Vrabel working out Max I at ASU pro day

RxJock1120 said:

True, but who was the last great Edge we drafted.

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Tre Flowers (4/3 end), Deatrich Wise (3 technique) both 4th rounders. Different types of edge players but very good.

RxJock1120 said:

That was 14 years ago! Might as well bring up Willie McGinest if we are going that far back.

We also drafted Nate Solder, Matt Light, Logan Mankins...Bruce Armstrong, John Hannah just to name a few, if we arent taking timing into consideration.

The point was none of these guys were drafted within the last decade.

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I agree with you! Is why I mentioned Chandler Jones! To your points although we made superbowls and won superbowls the past 14 seasons..( with Brady of course) the drafting from say 2017- 2024 had been bad.. the fact that Chandler Jones has been the only drafted edge guy in that span is putrid..

Drake is the only good thing that came out the 2024 draft..

Real fan 02 said:

I agree with you! Is why I mentioned Chandler Jones! To your points although we made superbowls and won superbowls the past 14 seasons..( with Brady of course) the drafting from say 2017- 2024 had been bad.. the fact that Chandler Jones has been the only drafted edge guy in that span is putrid..

Drake is the only good thing that came out the 2024 draft..

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I’m a Belichick admirer, but he was in decline in his later years here. I think his vision of the team he wanted to build didn’t matter for so many year because he had Brady that after Brady left he made poor choices in constructing both his coaching staff and their roster. And the coaching staff he had didn’t help him build the roster very well either.

And the less said about the Mayo interregnum the better.

So there was a decade or so without a good coherent vision of what the team should look like, until Vrabel came on board.

I think Vrabes has a good vision of the team he wants to build. Last year we saw it on the defense. This year it looks like we may see the offense start to emerge. I’m beginning to think that the draft may go heavy on the offensive side of the ball, and very possibly OL before WR. My big question is whether there will be any players available when we pick, on either side of the ball, that are ready to step in and start as rookies. The other question is whether we will move around by trading either up or down. I’m pretty much expecting that the reaction to our draft this year will be similar to the reaction to FA, in a word “meh”. And of course the results will really become apparent only around midseason, or even in a year or two. We will just have to wait and see.

I think the best way to look at picks is to have a proxy list of the players you think might be available when they pick and go by that.

Real fan 02 said:

Drake is the only good thing that came out the 2024 draft..

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Ain't that the truth! Sad from our perspective, but definitely spot on.

n1997y said:

I’m a Belichick admirer, but he was in decline in his later years here. I think his vision of the team he wanted to build didn’t matter for so many year because he had Brady that after Brady left he made poor choices in constructing both his coaching staff and their roster. And the coaching staff he had didn’t help him build the roster very well either.

And the less said about the Mayo interregnum the better.

So there was a decade or so without a good coherent vision of what the team should look like, until Vrabel came on board.

I think Vrabes has a good vision of the team he wants to build. Last year we saw it on the defense. This year it looks like we may see the offense start to emerge. I’m beginning to think that the draft may go heavy on the offensive side of the ball, and very possibly OL before WR. My big question is whether there will be any players available when we pick, on either side of the ball, that are ready to step in and start as rookies. The other question is whether we will move around by trading either up or down. I’m pretty much expecting that the reaction to our draft this year will be similar to the reaction to FA, in a word “meh”. And of course the results will really become apparent only around midseason, or even in a year or two. We will just have to wait and see.

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Very good points! I absolutely appreciate BB/brady/RK collectively for what they all contributed to give us for so long.. so one in my opinion can't be synonymous without the other. But you hit it right on the money as usual N..

As having stability at the most singular important position in football makes a teams decisions alot easier and thus was the reasons why we could sustain draft bust after bust for a period of time.

It caught up with us in 2019...

Yeah Vrabel I absolutely love his formula, his style, the way he empowers his player's..how he's grown in his own words from his experiences.. he's a combination of BB& bill Parcells.. he's a modern day coach.. so much to love about coach..

I believe the organization needed Vrabel and he needed them.. so it was jsut a great match.

This current patiots team has similar traits of past patiots teams. Most notably starting with the most important elements coaching and QB..

