Aren't Catholics Christians, too?

[Tunescribe]

32B4's right.
I've never heard him criticize any other religion. He's only saying what he believes. All religions by their nature demand that any adherent to that religion believe that their religion is the only possible truth. How else can it be a serious religion?

That's a pretty serious indictment of all religion, in a nutshell. He doesn't actively criticize other religions because he assumes they're paths to hell and won't deny it. What's genuinely frightening, and dangerous, about 3 to be 4's specific brand of fundamentalist religionism is the dehumanizing factor of believing that all souls are damned to hell by God unless they adopt Jesus as their personal deity. The radical belief aspect of any fundamentalist religion, which has nothing to do with genuine spirituality, is responsible for much of the world's suffering down through the ages. It will continue to be until religionists like 3 to be 4 discover spirituality through direct communion with God.

 

[3 to be 4]

That's a pretty serious indictment of all religion, in a nutshell. He doesn't actively criticize other religions because he assumes they're paths to hell and won't deny it. What's genuinely frightening, and dangerous, about 3 to be 4's specific brand of fundamentalist religionism is the dehumanizing factor of believing that all souls are damned to hell by God unless they adopt Jesus as their personal deity. The radical belief aspect of any fundamentalist religion, which has nothing to do with genuine spirituality, is responsible for much of the world's suffering down through the ages. It will continue to be until religionists like 3 to be 4 discover spirituality through direct communion with God.

I do have direct communion with God. I know you'd like to continually throw out that lie ,despite my constant correction of your mistatements about what Born again Christians like myself believe, because it throws the discussion out of whack. Its a great debating skill. One guy says, I believe in National Health Care. The other guy says, my opponant wishes us to all be communists, and the first guy has to take the time to explain how hes not a communist.
fine,your a brilliant intellectual. And either you dont listen or you are a liar.

so fine, all Born again Christians, Evangelicals, Fundementalists, we want to infict suffering all over the world. You are the one who sounds like a lunatic.

 

[wistahpatsfan]

... What's genuinely frightening, and dangerous, about 3 to be 4's specific brand of fundamentalist religionism is the dehumanizing factor of believing that all souls are damned to hell by God unless they adopt Jesus as their personal deity. The radical belief aspect of any fundamentalist religion, which has nothing to do with genuine spirituality, is responsible for much of the world's suffering down through the ages. It will continue to be until religionists like 3 to be 4 discover spirituality through direct communion with God.

There's nothing "genuinely frightening and dangerous" about any religion. Religions are meaningless and fruitless if you want them to be. You can make them a central part of your life, no more differently than some people make gossip, consumerism, the NFL season, or mountain climbing a central part of their lives. Just because some people actively hate and oppose religion doesn't define it in any way. As our coach says, "It is what it is." No need to insult someone because they have some set of beliefs.

Religion is only an excuse some people use for hatred and misery in human history, when the truth is, people don't need a motivation to be evil (and I mean that in a secular way, as I don't believe in supernatural evil) to each other. When we look for a rationalization of the man's inhumanity to man, religion is an easy and innacurate explaination. You have to look deeper. Laziness and greed is the cause of it much more often than other religions.

 

[Tunescribe]

I do have direct communion with God. I know you'd like to continually throw out that lie ,despite my constant correction of your mistatements about what Born again Christians like myself believe, because it throws the discussion out of whack. Its a great debating skill. One guy says, I believe in National Health Care. The other guy says, my opponant wishes us to all be communists, and the first guy has to take the time to explain how hes not a communist.
fine,your a brilliant intellectual. And either you dont listen or you are a liar.

so fine, all Born again Christians, Evangelicals, Fundementalists, we want to infict suffering all over the world. You are the one who sounds like a lunatic.

OF COURSE fundamental religionists don't "want" to inflict pain and suffering, yet it is the byproduct of their zealous mission to "spread the word and save souls." If you deny this, you deny history.

And while we're at it, please tell us once again where loving, true-hearted, dedicated followers of these religions end up when they leave this earth: Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Rastafarians, Islamists, non-born-again Christians, Unitarian Universalists, etc., etc. -- in other words, most of the world's souls. They end up burning in agony in hell for all eternity, right?

