What is our plan for ILB?

[TheRainMaker]

Rain,

I think Gary guyton, and the likes of Chad brown would like to have a word with wozzy that they were passed over for being the worst LB back ups..

Guyton was so hyped by many back in the day. Media was just so happy because he ran a 4.5 or something like that. Shawn Crable was also pretty famous, but then quickly became famous for the wrong reasons - his odd shaped legs.

 

[Real fan 02]

Guyton was so hyped by many back in the day. Media was just so happy because he ran a 4.5 or something like that. Shawn Crable was also pretty famous, but then quickly became famous for the wrong reasons - his odd shaped legs.

Shawn Crable how could I forget... guy had some of the skinniest legs ever seen on a LB and was hardly ever available as well.. guy was so fast that he ended playing inside.. remember

 

[Wozzy]

The Patriots defense was good because of the additions of Spillane and Williams providing excellent run support. When they were out, the defense was soft as Charmin. Ellis is adequate as long as he has guys like Spillane doing the dirty work.

Elliss wasn’t the new middle LB when Spillane got hurt, Gibbens was… and he wasn’t good. Elliss played the weakside role on thr defense. Yet people here are whining because they lost Gibbens as a backup.

Arguing over fringe-practice squad LB's who will be lucky to even make an NFL team is just a waste of your time - especially with the poster you were getting into it with.

I don’t know what player or poster you are referring to.

 

[Real fan 02]

Guyton was so hyped by many back in the day. Media was just so happy because he ran a 4.5 or something like that. Shawn Crable was also pretty famous, but then quickly became famous for the wrong reasons - his odd shaped legs.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/48845555/new-england-patriots-qb-drake-maye-josh-mcdaniels-system-2026-season

 

[mgteich]

There is no hole. And who is “less expensive?”

These vets are going to wait until camp begins and someone suffers an injury at the ILB position. They’re not signing for peanuts now.

Yup, waiting is the key. Not! That way if there is no ILB injury happens until the season starts, we won't have the veteran backup that we will need.

 

[mgteich]

Most think that SOMEONE out of the many backups will step up if need to take the place of Gibbens and his reps. OK, let us presume that the competition does produce one competent backup. Who is taking the reps of Tavai and Mapu?

It seems that we are likely to have one backup ILB that we should be able to count on this year.

Last year, Vrabel did very, very well to have backups Gibbens and Durden step up to their roles in the front seven.

 

[Wozzy]

Yup, waiting is the key. Not! That way if there is no ILB injury happens until the season starts, we won't have the veteran backup that we will need.

Huh? I said most of these vets would wait until someone gets hurt in camp to maximize their leverage.

Pretty sure they're not signing now for less just because some Pats fans on a forum want it really really bad.

Some teams middle starting LB'er gets hurt in camp, these guys can ask for a lot more.

 

[Wozzy]

Most think that SOMEONE out the many backups will step up if need to take the place of Gibbens and his reps. OK, let us presume that the competition does produce one competent back. Who is taking the reps of Tavai and Mapu?

Tavai wasn't competent... neither was Gibbens for that matter.

Mapu? The guy played special teams only, they need to find a personal protector for the punt unit... that's not hard.

It seems that we are likely to have one backup ILB that we should be able to count on this year.

Maybe two or more... last year they didn't have one good ILB backup.... so by default it's already better.

Last year, Vrabel did very, very well to have backups Gibbens and Durden step up to their roles in the front seven.

Durden played hard, Gibbens was a jag. The defense was noticeably worse with Gibbens at middle LBer.

 

[rkarp1]

give me a BACKUP LB that due to injury in front of him, plays 100% of the defensive snaps, plus ST snaps, and the team goes 3-1 with him in the lineup. while the back up is not at the same level as the player ahead of him, in his first 2 games he racks up 20+ tackles. just to spice things up, Milt Williams and Khyris Tonga won't play those weeks.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I dont think Gonzalez is going to be renewed this season. I see him as a defensive tone-setter salary wise, being the highest paid player on that side of ball - pure speculation ofc, but he strikes my as a non-team break kind of player, which is fine given he is the best at his position

So we can and should use the Tag on him before making sure he "deserves" that kind of money. Availability is the name of the game here, consistent excellence being also expected

So, besides AJ Brown, what's the deal of holding so much money?

