well and stayed healthy.

A good example is Joe Andruzzi, the guy was basically unwanted in free agency, not a splashy name, he started 16 games for us at a crucial position because depth behind him was paper thin. He was 26 in 2001, had played three years already and only started 15 games. Mike Compton our starting guard on the other side was a good player for Detroit, having blocked for Barry Sanders for years, but was considered washed up when we acquired him and started him every game in 2001, he was 31. Bobby Hamilton was 30, had only started 12 games in a four year career before coming to NE but from 2000-2006 he started every game but two. Anthony Pleasant had been a very good player for a long time including on Bill's early Brown's teams, he was already 33 years old in 2001. Roman Phifer was an iron man, played for 15 years, he was 33 years old in 2001. Otis Smith was also an iron man, he was a 36 year old starting CB in 2001. They got extremely lucky, they had key pieces but also were very fortunate none of those old starters went down. Brady threw one TD and one interception in the entire 2001 postseason, it is and always will be a team sport.

QB fanboys like you attribute team success to one magical player, but also ignore the hundreds of other examples of great QB's on bad teams. Detain Watson was the best QB in the league in 2020 and won 4 games. Jared Goff took over Matt Stafford's team and lost one more game then Matt did the season prior, Stafford took over Goff's team, won four playoff games and a Super Bowl... his first playoff win ever in a thirteen year career. QB's are important... not nearly as much as you think in relation to team.

 

[Wozzy]

Of course you need top players to win and teams can win a lot of different ways. My only argument has been that it's not about the coaches as much as you and others believe it to be. It's never been that way for me and that's been exacerbated by Bill letting Brady walk.

Personally, I used to like the great defenses and running games of the past but those are long gone. I come from a time when my favorite players starting out were Jim Brown, **** Butkus and Gale Sayers. Now the owners want gambling and fantasy football games where the last team to get the ball wins 42-40. I'll, ahem, pass on that.

I don't know how you can watch the Jags and Giants improve dramatically from 3/4 wins to 9 wins and a playoff berth and say coaching doesn't matter much with a straight face.

Or watched New England or Tampa shrink to 8 win teams with only a change in coaching... who was Tampa's QB btw?

Tom Brady played on the best teams for two decades, had a good/great defense, good/great O-Line, good/great weapons, good/great special teams... you never had to witness Tom Brady on a dumpster fire like the Jags or Giants were in 2021... never. The closest we came to seeing it was 2002.

 

[1960Pats]

I don't know how you can watch the Jags and Giants improve dramatically from 3/4 wins to 9 wins and a playoff berth and say coaching doesn't matter much with a straight face.

Or watched New England or Tampa shrink to 8 win teams with only a change in coaching... who was Tampa's QB btw?

Tom Brady played on the best teams for two decades, had a good/great defense, good/great O-Line, good/great weapons, good/great special teams... you never had to witness Tom Brady on a dumpster fire like the Jags or Giants were in 2021... never. The closest we came to seeing it was 2002.

It's not that I don't think that coaches matter. They do. It's just that I think they matter less than the talent assembled.

There are other factors that make the difference between winning and losing. The most impactful beside talent are injuries, which was the case with Brady in TB for the playoff loss in his 2nd year. Btw, that was a direct result from a poor coaching decision more than anything. The players were doing great under the circumstances until then.

Injuries were also a huge factor in Brady's last season here, especially on offense. And the shrinkage you're talking about came here right after Brady left, not when Patricia and Judge came aboard a year later. It only got worse when those clowns arrived.

As for the teams that go from 3 wins to 9 wins the next season, well that comes under what I call a Parcells. That's where you take over a crap team and use the top picks to improve the team enough to take credit for improvement but not enough to win. Tuna Sh!t did that everywhere he went.

The Jags and Giants improvement specifically could have a lot to do with both of them being the beneficiary of playing a much softer schedule or it could be natural player improvement, especially at QB.

 

[Wozzy]

It's not that I don't think that coaches matter. They do. It's just that I think they matter less than the talent assembled.

You can't separate the two, most coaches have a say in personnel, a standout trait of most great coaches is the ability to take a rookie and mold them into a pro and develop them. The talent doesn't just appear out of nowhere, nor does it always arrive turn-key or pro ready.

There are other factors that make the difference between winning and losing. The most impactful beside talent are injuries, which was the case with Brady in TB for the playoff loss in his 2nd year. Btw, that was a direct result from a poor coaching decision more than anything. The players were doing great under the circumstances until then.

The final loss to the Rams in 2021, the final play where the defense played press coverage was clearly Todd Bowles fault... coaching error. They still got to the division finals and won 13 games to get there. The decision by Bowles to let Tom and his offensive coordinator abandon the run completely was a much worse decision, the decision by Tom to push Arians out the door was a worse decision. Pain in the butt as Arians might have been, his offensive philosophy and scheme was wildly successful before Tom got there, Tom simply provided some efficiency to the operation. An unbalanced offense last season doomed them.