A case in point: Ira Goldstein was a pious Hasidic Jew. Ira lived a wonderful life; he was a loving father and dedicated husband. He tithed his temple, he prayed daily and developed a personal relationship with God, living a life of grace and peace through direct spiritual guidance. Ira spent countless hours in community service and giving to charity to ease the suffering of his fellow man. He adopted a sick child from an orphanage half a world away and nurtured it as his own. On his deathbed, Ira was surrounded by many loved ones who were in awe of how much better he left the earth for being here. Yet, they knew that as much love as Ira spread in acts and deeds to his family and fellow man, he loved God even more. HOWEVER: According to YOU, or your interpretation of the Bible, Ira Goldstein is now twisting in horrible pain in the flames of hell for all eternity at the hands of God.

Try something for just a moment, 3 to be 4: Set your Bible aside for a second and clear your heart. Open it up to God, and ask: "Is Ira Goldstein and other loving souls like him truly burning in hell?"

You call it a "lie," but the reason I seriously doubt you have a personal relationship with God is constantly being reinforced by what you espouse. You have a GREAT relationship with the mechanics of your religion and what your literal interpretation of the Bible directs you to believe. But are you a spiritual man who truly knows God? I don't think so. If you believe Ira Goldstein and others like him are burning in hell on God's directive, there is absolutely no way you can.

 

[Tunescribe]

There's nothing "genuinely frightening and dangerous" about any religion. Religions are meaningless and fruitless if you want them to be. You can make them a central part of your life, no more differently than some people make gossip, consumerism, the NFL season, or mountain climbing a central part of their lives. Just because some people actively hate and oppose religion doesn't define it in any way. As our coach says, "It is what it is." No need to insult someone because they have some set of beliefs.

Religion is only an excuse some people use for hatred and misery in human history, when the truth is, people don't need a motivation to be evil (and I mean that in a secular way, as I don't believe in supernatural evil) to each other. When we look for a rationalization of the man's inhumanity to man, religion is an easy and innacurate explaination. You have to look deeper. Laziness and greed is the cause of it much more often than other religions.

I think you misinterpret my point somewhat, but I find myself also disagreeing with some of what you say. Religious zealots (fundamentalist Christians and Islamic extremists alike), feel justified in questionable acts because they genuinely believe they are doing God's will. THAT is where it can be dangerous. But you're right, it's not the religion per se, it's how it is interpreted and how those interpretations are applied. Much damage has been done to this world in the name of evangelical Christianity, which has more to do with the mechanics of religionism than genuine spirituality. I also know people whose lives have been harmed by this.

I did not set out to insult anyone, epecially solely on the basis of their beliefs. But if you go back through other threads in this forum you'll find ample intolerance, judgment and insult-lobbing by the person you're trying to defend.

 

[3 to be 4]

OF COURSE fundamental religionists don't "want" to inflict pain and suffering, yet it is the byproduct of their zealous mission to "spread the word and save souls." If you deny this, you deny history.

And while we're at it, please tell us once again where loving, true-hearted, dedicated followers of these religions end up when they leave this earth: Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Rastafarians, Islamists, non-born-again Christians, Unitarian Universalists, etc., etc. -- in other words, most of the world's souls. They end up burning in agony in hell for all eternity, right?

A case in point: Ira Goldstein was a pious Hasidic Jew. Ira lived a wonderful life; he was a loving father and dedicated husband. He tithed his temple, he prayed daily and developed a personal relationship with God, living a life of grace and peace through direct spiritual guidance. Ira spent countless hours in community service and giving to charity to ease the suffering of his fellow man. He adopted a sick child from an orphanage half a world away and nurtured it as his own. On his deathbed, Ira was surrounded by many loved ones who were in awe of how much better he left the earth for being here. Yet, they knew that as much love as Ira spread in acts and deeds to his family and fellow man, he loved God even more. HOWEVER: According to YOU, or your interpretation of the Bible, Ira Goldstein is twisting in horrible pain in the flames of hell for all eternity at the hands of God.

Try something for just a moment, 3 to be 4: Set your Bible aside for a second and clear your heart. Open it up to God, and ask: "Is Ira Goldstein and other loving souls like him truly burning in hell?"

