Antonio Brown

[Biffins]

Perhaps it was before you became a fan, so I'll make it short:

Half the Patriots had the flu that AFCCG. The Colts turned up the heat. Pats had a huge lead at the half and dehydrated the 2nd half. They lost in the last minute on a Brady INT.
The score by the 'offensively challenged Patriots'????? 38-34. The problem that game was the Patriots Defense giving up 32 freaking points in the 2nd Half. Can you understand that last sentence?

AFC Championship - New England Patriots at Indianapolis Colts - January 21st, 2007 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Brady had a better QBR than Manning that game.

Your point is a FAIL.

The next year they had arguably the greatest offense in NFL history and also lost the SB by a score of 17-14.

Ice up, son. You can take the makeup test. But you're going to have to study real hard. Stuff like this isn't easy for folks like you who weren't actually following the team back then.

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I saw it live, I know the situation and the pain is still fresh as fck. So don't remind me.

And my point is still valid. Reche Caldwell sucked donkeyballs and he was our lead receiver. And next year we dumped Caldwell and brought in some guys called Moss (98 receptions, 1493 yards), Welker (112 receptions, 1175 yards) and Stallworth (46 receptions, 697 yards). Look them up.

You are validating my point. The 2006 team would have been fine if not for the junk receivers. The only reason we were up 21-6 by half-time was that we got a pick-6 from the good defense and a great OL and ground game. When we gave up some drives in 2nd half, and needed to throw some passes Caldwell had some crucial drops and ended the game with 4 catches of 9 targets for 46 yards. Brady merely got 230 yards in the game. We had no receivers. BB wouldn't have overhauled the WR corps if he didn't agree.

I don't know why you are arguing this point. Anyone who follows the game would acknowledge if your lead receivers are Caldwell and Gaffney, you are probably #32 in the league in terms of WR quality and depth.

 

[Biffins]

Perhaps it was before you became a fan, so I'll make it short:

Half the Patriots had the flu that AFCCG. The Colts turned up the heat. Pats had a huge lead at the half and dehydrated the 2nd half. They lost in the last minute on a Brady INT.
The score by the 'offensively challenged Patriots'????? 38-34. The problem that game was the Patriots Defense giving up 32 freaking points in the 2nd Half. Can you understand that last sentence?

AFC Championship - New England Patriots at Indianapolis Colts - January 21st, 2007 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Brady had a better QBR than Manning that game.

Your point is a FAIL.

The next year they had arguably the greatest offense in NFL history and also lost the SB by a score of 17-14.

Ice up, son. You can take the makeup test. But you're going to have to study real hard. Stuff like this isn't easy for folks like you who weren't actually following the team back then.

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Remember this ? Perhaps it's you with the short memory.

 

[shmessy]

I saw it live, I know the situation and the pain is still fresh as fck. So don't remind me.

And my point is still valid. Reche Caldwell sucked donkeyballs and he was our lead receiver. And next year we dumped Caldwell and brought in some guys called Moss (98 receptions, 1493 yards), Welker (112 receptions, 1175 yards) and Stallworth (46 receptions, 697 yards). Look them up.

You are validating my point. The 2006 team would have been fine if not for the junk receivers. The only reason we were up 21-6 by half-time was that we got a pick-6 from the good defense and a great OL and ground game. When we gave up some drives in 2nd half, and needed to throw some passes Caldwell had some crucial drops and ended the game with 4 catches of 9 targets for 46 yards. Brady merely got 230 yards in the game. We had no receivers. BB wouldn't have overhauled the WR corps if he didn't agree.

I don't know why you are arguing this point. Anyone who follows the game would acknowledge if your lead receivers are Caldwell and Gaffney, you are probably #32 in the league in terms of WR quality and depth.

The Pats D gave up 32 points in the 2nd half to lose 38-34. None of your word salad fools anyone.

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[Horace's Ivories]

That D was bad but that drop was wide eyed awful..

 

[shmessy]

.....And my point is still valid. Reche Caldwell sucked donkeyballs and he was our lead receiver. And next year we dumped Caldwell and brought in some guys called Moss (98 receptions, 1493 yards), Welker (112 receptions, 1175 yards) and Stallworth (46 receptions, 697 yards). Look them up.