Your right the defense was the anchor last season.. became nearly dominant at times in the postseason.

As Vrabel said the team learned from winning as opposed to losing this past season and this will only help them going forward. I expect Drake and the offense to be even better next season with a smash mouth running game that will set up the pass..

I'm really high on Reggie Gilliam at FB.. and love his attitude.

Yeah we are picking 31 so I said find the best edge available and take him. Get him in the building, the program and develop him to be a week 1 starter.. edge is vital

Having the pass rush helps the offense it allows for plus 50 field position, sack, and fumble recovery with this secondary it will be ample opportunity for INTs and pick 6s..

RxJock1120 said:

Ain't that the truth! Sad from our perspective, but definitely spot on.

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Yes sir!! What a pathetic draft.. who's left beside Drake cadean Wallace? Ugh

Wozzy said:

Tre Flowers (4/3 end), Deatrich Wise (3 technique) both 4th rounders. Different types of edge players but very good.

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Chandler Jones was the last and best edge we had since Willie.. Jones became a monster when we traded him to Arizona..

Wozzy said:

Tre Flowers (4/3 end), Deatrich Wise (3 technique) both 4th rounders. Different types of edge players but very good.

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Trey was 11 years ago and never recorded more than 7.5 sacks a year, had a hell of a playoff run in 2017. We wouldn't have won the SB without his timely sack, but then got overpaid by Detroit and didn't do much else.

Deatrick was never more than a serviceable starter. Also, never recorded more than 7.5 sacks and besides 2022 never had more than 4.5.

Neither guy was what I would call a great edge player.

Back to my original point that I wouldn't draft an OL in the 1st, if we are looking for a serviceable OL there should be no reason why we couldn't find one in the 2nd or 3rd Rd. An great edge player is harder to find and a bigger priority. But again, we could do a hell of a lot worse than big Max.

RxJock1120 said:

Trey was 11 years ago and never recorded more than 7.5 sacks a year, had a hell of a playoff run in 2017. We wouldn't have won the SB without his timely sack, but then got overpaid by Detroit and didn't do much else.

Deatrick was never more than a serviceable starter. Also, never recorded more than 7.5 sacks and besides 2022 never had more than 4.5.

Neither guy was what I would call a great edge player.

Back to my original point that I wouldn't draft an OL in the 1st, if we are looking for a serviceable OL there should be no reason why we couldn't find one in the 2nd or 3rd Rd. An great edge player is harder to find and a bigger priority. But again, we could do a hell of a lot worse than big Max.

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Agreed! Edge, Edge and more Edge.. when we had Willie during the first dynasty we played a 3-4.. we need Edge at 31 and then dip back in the rounds 2-7 to get another one I say..

We will also have UDFA and vets cut during camp/pre season.. so many opportunities to add to the roster.

The key is getting to 90 and coach every one up and seeing who sticks!

RxJock1120 said:

Trey was 11 years ago and never recorded more than 7.5 sacks a year, had a hell of a playoff run in 2017. We wouldn't have won the SB without his timely sack, but then got overpaid by Detroit and didn't do much else.

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Trey Flowers suffered a career ending injury in Detroit that interrupted his career arc.

RxJock1120 said:

Deatrick was never more than a serviceable starter. Also, never recorded more than 7.5 sacks and besides 2022 never had more than 4.5.

Neither guy was what I would call a great edge player.

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Wise was a three technique with unique length that made him a tough player to adjust to, especially in the red zone. He had really wide wingspan and could block out the sun and swat passes. He wasn’t amazing but he was a good chess piece.

RxJock1120 said:

Back to my original point that I wouldn't draft an OL in the 1st, if we are looking for a serviceable OL there should be no reason why we couldn't find one in the 2nd or 3rd Rd. An great edge player is harder to find and a bigger priority. But again, we could do a hell of a lot worse than big Max.

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Harold Landry was a 2nd rounder, and Pro Bowler. Ponder might be the future, he was an UDFA. They spent a grip on Milton Williams and now Dre’Mont Jones. They also have Swinson there.