You call it a "lie," but the reason I seriously doubt you have a personal relationship with God is constantly being reinforced by what you espouse. You have a GREAT relationship with the mechanics of your religion and what your literal interpretation of the Bible directs you to believe. But are you a spiritual man who truly knows God? I don't think so. If you believe Ira Goldstein and others like him are burning in hell, there is absolutely no way you can.

ok then, you have determined that no Born Again Christian has a personal relationship God. Thats quite the sweeping thought process.

Dont even try to "explain" to me the painful scenarios of good people and what happens. I have had two parents pass away.

As far as Ira Goldstein, he is the reason we spread the Gospel, so that a good person like Him can spend eternity with God in Heaven. You act as if its the believers fault that Hell exists, like we want people to go there. As if we are evil and cruel. When in fact, we believe there is a path to Heaven, and we are doing everything we can to get everyone there. To not say anything, to let souls be lost, that would be the evil and cruel thing.

It would be like saying the people who believe smoking is harmful are cruel for telling someone they are going to get lung cancer if they dont stop smoking a pack a day. "But that smoker was a good person"

im expecting you'll spend your response tearing that analogy down by pointing out smoking being harmful is scientic while believing in ************ as the way is only faith. But the point is, to a believer, we believe its a fact, as much as a scientist believes their theories are a fact.

To make it a moral issue that Christians believe Christ is the way and are cruel people for believing that is just a bigoted and hateful generalization on your part. Maybe if we were the ones doing the sending to hell I could understand it, but as we are the ones trying to fill the lifeboats, its way out of line.

Ever see the old Poseidon Adventutre? Gene Hackman believed all those people should climb up the Christmas Tree ( ironic) and follow his way to safety. The people below thought he was crazy. Was his character mean and cruel for telling those people they would surely die if they stayed?

A Born Again Christians motivations are like that of Hackmans character. We are not creating the bad news. We are believing in the truth of what we see and are trying to save others. And it doesnt matter if the masses are hollaring at us "You're crazy". It doesnt change what we know for ourselves to be truth.

Perhaps the one who is cruel in your Ira example arent the people who are trying to save him, its the God of our beliefs, or rather, if a God was as we believe, you feel that is a cruel God.

Then fine, tunescribe, dont believe in that God. It is your right. But I must tell you I believe you are missing the point. I believe that God has provided the escape, the path to heaven, the payment of sin, he has pointed the way for us all. He only has one requirement that so many find to be such a big hurdle. And in return we have everlasting life in Heaven with Him. No pain. No sorrow. pretty good deal.

If a building is on fire, and someone shows you the way out, is it cruel for that person to shout out at the hesitant one "if you stay here you'll die!"

your issue shouldnt be with the ones trying to save souls. If they turn out to be wrong, then they are simply wrong. They're motives and actions arent heartless and they not lacking a spriritual life.

more likely, your issue is with the God of their understanding. And if you have lost loved ones who werent believers in Christ, this is all probably pushing your buttons. The anger you express would be a natural cover for the thought that if this "lunatic" idea of how we get to Heaven is correct, then what of those loved ones. So the messenger of that Gospel would naturally offend you as you would have to deal with that possibility.

I know that place. I had to deal with that pain. And what got me through it is the knowledge that NONE of us knows what is going on in another persons heart and their relationship with God. By brother recently gave me a Bible that belonged to my father. I never knew my father had a Bible. It gave me hope that at the last moment he reached out. I have that hope about my mother. there is that hope for Ira.

On the flip side, people can go to church every sunday, give their money, help people, sing in the chorus. And not, in their heart, know the Lord.

only God knows these things. So it is very incorrect to tell others about what kind of spiritual connection they have with their God. Certainly not millions of Born Again Christians. I dont tell you that you arent spiritual or have a connection with God.

You keep coming back to this thread. Maybe you need to work out some things around this issue. Maybe the anger and focus on Hell is because of the possibility I raised above. I dont know.

But contrary to myth that be a good Christian people are not supposed to react or have strong emotions and if they get worked up they arent really with Christ, the fact is a strong Christian doesnt sit there and let the Word of God be lampooned or abused. We fight for our Lord.
It is simplistic and bigoted to imply and say outright what you do about people, millions and millions of them, who interpret the Bible as they do.