For years here, i hear about rolling cap space, but it also is being misunderstood. A 1 year cap rollout allows for one year of splurging, but doesnt guarantee a long term contract being easier to sign. The values return to normal, the rollout is only partial and they are non-cumulative. It was created for a team that was bad and poor to turn it around to attract players easier with more money.

2 years in a row with money to spend is not an optimal economical decision in roster contructing. This year, for me, would be very easy to correct our by far biggest weakness (LB corps)

I think DaBruinz already did a better job of outlining the case for keeping $$$ available than I can, and I agree with his take.

On Gonzalez I have really mixed feelings. I agree that he's not a " give them a break" guy, he's going to want to maximize his deal. He's a great player, and I don't want to lose him, but given the way signings are taking place around the league I have different takes that depend upon what he's asking for. If he wants around 35/per to be the highest paid CB I think they can get that done. However, if he's looking for a Myles Garrett or Will Anderson kind of deal 40-50 per then screw that. Either let him play out his deal or trade him for a 1st plus and draft a replacement high.

I don't believe you can build championship teams with 2 guys eating up 40-50%of the salary cap, so the only player I'm giving that kind of money to is Maye. If that means losing other great players then so be it, they will just have to figure out how to replace those guys.

 

[rkarp1]

I think DaBruinz already did a better job of outlining the case for keeping $$$ available than I can, and I agree with his take.

On Gonzalez I have really mixed feelings. I agree that he's not a " give them a break" guy, he's going to want to maximize his deal. He's a great player, and I don't want to lose him, but given the way signings are taking place around the league I have different takes that depend upon what he's asking for. If he wants around 35/per to be the highest paid CB I think they can get that done. However, if he's looking for a Myles Garrett or Will Anderson kind of deal 40-50 per then screw that. Either let him play out his deal or trade him for a 1st plus and draft a replacement high.

I don't believe you can build championship teams with 2 guys eating up 40-50%of the salary cap, so the only player I'm giving that kind of money to is Maye. If that means losing other great players then so be it, they will just have to figure out how to replace those guys.

draft well
thanks Eliot Wolf

 

[Huckleberry1]

draft well
thanks Eliot Wolf

Not sure what your point is?

 

[Wozzy]

draft well
thanks Eliot Wolf

Like 2024?

Thanks Vrabel and Cowden.

 

[Wozzy]

give me a BACKUP LB that due to injury in front of him, plays 100% of the defensive snaps, plus ST snaps, and the team goes 3-1 with him in the lineup. while the back up is not at the same level as the player ahead of him, in his first 2 games he racks up 20+ tackles. just to spice things up, Milt Williams and Khyris Tonga won't play those weeks.

Tom Brady once threw for 505 yards and 3 TD’s in a Super Bowl… he lost the game because it’s a team sport.

Gibbens playing a lot is not the same as playing well. The run defense didn’t turn to sht while he was starting at MLB because a defensive end/DT missed a couple games.

It stunk because Gibbens wasn’t good at that job, he also wasn’t fast or quick enough to do Ellis’s job when he missed time. This is why they let Gibbens leave despite owning the right of first refusal and the ability to match any offer.

They brought in Muma right after the Buffalo debacle last season, they draft Obiazor and brought in some UDFA’s. Younger, better, cheaper….

 

[DaBruinz]

Not sure what your point is?

He thinks that Wolf is responsible for the drafting the last 2 years. He wants to ignore the fact that Vrabel has the final say and that Cowden and Streicher have as much input on the decision as Wolf does.

 

[Wozzy]

He thinks that Wolf is responsible for the drafting the last 2 years. He wants to ignore the fact that Vrabel has the final say and that Cowden and Streicher have as much input on the decision as Wolf does.