Injuries were also a huge factor in Brady's last season here, especially on offense. And the shrinkage you're talking about came here right after Brady left, not when Patricia and Judge came aboard a year later. It only got worse when those clowns arrived.

The 2020 team was the least talented Patriot team in BB's tenure since 2002, it was a rebuilding year. Last season the Patriots weren't lacking talent beyond coaching talent, they were just as talented if not more than the 2021 team a year prior.

As for the teams that go from 3 wins to 9 wins the next season, well that comes under what I call a Parcells. That's where you take over a crap team and use the top picks to improve the team enough to take credit for improvement but not enough to win. Tuna Sh!t did that everywhere he went.

The Jags and Giants improvement specifically could have a lot to do with both of them being the beneficiary of playing a much softer schedule or it could be natural player improvement, especially at QB.

Nonsense... it's not coincidence history has shown wherever great coaches go wins follow. Coaches find great players, develop players, put them in situations to reap all the glory. Andy Reid made offense wherever he went, we played him in a Super Bowl way back in 2004... he drafted and developed Mahomes. Joe Gibbs won three different Super Bowls with three different castoff journeyman QB's... then he went to Nascar and won more championships. It takes a team, coaches are part of that team, in most cases a massive part because they assembled that team.

 

[Patriot Missile]

I wouldn’t say Brady “struggled” in his second season as a starter. He obviously wasn’t a finished product but I’d argue he was better in 02 than he was in the Super Bowl year. His play wasn’t why they missed the playoffs, a terrible run defense was.

Oh yeah, who could forget that trio of Priest Holmes, LT and Ricky Williams destroying this defense 3 weeks in a row? Never have I seen an addition like Ted Washington the following year completely wipe out a weakness like he did. Exception, Randy Moss and Wes Welker on the offensive side.

 

[crawhammer]

Dan Marino took advantage of Shula in his old age. Don made his name using a punishing rushing attack and tough defenses, by the time Dan came around he let Marino and the offense pass pass pass... that's why they never won in the playoffs... they were finesse... soft. In 1983 when the Marino led Dolphins made the Super Bowl they ranked 6th in rushing attempts, they never ranked lower than 14th in attempts for the remainder of his career and mostly ranked in the bottom third of the league... until Jimmy Johnson took over and Marino was near forty years old.

Marino sucked in the postseason. Look it up.

Peyton Manning'd defenses on the Colts were soft, undersized and underfunded. All the money and drat picks went to offense. They were a pushover in the playoffs. It was the Patriot defenses that beat Peyton Manning, not Tom Brady.

Wrong! Firstly, you ignored the 2015 Broncos defense who ranked #1 in the NFL. They humiliated the NFL MVP in the Super Bowl. Peyton was actually worse than Cam in that game but it didn't matter because the Broncos defense was so dominant.

Secondly, in the 2006 postseason, Peyton had 3 TDs, 7 INTs, and 70.5 passer rating. The Colts got all pro Bob Sanders back for the postseason and they dominated with 13 takeaways in 4 games. They closed out the SB with a game-sealing pick six.

Nobody would have won in Detroit, not Stafford, not Brady, not god's only chosen son... you're delusional.

Same thing was said when Brady went to the franchise with the worst winning percentage in all of professional sports.

Brady went to Tampa, a team that led the entire NFL in passing yards and TD's two years prior and whose D was the best run stopping unit in the league multiple years running. He wouldn't have gotten by the NFC Championship Game having thrown three interceptions if his defense didn't pull his fat from the fire. Again... you're delusional. If Brady went to the Raiders with their 31st ranked defense instead, he wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs... this isn't a Disney movie, as much as you want it to be.

Tampa Bay hadn't won a playoff game in 18 years. Their offense led the NFL in turnovers in 2019. So just stop already. It's not a coincidence that Tampa Bay won the Super Bowl just as soon as Brady arrived. Nor was it a coincidence that the Patriots won the Super Bowl just as soon as Brady arrived.

2001 doesn't happen in they don't draft Richard Seymour, it doesn't happen without Adam Vinitieri... and I'd add another pretty amazing thing about the 2001 team was free agent acquisition and health. They weren't a deep team and the "value vets" BB brought in were in many respects unwanted elsewhere because they were considered too old or middling in their careers, these guys played well and stayed healthy.

That 2001 Patriots defense was built on Parcells draft picks. Brady won multiple Super Bowls without Seymour and Vinatieri. In fact Brady was the only Patriots player rostered for all 6 of the SB championships.