You focus on the seperation from God, the burning building, and think it cruel to want to get the people out. You do Satan a big favor.

My focus is on the escape from that, on the eternity with God He wants us all to have with Him.

hey, if me and people like me are wrong, we get a terrific surprise and Heaven is a lot more populated than we ever imagined.

if you're wrong...................

 

[3 to be 4]

I think you misinterpret my point somewhat, but I find myself also disagreeing with some of what you say. Religious zealots (fundamentalist Christians and Islamic extremists alike), feel justified in questionable acts because they genuinely believe they are doing God's will. THAT is where it can be dangerous. But you're right, it's not the religion per se, it's how it is interpreted and how those interpretations are applied. Much damage has been done to this world in the name of evangelical Christianity, which has more to do with the mechanics of religionism than genuine spirituality. I also know people whose lives have been harmed by this.

I did not set out to insult anyone, epecially solely on the basis of their beliefs. But if you go back through other threads in this forum you'll find ample intolerance, judgment and insult-lobbing by the person you're trying to defend.

"Much damage has been done to this world in the name of evangelical Christianity"
no intoleance, judgement, or insult-lobbing there. Just the love of Tunescribe.

 

[Tunescribe]

"Much damage has been done to this world in the name of evangelical Christianity"
no intoleance, judgement, or insult-lobbing there. Just the love of Tunescribe.

Oh come on, you can do better than that. I was stating an incontrovertible fact backed by history. If you consider that intolerance/judgment/insult-lobbing, you need to brush up on your Christian history.

 

[3 to be 4]

Oh come on, you can do better than that. I was stating an incontrovertible fact backed by history. If you consider that intolerance/judgment/insult-lobbing, you need to brush up on your Christian history.

im not debating that no damage has been done in the name of Christianity.
Ive dealt with that issue in previous threads. its a tired old fallback, a copout and excuse for non-believers to totally dismiss the REAL message of ************.
People who obviously werent following the teaching of Christ commited those acts.
To imply that the Evangelical Christians who are populating Casting Crowns or Mercy Me concerts are somehow a danger to start commiting genocide is an idiotic and hateful and bigoted conclusion.

are you also not going to befriend any Japanese people because of World War II?

there, is that better?

 

[Tunescribe]

ok then, you have determined that no Born Again Christian has a personal relationship God. Thats quite the sweeping thought process.

Dont even try to "explain" to me the painful scenarios of good people and what happens. I have had two parents pass away.

As far as Ira Goldstein, he is the reason we spread the Gospel, so that a good person like Him can spend eternity with God in Heaven. You act as if its the believers fault that Hell exists, like we want people to go there. As if we are evil and cruel. When in fact, we believe there is a path to Heaven, and we are doing everything we can to get everyone there. To not say anything, to let souls be lost, that would be the evil and cruel thing.

It would be like saying the people who believe smoking is harmful are cruel for telling someone they are going to get lung cancer if they dont stop smoking a pack a day. "But that smoker was a good person"

im expecting you'll spend your response tearing that analogy down by pointing out smoking being harmful is scientic while believing in ************ as the way is only faith. But the point is, to a believer, we believe its a fact, as much as a scientist believes their theories are a fact.

To make it a moral issue that Christians believe Christ is the way and are cruel people for believing that is just a bigoted and hateful generalization on your part. Maybe if we were the ones doing the sending to hell I could understand it, but as we are the ones trying to fill the lifeboats, its way out of line.

Ever see the old Poseidon Adventutre? Gene Hackman believed all those people should climb up the Christmas Tree ( ironic) and follow his way to safety. The people below thought he was crazy. Was his character mean and cruel for telling those people they would surely die if they stayed?

A Born Again Christians motivations are like that of Hackmans character. We are not creating the bad news. We are believing in the truth of what we see and are trying to save others. And it doesnt matter if the masses are hollaring at us "You're crazy". It doesnt change what we know for ourselves to be truth.

Perhaps the one who is cruel in your Ira example arent the people who are trying to save him, its the God of our beliefs, or rather, if a God was as we believe, you feel that is a cruel God.