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Yeah, that 2007 WR corps was indeed great. Which of the banners in Gillette is the one for SB 42?

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[Tony2046]

The Pats D gave up 32 points in the 2nd half to lose 38-34. None of your word salad fools anyone.

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And yet you wanted to trade Bennett for Sanu.

 

[shmessy]

And yet you wanted to trade Bennett for Sanu.

Sanu is not a deep threat diva WR. He’s a depth WR.

Sure. It helps to have good WRs. It’s not a prerequisite to winning a Super Bowl. In fact, the last 3 Patriots SB champions had no elite long threat WR. The voices saying that without one the Pats cannot win it all are simply not remembering.

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[tmajr3]

Looks more like AB's Instagram post and Tom Brady "liked" it.

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Ya my bad!!

 

[tmajr3]

AJ Green would basically be a less drama filled version of AB. Theyre basically the same age and Green is bigger. Bill made it happen with Corey Dillon and he could do it with Green but I'm not sure if Cincy would do it.

And Green has been injured a few times with concerning injuries the last couple years

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Yeah, that 2007 WR corps was indeed great. Which of the banners in Gillette is the one for SB 42?

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Come on, dude. You can make your point about AB’s bad behavior and about WRs being generally overvalued. Moss was here on a $3M base deal in 2007. Citing the 2007 Patriots as an argument against superstar receivers is not a good one. Take a reasonable viewpoint here: having a good/great wide receiver is not a bad thing, though paying big for one is often a bad investment. I am with you about WRs having way less impact than they are perceived to have, but nothing is that black and white.

Having a huge impact receiver does not cause teams to lose games...a lot of this is also explained by the QB MVP/passing yards trend, which is that QBs who put up massive numbers have come up short of a Lombardi for years. They are, however, in the Super Bowl often, as are superstar receivers. The more balanced team just tends to win more often when it’s a battle of the league’s two best teams.

Also keep in mind that while Edelman, Amendola, and Gronkowski (flexed as a WR) are not 1,400 yard receivers, they have had a huge impact on winning 5 AFC Championships and 3 Super Bowls. Same with Brown and Branch of the 2000s. These are darn good receivers who arguably could have much bigger numbers in a different system, and someone like Brown, Jones, or Green would likely see a reduction of targets in the Patriots offense. But their talent and efficient play would still be instrumental in winning big games, just like the Patriots players I pointed out. I would argue that Moss and Welker didn’t win a title because of other deficiencies (running game, offensive line, overrated depth at WR, not a great tight end)...not because of their play in big games, and certainly not due to their affordable salaries.

 

[Triumph]

That D was bad but that drop was wide eyed awful..

It was 100 degrees inside that dome that night.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Sanu is not a deep threat diva WR. He’s a depth WR.

Sure. It helps to have good WRs. It’s not a prerequisite to winning a Super Bowl. In fact, the last 3 Patriots SB champions had no elite long threat WR. The voices saying that without one the Pats cannot win it all are simply not remembering.

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Who is saying the Patriots can’t win a Super Bowl without an elite long threat receiver? First of all, Brown isn’t really a deep threat...he’s an all-around route/YAC guy and not like a Moss or DeSean Jackson. Beyond that point, no one is saying that not having an elite receiver gives the Patriots no chance to win the Super Bowl. The point being made is simply that they aren’t as strong as they could be, especially with the compounding effect that an elite skill player brings in making it easier for others. That’s why Gronkowski’s presence was so critical, and the hope is that Brown, while playing a different position, would have a similar effect in forcing defenses into zones and doubling him, rolling worse coverages on other players.

It is hard to find a rational argument that they are actually better off without Brown, considering he is already paid for. “The voices saying...” is just a straw man that you’re using to exaggerate the viewpoint of many people who don’t like this move in releasing Brown.