A good example is Joe Andruzzi, the guy was basically unwanted in free agency, not a splashy name, he started 16 games for us at a crucial position because depth behind him was paper thin. He was 26 in 2001, had played three years already and only started 15 games. Mike Compton our starting guard on the other side was a good player for Detroit, having blocked for Barry Sanders for years, but was considered washed up when we acquired him and started him every game in 2001, he was 31. Bobby Hamilton was 30, had only started 12 games in a four year career before coming to NE but from 2000-2006 he started every game but two. Anthony Pleasant had been a very good player for a long time including on Bill's early Brown's teams, he was already 33 years old in 2001. Roman Phifer was an iron man, played for 15 years, he was 33 years old in 2001. Otis Smith was also an iron man, he was a 36 year old starting CB in 2001. They got extremely lucky, they had key pieces but also were very fortunate none of those old starters went down. Brady threw one TD and one interception in the entire 2001 postseason, it is and always will be a team sport.

Stack it all up. All the unheralded offensive linemen and defenders, some nifty stories there. The team was 5-13 with Brady on the bench. Then 14-3 with a Super Bowl championship on a game-winning drive once he became the starter. You do the math.

QB fanboys like you attribute team success to one magical player, but also ignore the hundreds of other examples of great QB's on bad teams. Detain Watson was the best QB in the league in 2020 and won 4 games. Jared Goff took over Matt Stafford's team and lost one more game then Matt did the season prior, Stafford took over Goff's team, won four playoff games and a Super Bowl... his first playoff win ever in a thirteen year career. QB's are important... not nearly as much as you think in relation to team.

Sorry bub, some quarterbacks bring something unique to the game. Brady's the most obvious example because he did it so often in the regular season and postseason. Bradshaw had a knack for outplaying the QB rivals of his era. Montana was nearly flawless in Super Bowls. Favre, Manning, and Rodgers are extraordinarily talented quarterbacks who dominated regular seasons but couldn't carry it over to the postseason. Mahomes is the closest QB to Brady in the NFL currently. 2022 was a Brady like season for Mahomes... he had all world Kelce but otherwise not an all-star supporting cast... he'll be asked to be heroic in 2023 too, just take a look at their WR depth chart... woof.

Even just with the QBs mentioned above (Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, Favre, Manning, Rodgers, and Mahomes), going back to Bradshaw's first SB championship (1974, so 49 years), those QBs collectively account for...

1974-2022 (49 years)

21 Super Bowl Rings (43%)
14 Super Bowl MVPs (29%)
20 NFL MVPs (41%)

That's just from those 7 QBs.

Altogether QBs account for these MVP awards over the past 49 seasons:

27 Super Bowl MVPs (55%)
38 NFL MVPs (76%)

But you do you and keep talking about the Andruzzi's and Compton's of the league.

 

[All3Phases]

Marino sucked in the postseason. Look it up.


Wrong! Firstly, you ignored the 2015 Broncos defense who ranked #1 in the NFL. They humiliated the NFL MVP in the Super Bowl. Peyton was actually worse than Cam in that game but it didn't matter because the Broncos defense was so dominant.

Secondly, in the 2006 postseason, Peyton had 3 TDs, 7 INTs, and 70.5 passer rating. The Colts got all pro Bob Sanders back for the postseason and they dominated with 13 takeaways in 4 games. They closed out the SB with a game-sealing pick six.


Same thing was said when Brady went to the franchise with the worst winning percentage in all of professional sports.


Tampa Bay hadn't won a playoff game in 18 years. Their offense led the NFL in turnovers in 2019. So just stop already. It's not a coincidence that Tampa Bay won the Super Bowl just as soon as Brady arrived. Nor was it a coincidence that the Patriots won the Super Bowl just as soon as Brady arrived.


That 2001 Patriots defense was built on Parcells draft picks. Brady won multiple Super Bowls without Seymour and Vinatieri. In fact Brady was the only Patriots player rostered for all 6 of the SB championships.


Stack it all up. All the unheralded offensive linemen and defenders, some nifty stories there. The team was 5-13 with Brady on the bench. Then 14-3 with a Super Bowl championship on a game-winning drive once he became the starter. You do the math.


Sorry bub, some quarterbacks bring something unique to the game. Brady's the most obvious example because he did it so often in the regular season and postseason. Bradshaw had a knack for outplaying the QB rivals of his era. Montana was nearly flawless in Super Bowls. Favre, Manning, and Rodgers are extraordinarily talented quarterbacks who dominated regular seasons but couldn't carry it over to the postseason. Mahomes is the closest QB to Brady in the NFL currently. 2022 was a Brady like season for Mahomes... he had all world Kelce but otherwise not an all-star supporting cast... he'll be asked to be heroic in 2023 too, just take a look at their WR depth chart... woof.

Even just with the QBs mentioned above (Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, Favre, Manning, Rodgers, and Mahomes), going back to Bradshaw's first SB championship (1974, so 49 years), those QBs collectively account for...

1974-2022 (49 years)

21 Super Bowl Rings (43%)
14 Super Bowl MVPs (29%)
20 NFL MVPs (41%)

That's just from those 7 QBs.