Then fine, tunescribe, dont believe in that God. It is your right. But I must tell you I believe you are missing the point. I believe that God has provided the escape, the path to heaven, the payment of sin, he has pointed the way for us all. He only has one requirement that so many find to be such a big hurdle. And in return we have everlasting life in Heaven with Him. No pain. No sorrow. pretty good deal.

If a building is on fire, and someone shows you the way out, is it cruel for that person to shout out at the hesitant one "if you stay here you'll die!"

your issue shouldnt be with the ones trying to save souls. If they turn out to be wrong, then they are simply wrong. They're motives and actions arent heartless and they not lacking a spriritual life.

more likely, your issue is with the God of their understanding. And if you have lost loved ones who werent believers in Christ, this is all probably pushing your buttons. The anger you express would be a natural cover for the thought that if this "lunatic" idea of how we get to Heaven is correct, then what of those loved ones. So the messenger of that Gospel would naturally offend you as you would have to deal with that possibility.

I know that place. I had to deal with that pain. And what got me through it is the knowledge that NONE of us knows what is going on in another persons heart and their relationship with God. By brother recently gave me a Bible that belonged to my father. I never knew my father had a Bible. It gave me hope that at the last moment he reached out. I have that hope about my mother. there is that hope for Ira.

On the flip side, people can go to church every sunday, give their money, help people, sing in the chorus. And not, in their heart, know the Lord.

only God knows these things. So it is very incorrect to tell others about what kind of spiritual connection they have with their God. Certainly not millions of Born Again Christians. I dont tell you that you arent spiritual or have a connection with God.

You keep coming back to this thread. Maybe you need to work out some things around this issue. Maybe the anger and focus on Hell is because of the possibility I raised above. I dont know.

But contrary to myth that be a good Christian people are not supposed to react or have strong emotions and if they get worked up they arent really with Christ, the fact is a strong Christian doesnt sit there and let the Word of God be lampooned or abused. We fight for our Lord.
It is simplistic and bigoted to imply and say outright what you do about people, millions and millions of them, who interpret the Bible as they do.

You focus on the seperation from God, the burning building, and think it cruel to want to get the people out. You do Satan a big favor.

My focus is on the escape from that, on the eternity with God He wants us all to have with Him.

hey, if me and people like me are wrong, we get a terrific surprise and Heaven is a lot more populated than we ever imagined.

if you're wrong...................

I keep coming back to this thread, in part, because you're helping me understand the evangelical religionist mindset. I'm certainly not angry about any of this discussion, or worried or fearful on a personal level. But I do feel it is important that people of your persuasion (fundamental religionists) do not gain significant political power or positions of high authority. G.W. Bush's orientation there has been somewhat muted/ambiguous since he's been in office, but many of his actions seem to have pointed in that direction. Thank God that the recent congressional elections will mean that he's more or less kept in check for the balance of his tenure.

So, you really, truly, believe Ira Goldstein is burning in hell? I know he didn't convert on his deathbed. He was humbly dedicated to God through his Jewish faith.

 

[Tunescribe]

im not debating that no damage has been done in the name of Christianity.
Ive dealt with that issue in previous threads. its a tired old fallback, a copout and excuse for non-believers to totally dismiss the REAL message of ************.
People who obviously werent following the teaching of Christ commited those acts.
To imply that the Evangelical Christians who are populating Casting Crowns or Mercy Me concerts are somehow a danger to start commiting genocide is an idiotic and hateful and bigoted conclusion.

are you also not going to befriend any Japanese people because of World War II?

there, is that better?

Now you're just being silly. But, I do see a glimmer of hope in the fact that you're emphasizing Jesus' message (as in teachings) and not being overfocused, as usual, on his exclusionary divinity.

 

[3 to be 4]

I keep coming back to this thread, in part, because you're helping me understand the evangelical religionist mindset. I'm certainly not angry about any of this discussion, or worried or fearful on a personal level. But I do feel it is important that people of your persuasion (fundamental religionists) do not gain significant political power or positions of high authority. G.W. Bush's orientation there has been somewhat muted/ambiguous since he's been in office, but many of his actions seem to have pointed in that direction. Thank God that the recent congressional elections will mean that he's more or less kept in check for the balance of his tenure.

