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According to PFT, the Patriots have no obligation to accept penalties. The organization can appeal


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I like dis part..... Sounds like florio who is a lawyer is conceding that kraft could sue the league, good i hope he does. You need to be loyal to your team and its fans who pay the freight, not a bunch of owners who would like to see your team go down in flames.

Litigation filed by the Patriots remains an unlikely possibility, for a variety of reasons. For example, it would potentially alienate Kraft from his partners, and it would set a bad precedent.

If Kraft is angry enough to consider filing suit, however, that’s bad news for Commissioner Roger Goodell. Once Kraft realizes that filing suit isn’t a realistic option, Kraft could instead embark on an effort to overhaul the leadership of the league.

I was hoping someone would start a thread on this topic (I was about to do so myself). It is unbelievable to me that this punishment has been levied by the NFL over something this trivial, and which I still maintain (as a physicist) that the pressure loss is easily explained by the Ideal Gas Law. Presumably Brady will file his own legal action (which I would expect to be successful), but that doesn't address the devastating loss of draft picks ( 1st and 4th) for the Patriots.

Trying to get Goodell fired is a long term solution, but doesn't address the loss of draft picks. Plus, is it a given that the other owners would fire Goodell? If anything I wonder if this hatchet job is an attempt to gain favor from the other 31 owners, who evidently resent the long term success of the Patriots and are constantly revising the rules against the Patriots (e.g., the new ineligible receiver and concussion rules).

I am not a lawyer, so I have a question for the lawyers on this web site: Why is it unlikely that the Patriots seek litigation, to address the loss in draft picks, if nothing else? The other owners seem to resent the Patriots anyway, would it really be that catastrophic to "go rouge" and pursue litigation? Is the "alienation of the other owners" and "bad precedent" really that big of a deal? Any answers from lawyers on this site?
 
Make it so, Kraft! Don't take this lying down! It looks like he has no intention to do so. It's going to be interesting to see what options he pursues. I think the sequence of actions will be important. It's going to be like Dominos. And at the end I believe he will have Goodell's head on a platter! :)

The Wells report by the way is anything BUT independent. It was prepared by Exponent, the same company that did a study trying to sell the idea that second hand smoke is not harmful. And the firm hired are basically the lapdogs of the NFL and fully paid by the NFL to conduct the so called 'independent' investigation. The same legal team that tried to argue the billion dollar concussion case against NFL players.

http://www.footballbyfootball.com/column/the-nfl-thinks-youre-stupid
 
Krafty Bob needs to think about the sequencing here. It would seem to me that he has a few routes

-Bob has meeting with Goody to emplore him to reduce sanctions. Goody says no.
-Bob potentially conducts a caucus to determine who would support a new commissioner. This makes Bob look bad.
-Bob tells Goody he has the support to get his ass tossed out. Reduce the sanctions...Goody says no.
-Bob threatens litigation either motioning to remove Goody or reducing sanctions.
-All options are nuclear in nature...man.
As smart as Kraft, he would not show his cards like that. Any renegotiation is ver unlikely since it makes No Good el look bad. The best result is appeal and the faked report is tossed. No Good ell wont look bad for clearing Pats. Or a lawsuit which he is a certain losser regardless of the result.
 
As smart as Kraft, he would not show his cards like that. Any renegotiation is ver unlikely since it makes No Good el look bad. The best result is appeal and the faked report is tossed. No Good ell wont look bad for clearing Pats. Or a lawsuit which he is a certain losser regardless of the result.
Agree 100%. Everything after point #1 is done under the cover of darkness or a mafia style hit.
 
Interesting...and leads me to say to the multiple posters who have said categorically that "those picks are gone" to please shut up if you're only guessing, or at least say you're only guessing.

I dunno i can't fault anyone for being pessimistic at this point given the situation and what has unfolded thus far.

I'm begging Kraft to let loose the dogs of war... to hell with the consequences. Sometimes in life, there are larger things at play than profit or appeasing business partners. All you leave this world with is your name and your reputation... Both of which are being dragged through the mud by an angry mob... even if this will hurt himself and the league financially, it's a matter of principle to stand against this egregious storm of **** being flung at them.
 
I have to give a big hat tip to Mike Florio - his last few articles have been insightful and informative.

His piece on how this all started and wound out of control is an indictment of far more than than deflategate.
 