Altogether QBs account for these MVP awards over the past 49 seasons:

27 Super Bowl MVPs (55%)
38 NFL MVPs (76%)

But you do you and keep talking about the Andruzzi's and Compton's of the league.

Facts>>>>>>

 

[Chevy]

Oh my god, I can't get into another protracted Brady *********** with you again.

Dan Marino took advantage of Shula in his old age. Don made his name using a punishing rushing attack and tough defenses, by the time Dan came around he let Marino and the offense pass pass pass... that's why they never won in the playoffs... they were finesse... soft. In 1983 when the Marino led Dolphins made the Super Bowl they ranked 6th in rushing attempts, they never ranked lower than 14th in attempts for the remainder of his career and mostly ranked in the bottom third of the league... until Jimmy Johnson took over and Marino was near forty years old.

Peyton Manning'd defenses on the Colts were soft, undersized and underfunded. All the money and drat picks went to offense. They were a pushover in the playoffs. It was the Patriot defenses that beat Peyton Manning, not Tom Brady.

Nobody would have won in Detroit, not Stafford, not Brady, not god's only chosen son... you're delusional.

Brady went to Tampa, a team that led the entire NFL in passing yards and TD's two years prior and whose D was the best run stopping unit in the league multiple years running. He wouldn't have gotten by the NFC Championship Game having thrown three interceptions if his defense didn't pull his fat from the fire. Again... you're delusional. If Brady went to the Raiders with their 31st ranked defense instead, he wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs... this isn't a Disney movie, as much as you want it to be.

2001 doesn't happen in they don't draft Richard Seymour, it doesn't happen without Adam Vinitieri... and I'd add another pretty amazing thing about the 2001 team was free agent acquisition and health. They weren't a deep team and the "value vets" BB brought in were in many respects unwanted elsewhere because they were considered too old or middling in their careers, these guys played well and stayed healthy.

A good example is Joe Andruzzi, the guy was basically unwanted in free agency, not a splashy name, he started 16 games for us at a crucial position because depth behind him was paper thin. He was 26 in 2001, had played three years already and only started 15 games. Mike Compton our starting guard on the other side was a good player for Detroit, having blocked for Barry Sanders for years, but was considered washed up when we acquired him and started him every game in 2001, he was 31. Bobby Hamilton was 30, had only started 12 games in a four year career before coming to NE but from 2000-2006 he started every game but two. Anthony Pleasant had been a very good player for a long time including on Bill's early Brown's teams, he was already 33 years old in 2001. Roman Phifer was an iron man, played for 15 years, he was 33 years old in 2001. Otis Smith was also an iron man, he was a 36 year old starting CB in 2001. They got extremely lucky, they had key pieces but also were very fortunate none of those old starters went down. Brady threw one TD and one interception in the entire 2001 postseason, it is and always will be a team sport.

QB fanboys like you attribute team success to one magical player, but also ignore the hundreds of other examples of great QB's on bad teams. Detain Watson was the best QB in the league in 2020 and won 4 games. Jared Goff took over Matt Stafford's team and lost one more game then Matt did the season prior, Stafford took over Goff's team, won four playoff games and a Super Bowl... his first playoff win ever in a thirteen year career. QB's are important... not nearly as much as you think in relation to team.

BB went Money Ball in 2000/2001. Add to that the level of discipline he instilled, and the results were clear.

 

[Wozzy]

Marino sucked in the postseason. Look it up.

Shula won rings with a power run game, under Marino he let them do what Dan wanted and it was pass, pass pass... that's why he sucked in the playoffs. It's a team game, you'll seemingly never understand this because you believe in superheroes.

Wrong! Firstly, you ignored the 2015 Broncos defense who ranked #1 in the NFL. They humiliated the NFL MVP in the Super Bowl. Peyton was actually worse than Cam in that game but it didn't matter because the Broncos defense was so dominant.

The Bronco's defense also humiliated Tom Brady sacking him five times... doesn't really bolster your "QB's are magical unicorns" theory.

I said the Colt's defenses, they were soft against the run and powerful offensive lines. Also the Patriot'd defense took advantage of the Colt's line... again, it's a team game.

Same thing was said when Brady went to the franchise with the worst winning percentage in all of professional sports.

A franchise that's younger than I am and who had more rings than 13 other teams in the league before Tom arrived. Career stats don't matter. They were a turnkey team that needed a QB.

Tampa Bay hadn't won a playoff game in 18 years. Their offense led the NFL in turnovers in 2019. So just stop already. It's not a coincidence that Tampa Bay won the Super Bowl just as soon as Brady arrived. Nor was it a coincidence that the Patriots won the Super Bowl just as soon as Brady arrived.

They didn't win a ring in 2021 or 2022 when they only won 8 games with Tom at QB and after he got the head coach canned... how come your magic QB theory only matters when it results in a ring... but it's not relevant when they lose?

That 2001 Patriots defense was built on Parcells draft picks. Brady won multiple Super Bowls without Seymour and Vinatieri. In fact Brady was the only Patriots player rostered for all 6 of the SB championships.

