Sony Michel recovering from foot surgery

varjao · Jun 14, 2020

2 procedures already, he better save his 1st round money because he can become Stevan Ridley 2.0

One-If-By-Sea · Jun 14, 2020

Anyone who does not like Michel did not watch Maroney. Maroney could not find a hole for his life - he had no idea where the play was happening. We had reports that BB was personally tutoring Maroney so he could hit the hole - that did not work. Sony hits the hole and runs hard.

Concerning "yards after contact", BB requires a running back to wrap up the ball on contact. It is much harder to run with both arms over the ball, but you fumble less. Remember BJGE who did not fumble in 4 seasons with the Partriots but promptly fumbled five time in two seasons with the Bengals, and was cut. Wonder why? Because BB thinks "yards after contact" are less important than fumbles. Posters on PatsFans think that fumbles are less important than "yards after contact". Remember when everyone said that the Patriots fumble less because the Pats play with deflated balls? Haha. When the balls were proven to be at league standards the Pats still fumbled less. BUT we have less "yards after contact" so, of course, PatsFans declares Sony is a bust.

Chubb singularly lost the game to the Pats with his fumbles. Sony never lost us a game. Which is better, Chubb losing one game a year with fumbles, or Sony not losing a game with a lower "yards after contact" than Chubb?

203Pat · Jun 14, 2020

Wozzy said:
When Sony was drafted I wasn't high on the pick, and not because I didn't think he was talented. It was because years of watching BB draft told me you don't take a RB high in the draft, and also there were reports of preexisting knee issues. To this point Sony hasn't exactly missed a lot of games and he's played well.

Let's pretend Sony stayed healthy, his blocking was good and he continued his torrid 2018 pace his entire four year rookie contract. Unless he's willing to sign team friendly deal on short years, which is highly unlikely in that scenario, he is out the door anyway. The Patriots needed someone at RB who could play immediately and understood the pro game in ways most rookies don't. The Patriots aren't signing a RB to a massive contract, no way, no how.

I don't get fans obsession with draft picks. Teams like the Bengals "win the draft" every year and every year they are right back at the top of the 1st round with the rest of the doormats.

Sony will give them 4 years, then he'll be gone and it will be next man up. Damien Harris will give them 4 years, then he'll be gone and it will be next man up.

RB's are expendable, they can be found everywhere. They signed Burkhead to a one year deal back in 2017 and he's been fine outside of some injuries. RB's are a high impact injury prone position, better to sift through the value free agency pile and draft one every few years then pay a superstar.

When he was picked I wasn’t thrilled because I would never take a RB in the first round but I thought at least Sony would be a great RB in our system. We couldn’t even get a good player at a stupid position so to me we swung and missed twice with the same pick.
As far as being “obsessed” with picks I’d say the draft is the single most important way to build a successful roster. You get young cheap players. The horrific drafting over the last 5 or so years has been the main reason why he are in the position we are in. We have a pretty subpar offense right now and not a ton of cap space. Now missing on picks will be even more glaring because Brady won’t be there to cover up the deficiencies.

BaconGrundleCandy · Jun 14, 2020

I'm not sure where the disconnect is? Genuinely asking opinions ...

I think Sony was a key player during that SB run but he was someone you could easily replace based on his production. Good not great. You can get mid-udfa. You absolutely have the right to expect more from early picks and if you're taking a RB that early he should be special. Bill likes what he likes and I understand better than most considering how many prospects I've gotten right that we picked but let's not pretend like you can't get similar production much later. Just look at literally every top 10 RB list from any year and you'll see it.

Like we saw from the SB teams this year. Like we've seen from NEP for years (BJGE, LGB, Ridley etc..) Shanahans anyone? Running game matters, RB don't.

Also we ran like 20 different types of runs during that game. That's NOT bc of 1 RB. It's bc of the OL unit.

You're telling me Sony was more important than the OL & defense? Again he was very good but please let's not get carried away.

Betterthanmost · Jun 14, 2020

varjao said:
2 procedures already, he better save his 1st round money because he can become Stevan Ridley 2.0

I think Ridley will end up lasting longer than Michel. If Harris becomes a hit, Michel may be on trading blocks when healthy.

DropKickFlutie · Jun 14, 2020

One-If-By-Sea said:
Anyone who does not like Michel did not watch Maroney. Maroney could not find a hole for his life - he had no idea where the play was happening. We had reports that BB was personally tutoring Maroney so he could hit the hole - that did not work. Sony hits the hole and runs hard.