So, you really, truly, believe Ira Goldstein is burning in hell? I know he didn't convert on his deathbed. He was humbly dedicated to God through his Jewish faith.

I dont care for GW Bush or many of the politically minded right wing Evangelicals. And there are many Christians who believe that Jesus is Lord, died for our sins, raised 3 days later, is the way to Heaven, and are Democrats. a good 40% of Evangelicals. And about 80% of Black Christians. But that doesnt get reported as its an easier generalization to make Christians into right wingers. This stops many non-believers from accepting Christ. The lie from the devil that if they did, they'd have to follow Pat Robertson or something. As ive said before, ever been to a Black Church?

as for Ira Goldstein. I really hope he is not. Neither I or you can know. Scripture tells us, Nobody goes to the Father except through His Son.

good works dont get us there, because none of us deserve it. We are Saved only by the blood of Jesus. And then we are glorified in Him.

You still are so focused on the Hell part, you totally miss out on the Good news. You totally miss out on the Salvation God has provided.

Ever hear the old joke:
A man is on his roof, flood waters are rising. A boat comes to rescue him
"No thanks, God will save me" A helicopter comes "No thanks, God will save me" Finally, he drowns. When he gets to Heaven he asks God, "Lord, why didnt you save me??" God answers "I sent a boat, I sent a helicopter..."

God is providing a means of rescue. He sent His son who fulfilled 300 prophesis from the Old Testament. He healed the sick, He gave sight to the blind, His miracles were witnessed but dismissed by the religious because he healed on the Sabbath. Jesus died on the Cross. And the resurrected Jesus was witnessed and those who witnessed went to agonizing deaths proclaiming what they saw.

God provides rescue. He provides Salvation. All he wants is our acceptance of his gift. Our belief in what He did for us. Then we have everything. We are His forever.

But we are responsible for our choice. I dont want people to miss out on accepting the gift, but that gift of belief cannot be forced. There is no such thing as forced conversion. Conversion is a matter of the heart, not a paper you are forced to sign. So those who ever engaged in that behavior were not of Christ. They did not have the Holy Spirit because a true believer in Christs teachings knows its not what you say, its whats in your heart, and you cant force someone to believe anything.

I want for people like Ira to accept the Salvation Jesus provided. And God wants it. But each one of his makes our own choice.

its not God cruelty. God offered a way.

Man rejects it. I thank God everyday I dont have to worry about my place with Him. But that is not enough. I want everyone to have a place with God forever.

I want the Ira Goldsteins of the world to be with God forever. I want my mother and father to be with God forever.

This is real for me, Tune. I dont glibly say, lucky me I have it, and you guys dont.

I believe this with all my heart. And its means the world to me. Its personal to me. Its not just the Ira's. Its my father and mother. Its friends that I know. Its my sister. My brother. real people that I love. And others that I dont.

You can interpret the Bible differently from me. But try to understand where im coming from and where, I believe, most any Christian who believes in ************ is coming from.

We dont do what we do to make your life uneasy. We dont do it to offend you. We dont do it to be a "danger" to the world.

i ask you again, those people at the Casting Crown concert, or the ones in other music videos i post, the ones crying their hearts out to Jesus, you think they are out to persecute the world? really?

We do it because its what we believe with every ounce of our being and we are comissioned by the Lord we trust in to share this Gospel with every soul we can reach. Because failure to do so costs souls.

we are on a rescue mission, and you blame us for the ones who refused to be rescued.

disagree with the interpretation, but move to understand the heart and the motives of those for who have scorn.

I keep doing this, here and other places, because the Holy Spirit has moved me to do so, because although 990 out of 1,000 may not agree with me, if I can stand firm and keep the Gospel alive until 990 becomes 980, thats 10 souls that are saved. Even if its one, that one more than if I didnt. And that one is worth more to God than any money I have, any time I could have spent, anything I will ever be involved with. Any ridicule or any name I could be called.

I do it because thats how much God loves me, and His calling for me and every other Christian is to take that love out to you.

I dont really know you, I dont like the things you say about me. But I still love you and everyone else here not to give up looking for whoever may be the one.

theres a song that says "What if it takes 15 times to hear about Jesus? What if im the 3rd, or the 7th...."