Seymour is a hall of fame DT who was drafted by BB. Parcells had a 21-27 record and won six games the season before BB joined the staff as his DC, instantly they went to a Super Bowl after he joined the team. I don't think you were born yet, you're just going off what some older guys told you.

Stack it all up. All the unheralded offensive linemen and defenders, some nifty stories there. The team was 5-13 with Brady on the bench. Then 14-3 with a Super Bowl championship on a game-winning drive once he became the starter. You do the math.

It's not math, Richard Seymour didn't start the first quarter of 2001 as a rookie either. He finally took over as a starter in week eight and the entire team got better. Patriots teams for the last two decades have used the first four weeks as extensions of the preseason and have improved... that was with Brady entrenched as the starter. Tom was better than Drew, more efficient and reliable, beyond that he threw one TD in the entire postseason. It wasn't magic... it was simply good enough.

Sorry bub, some quarterbacks bring something unique to the game. Brady's the most obvious example because he did it so often in the regular season and postseason. Bradshaw had a knack for outplaying the QB rivals of his era. Montana was nearly flawless in Super Bowls. Favre, Manning, and Rodgers are extraordinarily talented quarterbacks who dominated regular seasons but couldn't carry it over to the postseason. Mahomes is the closest QB to Brady in the NFL currently. 2022 was a Brady like season for Mahomes... he had all world Kelce but otherwise not an all-star supporting cast... he'll be asked to be heroic in 2023 too, just take a look at their WR depth chart... woof.

Even just with the QBs mentioned above (Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, Favre, Manning, Rodgers, and Mahomes), going back to Bradshaw's first SB championship (1974, so 49 years), those QBs collectively account for...

1974-2022 (49 years)

21 Super Bowl Rings (43%)
14 Super Bowl MVPs (29%)
20 NFL MVPs (41%)

That's just from those 7 QBs.

Altogether QBs account for these MVP awards over the past 49 seasons:

27 Super Bowl MVPs (55%)
38 NFL MVPs (76%)

But you do you and keep talking about the Andruzzi's and Compton's of the league.

Again... this has devolved into another magical unicorn QB ***********... and yeah, offensive lineman and other positions you have no interest in matter. This isn't fantasy football.

Every time I read your blather, it is clear you never played organized football at even the pee wee level... I question whether you've played a team sport at all.

 

[crawhammer]

Shula won rings with a power run game, under Marino he let them do what Dan wanted and it was pass, pass pass... that's why he sucked in the playoffs. It's a team game, you'll seemingly never understand this because you believe in superheroes.

Marino was a superhero in the regular season, even against top tier opponents. Marino led a top 10 offense 11 seasons of his career. Their "pass, pass, pass offense" worked, until it didn't in the postseason. Marino's play declined dramatically in the postseason. It wasn't a case of Marino playing well and they lost because of no power run game or bad defense. He underachieved. Period. Had Marino excelled in even one postseason, and won a Super Bowl, he's be a top 5 all time QB. Without a ring, you could argue he's not even in the top 10.

The Bronco's defense also humiliated Tom Brady sacking him five times... doesn't really bolster your "QB's are magical unicorns" theory.

Did you watch the end of that game? Brady was pretty magical. The missed PAT by Gost earlier in the game bit them in the ass.

A franchise that's younger than I am and who had more rings than 13 other teams in the league before Tom arrived. Career stats don't matter. They were a turnkey team that needed a QB.

What we know for a fact is Tampa Bay got Brady and they won the Super Bowl in his first season. Only QB in the history of the NFL to win a Super Bowl in his first season as a starter for two franchises.

They didn't win a ring in 2021 or 2022 when they only won 8 games with Tom at QB and after he got the head coach canned... how come your magic QB theory only matters when it results in a ring... but it's not relevant when they lose?

You sound like the forum's notorious Chiefs fan who argues Brady isn't the GOAT because he didn't win 21 Super Bowls. Is that your standard for Brady? Any season when he didn't win the SB was his failure?

Right the Bucs won 8 games last season, totally pathetic, and 5 of those wins Brady pulled out of his ass in the 4th quarter. The TEAM had too many weaknesses for Brady to overcome. And the head coach is a ****ing moron like no other. There's limit to even what Brady can accomplish with a clown show. Plus he was 45 for Christ's sake.

Seymour is a hall of fame DT who was drafted by BB. Parcells had a 21-27 record and won six games the season before BB joined the staff as his DC, instantly they went to a Super Bowl after he joined the team. I don't think you were born yet, you're just going off what some older guys told you.

Seymour is one player. I can name several key defenders that were drafted during the Parcells years. You don't want to hear it but Belichick has won nada without Brady. In fact Belichick has a poor head coaching record without Brady. Parcells won Super Bowls with Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler.

Patriots teams for the last two decades have used the first four weeks as extensions of the preseason and have improved... that was with Brady entrenched as the starter.