Tackle seems to be more of a priority with Mose’s age and Campbell’s shaky hold on the starting spot.

Danielle Hunter had the third most sacks in the NFL last season and has made multiple All Pro and Pro Bowl teams. He was a third rounder. Just because the Pats haven’t prioritized edge in the first round doesn’t make it fact.

Offensive tackles are harder to find than edge players… there’s fewer of them in every draft. Like I said… god makes fewer 6’6” 320 athletes with wide wingspans… it’s simple math.

Real fan 02 said:

Yes sir!! What a pathetic draft.. who's left beside Drake cadean Wallace? Ugh

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No one and I don't think Wallace sticks for another year.

But honestly from what we saw Drake do last year it was all worth it!

pazrul72 said:

I find this an interesting thought mostly because I disagree they want to be a gap heavy power offense. I do agree the current personnel on the right side fit that but I think that was more about having too many holes to fill so take what you have and what's available for stop gaps. Between Campbell, Wilson, AVT, and Henderson I think we have a pretty clear indication they want to have a fast athletic zone based running game. It's not how I would build it, but it can work if Henderson is the kind of back that gets 3 yards, 5 yards, -2 yards, 60 yard TD.

With that in mind, and assuming your assessment of the potential draftees abilities is accurate, then it makes perfect sense to me to draft Ihearn at 31. Have him sit, learn, and grow behind Moses for a year then you have 4 of the 5 pieces needed to have that young mobile line. Draft an Uber athletic RG with an early pick next year and now your line is finished with some late round depth for the kind of player you want. I would want a oline with upside that needs time to develop taken every year in round 4, 5 or 6 just to keep the pipeline stocked.

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The Erhardt-Perkins (EP) system is not inherently limited to a single run scheme like Wide Zone or Power Gap. However, historically, it is often associated with a "smash-mouth" power running philosophy. I have yet see any modern masters of EP successfully and consistently run zone. Belichick and Patricia tried. And let's face it, I know of only 1 person who truly runs it - Josh McD. I don't think Josh can pull it off like what Kyle Shanahan has done to the West Coast.

upstater1 said:

We have struggled badly to find worthy OL in recent years. We had to expend the 4th pick just to get one. We are ZERO for 10 in finding OL on the second or third day of the draft. Caeden Wallace was a 3rd rounder.

If we don't take one when one is available this year, there is no guarantee we will find one in next year's draft when Morgan Moses will be 37 for the following season.

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Wilson, Owenu are 2 on the current OL. So it can't be zero.

imahobgoblin said:

The Erhardt-Perkins (EP) system is not inherently limited to a single run scheme like Wide Zone or Power Gap. However, historically, it is often associated with a "smash-mouth" power running philosophy. I have yet see any modern masters of EP successfully and consistently run zone. Belichick and Patricia tried. And let's face it, I know of only 1 person who truly runs it - Josh McD. I don't think Josh can pull it off like what Kyle Shanahan has done to the West Coast.

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I wasn't talking scheme I was talking personnel and the type of players they are pretty clearly in my mind targeting. I love power smash mouth football, 04 Corey Dillion is my favorite RB because you could just see in the 4th quarter we knew we were running, they knew we were running, and the other guys just quit cuz they didn't want to tackle him anymore.

They aren't signing and drafting big powerful movers of men for a power rushing attack. Owenu despite being our best o lineman is likely gone next year because he isn't athletic and mobile. The profile of guys they are adding values quicks and athleticism over size and power, the RB they drafted is about speed, hitting a hole and taking it to the house.

I don't think EP or West Coast or whatever scheme makes a difference to the kind of plays you can call. We've seen Josh run everything from a traditional I formation to two TE to spread all out of EP. EP is just the way plays are communicated, instead of 13 Comanche x dig y crosser z go it's simply called crossers. It's the exact same play with the exact same goals just with more flexibility to read coverage and adjust routes based on the coverage. Based on what I've seen from Vrable I think he values hitting the big play with zone run philosophy over the consistency of being able to move the ball with a power run philosophy and his draft and signings back that up.