In my opinion Kraft should go straight to a federal court, to send a message to the other owners. It's clear to me that if there is not a conspiracy at place, that the other owners can't stand NE every year in the AFC Championship game. And with Manning toasted and Luck owned by BB, must likely Superbowl back to back.

The NFL needs a deep investigation because it's to much dirty it's going through the roof. Put some fear in these mobsters, this needs to be addressed seriously.
 
Why is it unlikely that the Patriots seek litigation, to address the loss in draft picks, if nothing else?

Because they have, in general, waived their right to sue the league as part of their agreement to be a member club in the NFL.

The question is:

  1. What types of claims (if any) does the franchise agreement exempt from the waiver and are any of them relevant to this case?
  2. What types of waivers (if any) are void by law and are any of them relevant to this case?
  3. What types of waivers (if any) are void as against public policy and are any of them relevant to this case?
For example, I have read that federal law makes it very hard for you to waive you right to sue for antitrust violations, which is the primary reason why Al Davis was able to sue the league.

If Kraft can't make out a claim which fits into a category where there is either no waiver or the waiver is considered void by the courts, the court will simply dismiss Kraft's lawsuit out of hand, citing his agreement not to sue.
 
I was hoping someone would start a thread on this topic (I was about to do so myself). It is unbelievable to me that this punishment has been levied by the NFL over something this trivial, and which I still maintain (as a physicist) that the pressure loss is easily explained by the Ideal Gas Law. Presumably Brady will file his own legal action (which I would expect to be successful), but that doesn't address the devastating loss of draft picks ( 1st and 4th) for the Patriots.

Can't address your question because I are an engineer not a lawyer.
However, given that clearly the Pats balls showed no evidence beyond Ideal Gas Law deflation, the entire reason for this fiasco is invalid. Pats & Brady punished for laws of physics.
 

Because they have, in general, waived their right to sue the league as part of their agreement to be a member club in the NFL.

The question is:

  1. What types of claims (if any) does the franchise agreement exempt from the waiver and are any of them relevant to this case?
  2. What types of waivers (if any) are void by law and are any of them relevant to this case?
  3. What types of waivers (if any) are void as against public policy and are any of them relevant to this case?
For example, I have read that federal law makes it very hard for you to waive you right to sue for antitrust violations, which is the primary reason why Al Davis was able to sue the league.

If Kraft can't make out a claim which fits into a category where there is either no waiver or the waiver is considered void by the courts, the court will simply dismiss Kraft's lawsuit out of hand, citing his agreement not to sue.

Thanks, this post was clear and concise (if only all posts were like this) and explained the matter perfectly.

It would seem to me the key issue is whether or not the waivers allow a lawsuit to get to the discovery stage. With the circus going on under Goodell I would think the League would be terrified of having to turn over their cell phones, records, etc. under discovery.
 
Wipe them out, all of them.
 
Agreed. The league was in need of major purge and I think it would be cathartic for all involved Pats hater or not if they got some people in there with some morals......and a brain.
 
I dunno i can't fault anyone for being pessimistic at this point given the situation and what has unfolded thus far.

I'm begging Kraft to let loose the dogs of war... to hell with the consequences. Sometimes in life, there are larger things at play than profit or appeasing business partners. All you leave this world with is your name and your reputation... Both of which are being dragged through the mud by an angry mob... even if this will hurt himself and the league financially, it's a matter of principle to stand against this egregious storm of **** being flung at them.

Don't misunderstand--pessimism is definitely smart. I was referring to posters stating the picks couldn't be appealed like that was a fact.

Agree completely with your second paragraph.
 
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Because they have, in general, waived their right to sue the league as part of their agreement to be a member club in the NFL.

The question is:


You can't waive rights or remedies that violate public policy. For example, permission slips that parents sign agreeing not to sue caretakers of their children for causing personal injury are absolutely void. You can't waive a remedy for someone else's negligence! Smart attorneys for the Patavand Brady will find the prohibited waivers.
  1. What types of claims (if any) does the franchise agreement exempt from the waiver and are any of them relevant to this case?
  2. What types of waivers (if any) are void by law and are any of them relevant to this case?
  3. What types of waivers (if any) are void as against public policy and are any of them relevant to this case?
For example, I have read that federal law makes it very hard for you to waive you right to sue for antitrust violations, which is the primary reason why Al Davis was able to sue the league.

If Kraft can't make out a claim which fits into a category where there is either no waiver or the waiver is considered void by the courts, the court will simply dismiss Kraft's lawsuit out of hand, citing his agreement not to sue.
 