Brady was 41-16 in September with the Patriots. He never had a losing September record. There's a lot of IBWT ******** that gets floated around... this "extension of the preseason" being one of them.

By the way, Mac Jones is 2-4 in September. Like I said, Brady in 19 seasons with the Patriots never had a losing record in September. Mac already has 2 of them. Unfortunately he's worse in December and January. Nice draft pick.

Every time I read your blather, it is clear you never played organized football at even the pee wee level... I question whether you've played a team sport at all.

Played soccer and basketball until high school. Switched to Football in high school. Played organized baseball from the time I could walk until my early 20's. Won a state title my senior year in high school. Played in a men's softball league until COVID halted it and I haven't gone back to it because I'm too wrapped up in my son's sports (soccer, baseball, and flag football... I'll let him put a helmet on in high school).

 

[Wozzy]

Marino was a superhero in the regular season, even against top tier opponents. Marino led a top 10 offense 11 seasons of his career. Their "pass, pass, pass offense" worked, until it didn't in the postseason. Marino's play declined dramatically in the postseason. It wasn't a case of Marino playing well and they lost because of no power run game or bad defense. He underachieved. Period. Had Marino excelled in even one postseason, and won a Super Bowl, he's be a top 5 all time QB. Without a ring, you could argue he's not even in the top 10.

Playoff football is not regular season football, as a big Lamar Jackson fan you should already know this and the modern game is a lot more neutered than the current game. Pass, pass, pass doesn't work... didn't work for the Bucs in 2020 so they changed, didn't work for the Buc's last season and they didn't change so they got hammered in the playoffs, didn't work for Marino's Dolphins. It's a team game.

Did you watch the end of that game? Brady was pretty magical. The missed PAT by Gost earlier in the game bit them in the ass.

Here's how it ended, the last five drives: Punt, punt, turnover on downs, turnover on downs, TD, missed two point conversion.... magical.

Brady got sacked four times, threw two interceptions and had a 56.4 QB Rating... only a QB ball washer could wax poetic about that. Laughable.

What we know for a fact is Tampa Bay got Brady and they won the Super Bowl in his first season. Only QB in the history of the NFL to win a Super Bowl in his first season as a starter for two franchises.

Matt Stafford/Rams, Nick Foles/Eagles, Trent Dilfer/Ravens... a whole bunch of magical unicorn QB's who won a ring in year one on a new team.

You sound like the forum's notorious Chiefs fan who argues Brady isn't the GOAT because he didn't win 21 Super Bowls. Is that your standard for Brady? Any season when he didn't win the SB was his failure?

You give him the entirety of the credit, the only reason we're having this conversation almost daily is because of your silly beliefs.

I'm the guy who argues "it's a team sport" religiously... because it is. If Deshaun Watson can be the best QB in the league in 2020 or Brees in 2016 and their teams win single digit games... then QB's are vastly overrated by QB fanboys on sites like this one.

Right the Bucs won 8 games last season, totally pathetic, and 5 of those wins Brady pulled out of his ass in the 4th quarter. The TEAM had too many weaknesses for Brady to overcome. And the head coach is a ****ing moron like no other. There's limit to even what Brady can accomplish with a clown show. Plus he was 45 for Christ's sake.

Funny how it all fell apart when Arians was booted out the door, the same way the Patriots rebuild fell apart when BB was foolish enough to believe he didn't need an offensive coach... both resulted in 8 wins.

That's ^ objectivity... it will seem foreign to you.

Seymour is one player. I can name several key defenders that were drafted during the Parcells years. You don't want to hear it but Belichick has won nada without Brady. In fact Belichick has a poor head coaching record without Brady. Parcells won Super Bowls with Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler.

Parcells has a poor head coaching record without BB. Brady has a poor record without BB/Arians. The majority of players on the Patriots in 2001 were brought in by BB and company, players like Milloy and Bruschi became Patriots while BB was the defensive coach... no doubt he had a hand in their acquisition. The way you bend over backwards to tell us the winningest coach in NFL history, (supposedly) the coach of your team, is equal parts pathetic and dumb.

Brady was 41-16 in September with the Patriots. He never had a losing September record. There's a lot of IBWT ******** that gets floated around... this "extension of the preseason" being one of them.

47-19 actually... when the team you're on only loses a few games each season it works out that way. And nobody said they lost all their games in September, the team generally struggled the first month and improved. That's common knowledge among Patriots fans... and coaches.

By the way, Mac Jones is 2-4 in September. Like I said, Brady in 19 seasons with the Patriots never had a losing record in September. Mac already has 2 of them. Unfortunately he's worse in December and January. Nice draft pick.

What was Brady's record in his rookie season?

Oh yeah, he didn't play.