Or that Wolf has been here since 2020 when Bob Kraft announced to the world personnel was becoming a collaboration.

 

[Huckleberry1]

He thinks that Wolf is responsible for the drafting the last 2 years. He wants to ignore the fact that Vrabel has the final say and that Cowden and Streicher have as much input on the decision as Wolf does.

Thanks. That clarifies it.

As far as Wolf goes:

1) I don't blame any of Belichick's decisions on him, he was a subordinate and Belichick was a control freak. A great control freak overall, but still a control freak, and he did leave the franchise in terrible shape, but I'll take the 6 Lombardi's for that every time.

2) He gets the credit and blame for their 2025 offseason. We have no idea what role Mayo played, but Wolf was still in charge, thus the credit and blame. He gets credit for Maye, and a ton of **** for everything else. And while Maye was the right pick, he wasn't the " no brainer" many here say he was because many of them wanted Harrison Jr., Alt, or the 3 1st rounders. I know this because I argued ad nauseum for the QB, specifically Maye. It was however clearly the right pick.

3) Technically Wolf still has final say, but really Vrabel does, because Wolf will defer to him in the end. And Vrabel brought both the clarity that kind of players he wanted, and what kind of team he wanted to build, as well as two key figures in Cowden and Streicher. Wolf has done a great job of fitting into this team structure, instead of being a control freak that must be in charge.

 

[rkarp1]

Thanks. That clarifies it.

As far as Wolf goes:

1) I don't blame any of Belichick's decisions on him, he was a subordinate and Belichick was a control freak. A great control freak overall, but still a control freak, and he did leave the franchise in terrible shape, but I'll take the 6 Lombardi's for that every time.

2) He gets the credit and blame for their 2025 offseason. We have no idea what role Mayo played, but Wolf was still in charge, thus the credit and blame. He gets credit for Maye, and a ton of **** for everything else. And while Maye was the right pick, he wasn't the " no brainer" many here say he was because many of them wanted Harrison Jr., Alt, or the 3 1st rounders. I know this because I argued ad nauseum for the QB, specifically Maye. It was however clearly the right pick.

3) Technically Wolf still has final say, but really Vrabel does, because Wolf will defer to him in the end. And Vrabel brought both the clarity that kind of players he wanted, and what kind of team he wanted to build, as well as two key figures in Cowden and Streicher. Wolf has done a great job of fitting into this team structure, instead of being a control freak that must be in charge.

like I said, thanks ELiot.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

He thinks that Wolf is responsible for the drafting the last 2 years. He wants to ignore the fact that Vrabel has the final say and that Cowden and Streicher have as much input on the decision as Wolf does.

Cowden and Streicher have Vrabel's ear and have more influence than Wolf. Wolf is a feel good guy, always giving "appreciation speeches". That is fine, if Kraft wants a feel good guy I am fine with that, as long as Wolf is not involved in any actual drafting strategy or decisions.

 

[Wozzy]

Thanks. That clarifies it.

As far as Wolf goes:

1) I don't blame any of Belichick's decisions on him, he was a subordinate and Belichick was a control freak. A great control freak overall, but still a control freak, and he did leave the franchise in terrible shape, but I'll take the 6 Lombardi's for that every time.

Bob said personnel was changing entering the 2021 off-season at the owner’s meeting. Bill said personnel decisions were made differently the last few years he was there.

There were reports BB didn’t want Mac Jones, wanted to sign his own guys like Jakobi Meyers over Juju but got overruled. It certainly wasn’t Bill’s idea to switch to a West Coast offense in 2022, he didn't respect the system and considered it "easy to defend," and there were reports Wolf was selecting guys who fit that system before they played it. Considering they switched to the west coast offense in 2024 the moment Bill was gone it doesn’t seem like such a stretch.

I think the dysfunction the last few years came from a power struggle between the owner’s son and the old coach. It seems there were coaches and people on staff trying to serve two masters... and that never works.