I'm bumping this thread... because losing a first-round draft pick is just as bad as losing Brady for four games
 
I'm bumping this thread... because losing a first-round draft pick is just as bad as losing Brady for four games
It's worse in terms of the team. Not worse when you consider the hit to Brady's reputation and brand, but worse in terms of performance of the team going forward.
 
They gotta appeal those draft picks. We need them back. Imagine what could have been if we had a 1st rounder after the 2007 spygate ordeal

I would state it 'we need that 1st round draft pick back'.

Goodell can have his silly capriciously decided win if that gets our 1st rounder back. While not happy about it, I would accept the Patriots saying "while we do not believe we acted illegally, we accept the League's concern of unprofessional ball handling practices. We understand the league''s focus must heavily favor integrity at all cast. We accept the loss of the 4th round draft pick and fine". And with that the Emperor can keep the 4th rounder, keep the cash, but give us back the 1st rounder.

If the NFL can live with that I say the Patriots should take it. They can write off the losing of the 4th rounder as the cost of assuredly keeping that highly valuable 1st rounder. They then can let the Brady appeal play out, helping behind the scenes when possible, to get their pound of flesh against the league for it's F'd up action.
 
Why is it unlikely that the Patriots seek litigation, to address the loss in draft picks, if nothing else?
It's very common for people without much experience in civil litigation to conflate the legal system with intuitive notions of fairness or justice.

From the standpoint of "fairness", the Pats have been treated unfairly, obviously. The leaked damaging false information, the biased report, the unsound science, the forcing of the Pats to keep the true PSI secret while the damaging news stories were bruited about.

So Kraft as an owner can go storming into his attorney's office, and say "I've been treated wrongly, what legal recourse do I have".

Here is where it gets confusing: whether Kraft was treated unfairly or not has next to nothing to do with whether litigation is advisable. The lawyer actually won't particularly care whether Kraft was treated unfairly. He's there just to assess what will likely happen in litigation. He's looking at various arguments he can make to a judge or to a jury, he's examining all the contracts between the NFL and the Pats, he's looking at the NFL likely reactions, he's assessing vulnerabilities and cost of litigation. Once again, the lawyer DOES NOT CARE whether what happened was unfair or not.

The primary hurdle the lawyer will have is whether there is a claim at all. Do the Pats even have a right to appear in court? The NFL has had a lot of very experienced lawyers working very hard to make sure that they cannot be sued by a team at all. I have no idea whether the Pats have a way of working around that, maybe, given the extremity of the NFL's conduct at issue.

So first of all there will be a lot of legal wrangling as to whether the Pats are even allowed to sue. This will actually not cost too much, three or four million maybe (?), and will just be done mainly in lawyer's briefs. If the Pats lose there, they will just have lost some money and time (they might have to pay the NFL's lawyers fees, too).

What if the Pats win, so a court finds they can sue? Here is where the actual lawsuit begins.

I should mention actually a key issue here is venue: where, and also in what jurisdiction, will the suit be heard? If the Pats could guarantee the suit would be held in Boston, they'd be pretty confident. Unfortunately, the NFL his headquartered in .... New York. Most likely the NFL has contractual language that all suits have to be heard in New York. In New York, the media, the jury pool, any state judge's constituency, will all be mainly Jets fans who revile the Pats. Can the Pats get a fair hearing there? I have no idea where the suit would be heard, I'm just saying, that's a key consideration.

Now, you say, you're a physicist. You can look at the mess of ridiculous protocols and sloppy readings and see that clearly one cannot say from that there was tampering. You also understand the preposterousness of even arguing about whether someone deflated by .5 psi given all the other uncertainties. So, based on, let's say, a minimum of eight years education in physics, you're confident that the Wells report is scientific nonsense (as am I).

But that's irrelevant. In most jurisdictions, the average education of a juror is somewhere around 10th grade level. That's general education. The average science knowledge of an attorney is probably that at best. Unless you have extensive experience with attorneys, I guarantee that you cannot begin to appreciate how little science they know.

So what a physicist thinks of the science is completely irrelevant, legally. Kraft can hire physicists to say one thing, the NFL can hire others to say something else. The jury is going to make a decision based on which attorney has the better smile most of the time.