Sometimes their strongest teams do not win it all; sometimes their not as strong overall teams do win it all. There is some luck and variance involved; gelling at the right time; getting some bounces and called back interceptions on offsides penalties; opponent QB urinating on himself in the SB. There’s no certainty they’d win the SB had they kept Brown and he returned to the field; if they do win the SB, there’s no certainty that they wouldn’t have won it with Brown anyway. All you can do is try to bring in the best players at the best values and hope for the best. Arguing that the Patriots certainly would/certainly wouldn’t win a Lombardi due to Brown is an endless argument of speculation. Arguing they’d be a better team with him in the lineup is not that debatable.

But he’s gone, so that’s that. Why pile on with rather silly arguments that the offense is better off without a receiver with his talent? The team decided to release him, so let’s just be optimistic with what we have...there’s no need to make absurd reaches of logic - confusing causation and correlation - to justify an argument. As a pure player, Brown is a stud and would have been great, but he will not play. There’s no need to trash his on-field impact.

 

[rochrist]

I saw it live, I know the situation and the pain is still fresh as fck. So don't remind me.

And my point is still valid. Reche Caldwell sucked donkeyballs and he was our lead receiver. And next year we dumped Caldwell and brought in some guys called Moss (98 receptions, 1493 yards), Welker (112 receptions, 1175 yards) and Stallworth (46 receptions, 697 yards). Look them up.

You are validating my point. The 2006 team would have been fine if not for the junk receivers. The only reason we were up 21-6 by half-time was that we got a pick-6 from the good defense and a great OL and ground game. When we gave up some drives in 2nd half, and needed to throw some passes Caldwell had some crucial drops and ended the game with 4 catches of 9 targets for 46 yards. Brady merely got 230 yards in the game. We had no receivers. BB wouldn't have overhauled the WR corps if he didn't agree.

I don't know why you are arguing this point. Anyone who follows the game would acknowledge if your lead receivers are Caldwell and Gaffney, you are probably #32 in the league in terms of WR quality and depth.

The 2006 team would have been fine if they hadn't all come down with the flu in the week leading up to the game and if the refs hadn't screwed the Pats over completely.

 

[shmessy]

Come on, dude. You can make your point about AB’s bad behavior and about WRs being generally overvalued. Moss was here on a $3M base deal in 2007. Citing the 2007 Patriots as an argument against superstar receivers is not a good one. ..........

That was NEVER my argument!

Once again, and very slowly.......having no elite diva WR guarantees nothing and in no way deep sixes Super Bowl chances. It simply doesn't. Look at the past 20 years of Super Bowl winners. How many Randy Moss', Terrell Owens', Julio Jones', OBJ's, Dez Bryants, etc. are there on the SB winning teams?

Is it nice? You bet. But I'll take team chemistry over the diva WR anyday of the week when considering the past 20 years of this particular dynasty. Losing team chemistry and having distractions is far worse than losing a diva great talent WR. Far worse. The reaction in some corners here to AB getting cut has been fascinating to watch.

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[shmessy]

.........It is hard to find a rational argument that they are actually better off without Brown, considering he is already paid for. .......

Sometimes their strongest teams do not win it all; sometimes their not as strong overall teams do win it all. There is some luck and variance involved; gelling at the right time; getting some bounces and called back interceptions on offsides penalties; opponent QB urinating on himself in the SB.........

But he’s gone, so that’s that. Why pile on with rather silly arguments that the offense is better off without a receiver with his talent? The team decided to release him, so let’s just be optimistic with what we have...there’s no need to make absurd reaches of logic - confusing causation and correlation - to justify an argument. As a pure player, Brown is a stud and would have been great, but he will not play. There’s no need to trash his on-field impact.

Very fair post, Ice-Ice.

On the field - - he's an enormous talent. Probably the most talented at what he does.

In your 2nd point I highlighted there, point about sometimes the strongest teams don't win it all, regarding luck and variance? You do mention in there "gelling at the right time". THAT is the most interesting part and I think that needs to be expanded upon

Lucky bounces are out of everyone's ability to change. What BB understands as the part that IS a habit that can be affecting is your "gelling at the right time". In Do Your Job, when he is talking about the meaning of the term, he underscores ACCOUNTABILITY - - not only doing one's job but also being automatically conscious and present in mind to act and react in a manner that supports the guy next to you and the entire team when the pressure is on.