Real fan 02 said:

Yeah Vrabel I absolutely love his formula, his style, the way he empowers his player's..how he's grown in his own words from his experiences.. he's a combination of BB& bill Parcells.. he's a modern day coach.. so much to love about coach..

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Vrabel is getting noticed. There are at least a half dozen versions of that video on YouTube. There’s easily a half million views across all of them. I wonder how many of those are players at all levels from hs to pro trying to figure out what Vrabes is telling him. I’d bet Max got some calls from his friends asking about what he was doing.

Only problem is there are probably now 31 teams expecting the Pats to draft him.

Real fan 02 said:

… I expect Drake and the offense to be even better next season with a smash mouth running game that will set up the pass..

I'm really high on Reggie Gilliam at FB.. and love his attitude.

Yeah we are picking 31 so I said find the best edge available and take him. Get him in the building, the program and develop him to be a week 1 starter.. edge is vital

Having the pass rush helps the offense it allows for plus 50 field position, sack, and fumble recovery with this secondary it will be ample opportunity for INTs and pick 6s..

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I’m more and more enthusiastic about the idea of a smash mouth running offense. I’m even ready to see a road grader OL drafted before edge to help make it happen. Although I’d love to see a dominant edge player on the roster too.

I really love both the Gilliam and Hill signings, especially for what it says about the attitude on offense.

I think Vrabel wants to play smash mouth football on both sides of the ball, and I’m okay with that.

Huckleberry1 said:

I think the best way to look at picks is to have a proxy list of the players you think might be available when they pick and go by that.

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Your question got me thinking - so I just went through 20 mock drafts and as a consensus the following could most likely be the players available at Picks 31and 63 (Sorry for it being such a long post)

Pick 31 Players who should be available but will be gone by pick 63 (in order by least likely available to most likely)

OT
Blake Miller Clemson
Max Iheanachor Arizona State
Austin Barber Florida

WR
K.C. Conception Texas A & M
Denzel Boston Washington
Bernie Bernard Alabama

TE
Eli Stowers Vanderbilt

Edge
Keldrick Faulk Auburn
Akheem Mesidor Miami
Cashius Howell Texas A & M
T.J. Parker Clemson
Zion Young Missouri

Safety
Dillon Thieneman Oregon
McNeil-Warren Toledo

LB
Jacob Rodriquez Texas Tech


Pick 63 Players who should be available but gone by pick 95 (in order by least likely available to most likely)

OG
Chase Bisontis Texas A & M
Emmanuel Pregnon Oregon
Gennings Dunker Iowa

WR
Malachi Fields Notre Dame
Chris Brazzell Tennessee

TE
Sam Roush Stanford
Max Klare Ohio State

Edge
Malachi Lawrence UCF
Jaishawn Barham Michigan
Keyron Crawford Auburn

Safety
A.J. Haulcy LSU
Jalon Kilgore South Carolina

LB
Jake Golday Cincinnati
C.J. Allen Georgia


If you can only pick one from each group - who would they be. (Or would you trade to pick up one more ?) Interesting dilemma

n1997y said:

Vrabel is getting noticed. There are at least a half dozen versions of that video on YouTube. There’s easily a half million views across all of them. I wonder how many of those are players at all levels from hs to pro trying to figure out what Vrabes is telling him. I’d bet Max got some calls from his friends asking about what he was doing.

Only problem is there are probably now 31 teams expecting the Pats to draft him.

I’m more and more enthusiastic about the idea of a smash mouth running offense. I’m even ready to see a road grader OL drafted before edge to help make it happen. Although I’d love to see a dominant edge player on the roster too.

I really love both the Gilliam and Hill signings, especially for what it says about the attitude on offense.

I think Vrabel wants to play smash mouth football on both sides of the ball, and I’m okay with that.

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It sounds counter- intuitive but a smash-mouth offense is any qb's best friend.
I love the Gilliam signing.
If you can dominate with a power running game, it makes it much easier to have a
high- caliber passing attack.

Alex Barth and Michael Hurley on strategy at 31:

patfanken said:

Wilson, Owenu are 2 on the current OL. So it can't be zero.

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Onwenu was 6 yrs ago. Wilson remains to be seen