Not literally the "smile" but juries mainly care about "credibility". They can't understand the logic or science, so they go by demeanor, body language, things like that. The attorney by the way is going to assess how credible the Pats witnesses will seem to a jury. How credible do you think the Pats witnesses are going to be to someone who doesn't understand the science? How do you think a jury would react to McNally's explanations of his texts under cross examination? These are the kinds of issues the lawyer is thinking about - not whether is McNally is telling the truth, the lawyer doesn't care, but whether McNally will sound credible to a bunch of people with minimal science background.

Again, I don't know how much experience you have dealing with people not educated in science. You probably expect that you can educate them. Maybe, but what about when the other side is trying to do the same thing? Not so easy. Have you actually tried educating a non-technical person about some scientific debate, by the way?

Next, non-lawyers typically have an image of the legal system as being something where both sides go to trial, present their best arguments, and that's that. But actually 98% of what happens in a civil trial happens before trial, mainly in discovery. I've actually already made a post about this, I'm just repeating it. Basically, in discovery, the opposing side will try and argue that they must get every scrap of information from the organization. This means long, annoying depositions of every QB, every player, every Pats employee who could have seen deflation. The NFL will do its best to schedule these depositions at the most inconvenient times, in the most inconvenient venues. How would you like a 4-day deposition of Tom Brady scheduled just before the playoffs? What do you do when Brady flies out to where the deposition is, then the deposition is canceled and rescheduled for the next week? And then that happens again? And that happens with Belichick too? The NFL could destroy a season with tactical deposition-taking alone if it wanted, if it got lucky with the judge. (This shouldn't happen but might).

Now, we've all seen how McNally's life has been messed up because he joked around in texts. Do you think he is the only Patriot who joked around in texts? The NFL lawyers will try and subpoena every text, personal and otherwise, from many different Patriots and employees. They'll get a lot more info than Wells was able to, most likely.

At a minimum, they'll get all the financial information on the Patriots, every deal, every contract.

Wells of course didn't have transcripts on his interrogations so he could spin them how he wanted. The NFL would likely demand video depositions of everyone. These are not always granted, and if they are, they are not always leaked. However, if they are granted (which is not uncommon, depends on a lot of factors), and if they are leaked or are made available, they are virtually always embarrassing. Attorneys have years and years of experience asking impossible-to-answer questions which, no matter how answered, can destroy a life or at least subject a person to a lot of distraction. Clinton, Deen, Bill Gates - all these folks wound up getting mocked for a long time, and Deen lost her career, over artfully phrased questions. And these were businessmen or lawyers themselves being deposed. You think an equipment manager can do better?

Can Brady keep his texts, emails, and phone records private? Don't count on it. Or on Belichick or anyone else.

The financial cost could be significant as well. I would guess that if a suit actually went to trial (most are dismissed or settle long before) then the cost to the Patriots of a suit, just in attorneys fees and litigation expenses, would be $50M, maybe more depending on how things go. (Worse case, Pats pay NFL attorneys fees, well north of $100M here in toto). This is very complex stuff: antitrust, defamation, conspiracy, tortious interference, labor law, NFL law, and of course all the science. Look, the Wells report alone cost $5M I would guess, and that was just one side doing a fairly short investigation. With two sides, both teams filing motions at each other, it's a lot more. Of course, the cost in distraction is hard to calculate.

Back to the beginning, you might say, well $50M to win $500M is a good investment, right? But whether the Pats can actually win, well, I have no idea actually.

That said, in this particular case, maybe litigation is the right route you know. I have never seen or heard of anything as outrageous in sports history as this, where a governing body conspires with a law firm to defame and defraud a member team for no apparent reason other than personal animus and to avoid admitting its own mistakes.

I want to be completely clear: I am not expert on the legal issues here, these are general thoughts that might or might not apply to the particular case, but they just illustrate the kinds of issues that lawyers and clients might consider in deciding whether to litigate.
 
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It's very common for people without much experience in civil litigation to conflate the legal system with intuitive notions of fairness or justice.

From the standpoint of "fairness", the Pats have been treated unfairly, obviously. The leaked damaging false information, the biased report, the unsound science, the forcing of the Pats to keep the true PSI secret while the damaging news stories were bruited about.

So Kraft as an owner can go storming into his attorney's office, and say "I've been treated wrongly, what legal recourse do I have".

Here is where it gets confusing: whether Kraft was treated unfairly or not has next to nothing to do with whether litigation is advisable. The lawyer actually won't particularly care whether Kraft was treated unfairly. He's there just to assess what will likely happen in litigation. He's looking at various arguments he can make to a judge or to a jury, he's examining all the contracts between the NFL and the Pats, he's looking at the NFL likely reactions, he's assessing vulnerabilities and cost of litigation. Once again, the lawyer DOES NOT CARE whether what happens was unfair or not.