This market doesnt hear much about the real ************. it hears about religion. But not the Jesus of the Bible.

maybe I can be the 3rd time someone hears this message, to forget about Religion, or Christianity, or people in fancy suits going to big fancy churches. and seek out ************. Read his words in Matthew, Mark,Luke, and John.
Seek Him out in prayer, and keep the focus on Him, and He'll change your life, and give you eternity.

Reach out to the one who died so that you might live.

the Gospel means the Good News. Its a Good message. Jesus loves you and with Him there is eternal life.

Good night everybody.

 

[thesmee1]

I keep coming back to this thread, in part, because you're helping me understand the evangelical religionist mindset. I'm certainly not angry about any of this discussion, or worried or fearful on a personal level. But I do feel it is important that people of your persuasion (fundamental religionists) do not gain significant political power or positions of high authority. G.W. Bush's orientation there has been somewhat muted/ambiguous since he's been in office, but many of his actions seem to have pointed in that direction. Thank God that the recent congressional elections will mean that he's more or less kept in check for the balance of his tenure.

So, you really, truly, believe Ira Goldstein is burning in hell? I know he didn't convert on his deathbed. He was humbly dedicated to God through his Jewish faith.

Thank you, Tunescribe, that was what I was trying to get across to 3 to be 4. If you are not a part of the fundamentalist movement, as a Catholic, I'm going to hell. 3 to be 4, spirituality isn't how many times you read the Bible, because I have a cousin who can quote it word for word. How she interprets it, and how I do, are two different things. It's how you live your life. It's the lessons you learn in this life that make you stronger spiritually. I don't bash fundamentalism because that's where 3 to be 4 finds his peace, just don't scare people and children of other faiths thinking if their way is different, they're going to hell. And God Bless Ira Goldstein.

 

[thesmee1]

Well, it was pretty easy to be excommunicated back in the day... I guess Luther went far enough but most people who followed didn't. It probably wasn't possible back then, but I think protestants who came after him should have treated the Catholic church as the hollow institution it always was and rejected its Bible translations, creeds, ceremonies, and traditions (including church on Sunday and the method for reckoning Easter). However, they probably had no knowledge of what came before the Roman church, like the Celtic church, Coptics, Gnostics, etc. I am a non-Christian (and anti-organized religion) and hate partisanism in general, but to see protestant and catholic church leaders co-mingling bothers me greatly. nobody should ever forgive the Roman church for its crimes against humanity or allow it to wear a mantle of authority for all pre-16th century religious matters.

I think even back then, people were creatures of habit. They kept the creeds and traditions so that people could feel better about leaving the roman church, and still keeping the idea of being 'religious.' It wasn't the same, but it was close. To them, that was cool. It was like having the best of both worlds.

The Catholic church always had it's thumb pushed down on the poor and uneducated, and it still does. They don't question crimes against humanity, because to them, the church is infallible. Even in antiquated times.

Notice that the majority of Catholics are from third world countries, and latin america. They don't question the ban on birth control, and divorce? Forget it.
it's the same today as it was eons ago.

 

[3 to be 4]

Thank you, Tunescribe, that was what I was trying to get across to 3 to be 4. If you are not a part of the fundamentalist movement, as a Catholic, I'm going to hell. 3 to be 4, spirituality isn't how many times you read the Bible, because I have a cousin who can quote it word for word. How she interprets it, and how I do, are two different things. It's how you live your life. It's the lessons you learn in this life that make you stronger spiritually. I don't bash fundamentalism because that's where 3 to be 4 finds his peace, just don't scare people and children of other faiths thinking if their way is different, they're going to hell. And God Bless Ira Goldstein.

That is totally false, thesmee1

A Catholic who believe in ************ is going to Heaven. Anybody who believes in ************ is the Son of God, died for our sins, and raised from the dead 3 days later is going to Heaven. Most Evangelicals, anybody who understands scripture knows this.
There are some fundementalists, i ran into a few in South Carolina, mostly Southern Baptists, who have this bigoted and unbiblical prejudice towards Catholics. Its not the Christian teaching.