 

[crawhammer]

Playoff football is not regular season football, as a big Lamar Jackson fan you should already know this and the modern game is a lot more neutered than the current game. Pass, pass, pass doesn't work... didn't work for the Bucs in 2020 so they changed, didn't work for the Buc's last season and they didn't change so they got hammered in the playoffs, didn't work for Marino's Dolphins. It's a team game.

Marino had 26 turnovers in 18 postseason games. He was really awful in the losses: 10 games, 15 TDs & 19 INTs. Massive dud in the '85 AFCCG against the Patriots at home... only completed 41% of his passes. A win there would have setup an epic rematch with the Bears and would have been back-to-back SB appearances for Marino. Instead he lost and never sniffed another SB.

Here's how it ended, the last five drives: Punt, punt, turnover on downs, turnover on downs, TD, missed two point conversion.... magical.

Brady got sacked four times, threw two interceptions and had a 56.4 QB Rating... only a QB ball washer could wax poetic about that. Laughable.

I said the end of the game. You're giving me the last several drives like I didn't watch the game. I'm specifically talking about the 40-yard completion to Gronk on 4th-10 with 1:34 left in the game and the 4th down TD pass to Gronk with 0:12 left. Not impressed with either of those? You're turning into @SHOWTIME15.

Matt Stafford/Rams, Nick Foles/Eagles, Trent Dilfer/Ravens... a whole bunch of magical unicorn QB's who won a ring in year one on a new team.

Good for them, honestly, but the only one who really counts is Stafford. The other two weren't brought in as starters. Dilfer also won with an all time top 5 defense. Foles was handed his ring on a platter by Belichick.

But apparently you missed the point... Brady is the only QB in the history of the NFL to win a Super Bowl in his first season as a starter for two franchises.

I'm the guy who argues "it's a team sport" religiously... because it is. If Deshaun Watson can be the best QB in the league in 2020 or Brees in 2016 and their teams win single digit games... then QB's are vastly overrated by QB fanboys on sites like this one.

Because of two examples in the history of the league? Besides, Rodgers was the best QB in 2020, without question. Allen and Mahomes also had better seasons than Watson in 2020. And several QBs had a better season than Brees in 2016... Brady (should have won MVP), Ryan (won MVP), and Rodgers to name a few obvious ones.

Funny how it all fell apart when Arians was booted out the door, the same way the Patriots rebuild fell apart when BB was foolish enough to believe he didn't need an offensive coach... both resulted in 8 wins.

It fell apart in the 2021 division round when Bowles had his defense not covering Cooper Kupp for two plays in a row in the final minute of the friggin game. 2022 was a calamity of misfortune and historically bad coaching for the Bucs. The Patriots stopped winning after Brady left.

Brady has a poor record without BB/Arians.

Talk about pathetic and dumb. This is right out of the insanity message board playbook of @SHOWTIME15. For Christ's sake, think about what you just said.

47-19 actually... when the team you're on only loses a few games each season it works out that way. And nobody said they lost all their games in September, the team generally struggled the first month and improved. That's common knowledge among Patriots fans... and coaches.

You're losing focus... that is Brady's career September record. I said with the Patriots... so 41-16. He never had a losing September record in New England despite BB's brilliance of extending training camp to October 1. Don't you realize how ridiculous it is to praise an NFL head coach for treating a quarter of the season as practice?

What was Brady's record in his rookie season?

Entirely irrelevant.

 

[Joker]

 

[Wozzy]

Marino had 26 turnovers in 18 postseason games. He was really awful in the losses: 10 games, 15 TDs & 19 INTs. Massive dud in the '85 AFCCG against the Patriots at home... only completed 41% of his passes. A win there would have setup an epic rematch with the Bears and would have been back-to-back SB appearances for Marino. Instead he lost and never sniffed another SB.

Tony Eason threw 12 passes in the 85' AFCCG, Dan Marino threw 48... and that was when 48 passes was a lot.

The Patriots ran the ball 59 times, the Phins ran it 13 times... thanks for proving my point for me.

When you pass too much by design, your team is unbalanced and you'll usually play poorly. Ask Tom Brady, last season in the playoffs Joe Burrow led the entire postseason with 109 passes in three games, Mahomes was second with 100 passes in three games... Tom Brady played one game and passed it 66 times... not surprisingly he lost. He wanted Arians gone so he could do what he wanted, he got what he deserved at that point. When he was a Patriot and with the Buc's in 2020 he had a power rushing attack to support him.

I said the end of the game. You're giving me the last several drives like I didn't watch the game. I'm specifically talking about the 40-yard completion to Gronk on 4th-10 with 1:34 left in the game and the 4th down TD pass to Gronk with 0:12 left. Not impressed with either of those? You're turning into @SHOWTIME15.

I don't know the poster you're referring too, but I suspect you're comparing me to him for some effect or to garner support.

And no, there are no moral victories in losses. The Broncos defense made Tom Brady look human and your silly QB unicorn theory look foolish.