Now, you say, you're a physicist. You can look at the mess of ridiculous protocols and sloppy readings and see that clearly one cannot say from that there was tampering. You also understand the preposterousness of even arguing about whether someone deflated by .5 psi given all the other uncertainties. So, based on, let's say, a minimum of eight years education in physics, you're confident that the Wells report is scientific nonsense (as am I).

But that's irrelevant. In most jurisdictions, the average education of a juror is somewhere around 10th grade level. That's general education. The average science knowledge of an attorney is probably that at best. Unless you have extensive experience with attorneys, I guarantee that you cannot begin to appreciate how little science they know.

So what a physicist thinks of the science is completely irrelevant, legally. Kraft can hire physicists to say one thing, the NFL can hire others to say something else. The jury is going to make a decision based on which attorney has the better smile most of the time.

Again, I don't know how much experience you have dealing with people not educated in science. You probably expect that you can educate them. Maybe, but what about when the other side is trying to do the same thing? Not so easy.

Next, non-lawyers typically have an image of the legal system as being something where both sides go to trial, present their best arguments, and that's that. But actually 98% of what happens in a civil trial happens before trial, mainly in discovery. I've actually already made a post about this, I'm just repeating it. Basically, in discovery, the opposing side will try and argue that they must get every scrap of information from the organization. This means long, annoying depositions of every QB, every player, every Pats employee who could have seen deflation. The NFL will do its best to schedule these depositions at the most inconvenient times, in the most inconvenient venues. How would you like a 4-day deposition of Tom Brady scheduled just before the playoffs? What do you do when Brady flies out to where the deposition is, then the deposition is canceled and rescheduled for the next week? And then that happens again? And that happens with Belichick too? The NFL could destroy a season with tactical deposition-taking alone if it wanted, if it got lucky with the judge. (This shouldn't happen but might).

Now, we've all seen how McNally's life has been messed up because he joked around in texts. Do you think he is the only Patriot who joked around in texts? The NFL lawyers will try and subpoena every text, personal and otherwise, from many different Patriots and employees. They'll get a lot more info than Wells was able to, most likely.

At a minimum, they'll get all the financial information on the Patriots, every deal, every contract.

Wells of course didn't have transcripts on his interrogations so he could spin them how he wanted. The NFL would likely demand video depositions of everyone. These are not always granted, and if they are, they are not always leaked. However, if they are granted (which is not uncommon, depends on a lot of factors), and if they are leaked or are made available, they are virtually always embarrassing. Attorneys have years and years of experience asking impossible-to-answer questions which, no matter how answered, can destroy a life or at least subject a person to a lot of distraction. Clinton, Deen, Bill Gates - all these folks wound up getting mocked for a long time, and Deen lost her career, over artfully phrased questions. And these were businessmen or lawyers themselves being deposed. You think an equipment manager can do better?

Can Brady keep his texts, emails, and phone records private? Don't count on it. Or on Belichick or anyone else.

The financial cost could be significant as well. I would guess that if a suit actually went to trial (most are dismissed or settle long before) then the cost to the Patriots of a suit, just in attorneys fees and litigation expenses, would be $50M, maybe more depending on how things go. This is very complex stuff: antitrust, defamation, conspiracy, tortious interference, labor law, NFL law, and of course all the science. Look, the Wells report alone cost $5M I would guess, and that was just one side doing a fairly short investigation. With two sides, both teams filing motions at each other, it's a lot more. Of course, the cost in distraction is hard to calculate.

Back to the beginning, you might way, well $50M to win $500M is a good investment, right? But whether the Pats can actually win, well, I have no idea actually. It's pretty complicated and uncertain.

That said, in this particular case, maybe litigation is the right route you know. I have never seen or heard of anything as outrageous in sports law as this, where a governing body conspires with a law firm to defame and defraud a member team for no apparent reason other than personal animus.

I definitely am not expert on the legal issues here, these are general thoughts that might or might not apply to the particular case, but they just illustrate the kinds of issues that lawyers and clients might consider in deciding whether to litigate.
Wouldn't the Pats have the same opportunity to do the same to Goodell and his henchmen and expose all the dirt since he took office. I don't think that would be pleasant for him and his supporters either.
 
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