So please, I believe I explained this before, dont keep saying I believe that.

one more point. I dont spend a lot of time defining what Hell is as my focus is on the rewards of Heaven. others here keep saying "Burning in Hell. Its not clear if thats exactly how it is, no more than anyone can claim they know exactly what Heaven is. But I do believe Hell is an eternal seperation. A spiritual place there is no peace, only darkness.

So again, If a building in is on fire and I know of an escape, im not going to sit there and watch you die in it. To be silent is cruel and sinful.

The world we live in is a lot scarier than the comfort, hope, and promise God provides.

 

[BruschiOnTap]

I think even back then, people were creatures of habit. They kept the creeds and traditions so that people could feel better about leaving the roman church, and still keeping the idea of being 'religious.' It wasn't the same, but it was close. To them, that was cool. It was like having the best of both worlds.

The Catholic church always had it's thumb pushed down on the poor and uneducated, and it still does. They don't question crimes against humanity, because to them, the church is infallible. Even in antiquated times.

Notice that the majority of Catholics are from third world countries, and latin america. They don't question the ban on birth control, and divorce? Forget it.
it's the same today as it was eons ago.

You make a good point, it's tough to get followers without making change palatable.

The Roman church today, thank goodness, is a shell of its former self, but its sway in poor countries is, sadly, still powerful. People can believe what they want, but the church is hurting the global population by still denouncing birth control. Of course, if the poor masses used condoms, there would be fewer people putting money in the collection plate...

 

[Tunescribe]

People can believe what they want, but the church is hurting the global population by still denouncing birth control. Of course, if the poor masses used condoms, there would be fewer people putting money in the collection plate...

It's a huge problem in South America. Little kids everywhere, abject poverty, and destruction of the rainforest. I've been there and it is heartbreaking, all in the name of Catholicism.

 

[thesmee1]

It's a huge problem in South America. Little kids everywhere, abject poverty, and destruction of the rainforest. I've been there and it is heartbreaking, all in the name of Catholicism.

Not that I'm bashing Catholicism, but that is what they do. The more enlightened the culture, the less of a hold they have on people. It's just like in the dark ages. Multiply and propagate, yet when you can't afford the children you're propagating, that becomes an issue, especially if you're uneducated and really don't know any better, or don't want to know any better. I had an aunt that practiced the rythmn method and she rythmned out 6 kids.

In my view the church needs to be brought into the current millenium. Over population is a problem, not like in the dark and middle ages. Like right now. I'd like to see Benedict address this. I'm not advocating abortion, because I couldn't do it myself. But if a woman was raped, it would be her choice. I can't judge, because in the end, God or Infinite Wisdom judges all.

 

[thesmee1]

It's a huge problem in South America. Little kids everywhere, abject poverty, and destruction of the rainforest. I've been there and it is heartbreaking, all in the name of Catholicism.

I had 2 children and at 45 I had my tubes done. Being Catholic, I felt guilty about that, because at 46, my mother had me. Right now, 2 kids are enough. Why not give that option to others and the church endorsing it? We'll never see it in our lifetimes, sadly.

 

[thesmee1]

That is totally false, thesmee1

A Catholic who believe in ************ is going to Heaven. Anybody who believes in ************ is the Son of God, died for our sins, and raised from the dead 3 days later is going to Heaven. Most Evangelicals, anybody who understands scripture knows this.
There are some fundementalists, i ran into a few in South Carolina, mostly Southern Baptists, who have this bigoted and unbiblical prejudice towards Catholics. Its not the Christian teaching.

So please, I believe I explained this before, dont keep saying I believe that.

one more point. I dont spend a lot of time defining what Hell is as my focus is on the rewards of Heaven. others here keep saying "Burning in Hell. Its not clear if thats exactly how it is, no more than anyone can claim they know exactly what Heaven is. But I do believe Hell is an eternal seperation. A spiritual place there is no peace, only darkness.

So again, If a building in is on fire and I know of an escape, im not going to sit there and watch you die in it. To be silent is cruel and sinful.

The world we live in is a lot scarier than the comfort, hope, and promise God provides.

3, I'm not singling you out in particular, and I'm sorry if I made you feel this way. Perhaps my meaning isn't coming out right. What I'm saying is that the majority of Protestants, including Fundamentalists, ( not necessarily you,) feel that way. Am I right in that presumption?