There are lists of instances over the past several years (sadly, the majority of them are after the Burfickt hit) where Antonio Brown shows that he lacks the ability to be ACCOUNTABLE to his team. It is what it is. It's what got Adalius Thomas shipped out, it got Jonas Gray shipped out, it got Randy Moss (at the end) shipped out and it Jamie Collins shipped out the first time. None of them committed any crimes in getting cut or traded, that's a moot point here. They simply did things (either consciously or unconsciously) at those times that put their own interests over the team's. THAT, right there, is the central point. When teams are "gelling at the right time" as you put it , the players are in 100% trust of each other rowing in the same direction at the same time. THAT is a characteristic Antonio Brown simply does not possess. And that is too much of a risk for a team that is expected to win it all.

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[NYCPATS4LIFE]

Sanu is not a deep threat diva WR. He’s a depth WR.

Sure. It helps to have good WRs. It’s not a prerequisite to winning a Super Bowl. In fact, the last 3 Patriots SB champions had no elite long threat WR. The voices saying that without one the Pats cannot win it all are simply not remembering.

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Well it helps that Goff was the QB in the super bowl. He was overwhelmed by the occasion.

 

[captain stone]

That D was bad but that drop was wide eyed awful..

If Brady was standing in shotgun formation, he sees Bug Eyes much, Much sooner...But No, he's behind Center...on 1st/FIFTEEN...Why?!?

 

[TheRainMaker]

If Brady was standing in shotgun formation, he sees Bug Eyes much, Much sooner...But No, he's behind Center...on 1st/FIFTEEN...Why?!?

Why doesn’t Brady take any blame for not seeing this? And do people not realize that Bethea was right there to tackle him had he caught the ball?

 

[Soliel]

I’m starting to agree with him. Reason being the investigation is not showing much

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

That was NEVER my argument!

Once again, and very slowly.......having no elite diva WR guarantees nothing and in no way deep sixes Super Bowl chances. It simply doesn't. Look at the past 20 years of Super Bowl winners. How many Randy Moss', Terrell Owens', Julio Jones', OBJ's, Dez Bryants, etc. are there on the SB winning teams?

Is it nice? You bet. But I'll take team chemistry over the diva WR anyday of the week when considering the past 20 years of this particular dynasty. Losing team chemistry and having distractions is far worse than losing a diva great talent WR. Far worse. The reaction in some corners here to AB getting cut has been fascinating to watch.

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You are entitled to the opinion that based on Brown’s history, his distracting behavior outweighs his value. That isn’t a totally far fetched idea. I personally would agree with it if I thought Belichick was the one who decided to release him. Belichick was okay with bringing him to the Patriots even after the helmet....ummmm...thing, and with a full knowledge of his locker room issues in the past. I read a lot about Brown this offseason, and my take on him is that he is an immature guy but was a well-liked teammate up until last year when Fat Ben threw him under the bus on his radio show. But by and large, ex-teammates expressed surprise and concern for Brown, who they felt was a good teammate until he lost his ****, whereas you can’t find an ex-Steeler who doesn’t pour gasoline all over Ben. His Facebook Live incident was pretty crappy, but that’s something where Belichick, Brady, and the Patriots locker room would not let happen.

Which brings us to his off-field issues, the crux of this thread. All I’d say is that the Patriots are the best team in the NFL when it comes to living within their bubble. The “distractions” about Brown’s legal problems are a distraction to Kraft, the fans, but not the team itself. The locker room famously blocks out the noise. There’s a big difference between being a locker room cancer and an off-field mess. I trust Bill’s judgment they he could prevent Brown from being a locker room cancer.

All that said, I won’t die on a hill to defend Antonio Brown’s character. He in many ways has dug his own grave with a **** ton of bad decisions and generally does not seem like a good person. I just wish the Patriots had done everything they could to try to work it out because he is that good, the locker room stuff I think is overblown, and I watch football to observe what happens on the field, not for stories that happen off it with players, Aaron Hernandez type stuff excluded. Wish they had either tried to work it out or at least not release him with the most moronic possible timing, ensuring they will get screwed, because Kraft couldn’t handle the heat for another week.