Teams win rings, not individual players. Tom Brady doesn't need blocking, until he does. Otherwise known as the old Patriot QB ball washing maxim; "Tom Brady is responsible for everything, unless they lose... then it's everyone else's fault."

Good for them, honestly, but the only one who really counts is Stafford. The other two weren't brought in as starters. Dilfer also won with an all time top 5 defense. Foles was handed his ring on a platter by Belichick.

That's why your premise is silly. It accepts or dismisses whenever it's convenient... like Joe Flacco wasn't a franchise caliber QB, but magically for one season he played at that level, then miraculously was pushed down with the average joes once again... even though that season wasn't his best statistical season by any measure.

And yeah... Foles was "handed a ring," Belichick was responsible for Foles winning all three of his playoff games. The stupidity of this statement is bolstered by the fact that Carson Wentz was the NFL MVP before he got hurt and Foles took over, if he never got hurt Wentz would have won a Super Bowl MVP as well and you'd have to twist yourselves into pretzels explaining how an average QB like Wentz won it all. Both Wentz and Foles are unemployed right now btw, any team in the league can have one of these franchise caliber QB's if they want them.

But apparently you missed the point... Brady is the only QB in the history of the NFL to win a Super Bowl in his first season as a starter for two franchises.

Well he didn't start as a rookie like Mac or Josh Allen did, so there's that. Beyond that he joined exceptional teams and added to them, gave them exactly what they needed from that position... he became part of the team. You can't provide one example of an average team winning a Super Bowl, so this conversation is predictably droll.

Because of two examples in the history of the league? Besides, Rodgers was the best QB in 2020, without question. Allen and Mahomes also had better seasons than Watson in 2020. And several QBs had a better season than Brees in 2016... Brady (should have won MVP), Ryan (won MVP), and Rodgers to name a few obvious ones.

Two examples?

Drew Brees led the entire NFL in passing three years in a row, 2014, 2015, 2016, he was arguably the best QB in the NFL.

He won 7 games, 7 games, 7 games.... why did the best QB in the league only win 7 games for three years in a row?

Oh yeah, because his defenses were ranked 32nd, 31st and 32nd in points allowed.

Your magical QB theory is sht.

It fell apart in the 2021 division round when Bowles had his defense not covering Cooper Kupp for two plays in a row in the final minute of the friggin game. 2022 was a calamity of misfortune and historically bad coaching for the Bucs. The Patriots stopped winning after Brady left.

The Buc's shouldn't have been playing man coverage, they should have been in prevent.

The Patriots lost after they flipped their entire roster and started a rebuild. One season removed from 2020 they went to the playoffs with a rookie QB.

If BB hadn't made the boneheaded decision to hire Patricia to run the offense, or if McDaniels stayed or Obie arrived a season earlier... they would have made the playoffs again in 2022. Then you'd be telling us they couldn't win a ring without Tom, rather than simply making the playoffs two years in a row.

Talk about pathetic and dumb. This is right out of the insanity message board playbook of @SHOWTIME15. For Christ's sake, think about what you just said.

Again, I don't know this person, and you're trying to rally support around other posters hatred of him. It's a team game, if Brady chose the Raiders over the Bucs in 2020 he'd never see another ring.

You're losing focus... that is Brady's career September record. I said with the Patriots... so 41-16. He never had a losing September record in New England despite BB's brilliance of extending training camp to October 1. Don't you realize how ridiculous it is to praise an NFL head coach for treating a quarter of the season as practice?

When you win as much as the Patriots did you lose free agents for big dollars, you have a hard time retaining rookies once their first contracts end, you have a hard time retaining coaches who other teams insist some of that genius must have rubbed off on them... so no, treating the first month as an extension of preseason is not ridiculous, it's the result of attrition due to winning.

Entirely irrelevant.

Tom Brady, Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rogers... all these guys sat and watched their rookie seasons. Otherwise we'd have seen typical growing pains we see from rookies all the time. Tom was a doughy out of shape 211 pound rookie the same way Mac was, I suspect he would have started strong and lost gas 3/4's of the way through just like Mac did... this isn't college ball. But you believe in fairy tales...

 

[BillyD90123]

2023 NFL QB Power Rankings: Lamar Jackson, Aaron Rodgers both crack top 10 in first rundown of all 32 starters

Assessing every team's starting QB for 2023, including three rookies

www.cbssports.com

MJ is 29. Even I would not rank him that liw.
I know…who cares its CBS but probably does reflect national perception of Jones.

I don't look at it as the national perception of Jones. I see it as less of the home crowd man crush.

 

[All3Phases]

Seymour is a hall of fame DT who was drafted by BB. Parcells had a 21-27 record and won six games the season before BB joined the staff as his DC, instantly they went to a Super Bowl after he joined the team. I don't think you were born yet, you're just going off what some older guys told you.

BB is a magical unicorn? Sorry couldn’t resist

 

[Tunescribe]

I tried putting that through Google Translate. Didn't work.