Concerning "yards after contact", BB requires a running back to wrap up the ball on contact. It is much harder to run with both arms over the ball, but you fumble less. Remember BJGE who did not fumble in 4 seasons with the Partriots but promptly fumbled five time in two seasons with the Bengals, and was cut. Wonder why? Because BB thinks "yards after contact" are less important than fumbles. Posters on PatsFans think that fumbles are less important than "yards after contact". Remember when everyone said that the Patriots fumble less because the Pats play with deflated balls? Haha. When the balls were proven to be at league standards the Pats still fumbled less. BUT we have less "yards after contact" so, of course, PatsFans declares Sony is a bust.

Chubb singularly lost the game to the Pats with his fumbles. Sony never lost us a game. Which is better, Chubb losing one game a year with fumbles, or Sony not losing a game with a lower "yards after contact" than Chubb?

True at least Michel has some vision. He just falls at first sign of contact. Maroney and Chad Jackson were absolutely disaster picks from McDaniels.

.

DropKickFlutie · Jun 14, 2020

BaconGrundleCandy said:
I'm not sure where the disconnect is? Genuinely asking opinions ...

I think Sony was a key player during that SB run but he was someone you could easily replace based on his production. Good not great. You can get mid-udfa. You absolutely have the right to expect more from early picks and if you're taking a RB that early he should be special. Bill likes what he likes and I understand better than most considering how many prospects I've gotten right that we picked but let's not pretend like you can't get similar production much later. Just look at literally every top 10 RB list from any year and you'll see it.

Like we saw from the SB teams this year. Like we've seen from NEP for years (BJGE, LGB, Ridley etc..) Shanahans anyone? Running game matters, RB don't.

Also we ran like 20 different types of runs during that game. That's NOT bc of 1 RB. It's bc of the OL unit.

You're telling me Sony was more important than the OL & defense? Again he was very good but please let's not get carried away.

Agree
If we just kept LaGarrett Blount we would have still gotten great production at the RB spot

.

203Pat · Jun 14, 2020

vuudu said:
I think Ridley will end up lasting longer than Michel. If Harris becomes a hit, Michel may be on trading blocks when healthy.

Can’t wait to get that conditional 7th rounder.

Wozzy · Jun 14, 2020

203Pat said:
When he was picked I wasn’t thrilled because I would never take a RB in the first round but I thought at least Sony would be a great RB in our system. We couldn’t even get a good player at a stupid position so to me we swung and missed twice with the same pick.
As far as being “obsessed” with picks I’d say the draft is the single most important way to build a successful roster. You get young cheap players. The horrific drafting over the last 5 or so years has been the main reason why he are in the position we are in. We have a pretty subpar offense right now and not a ton of cap space. Now missing on picks will be even more glaring because Brady won’t be there to cover up the deficiencies.

Sony when healthy and with a good team around him has been better than good, you don't lead the entire NFL in postseason rushing without being good. Everyone needs blocking, the same way everyone needs good tackling. The blocking in 2019 was horrid.

Saying Sony has been "not good" is as much hyperbole as saying the Pats have "drafted poorly." The Patriots are the only team so good they have to red-shirt rookies and give them a "Foxboro flu" designation otherwise risk losing them from the practice squad. Any other team in the league would have rolled with N'Keal's high ankle sprain last year and kept him on the active roster, the Pats figured why not work other guys in. JoeJuan, Damien Harris, Froholdt, Cajuste... it's a deep team that isn't desperate to start rookies.

Over the last six years the Patriots have gone to 4 Super Bowls and won 3 of them, the other two years they lost a Conference Championship and wild card game... their record over that time is a league best 74-22. The majority of talent on those teams has been homegrown talent.

This is the only place where wildly successful beyond all hopes and expectations = "sucks"

Assuming Stidham is good and with good health this offense and team will be fine. Assuming the young guys stay healthy and perform this is one of the most talented teams in the league.

One-If-By-Sea · Jun 14, 2020

DropKickFlutie said:
True at least Michel has some vision. He just falls at first sign of contact. Maroney and Chad Jackson were absolutely disaster picks from McDaniels.

Go outside, wrap both arms around a football and try to run.

Of course Sony falls over - that is the price you pay for overly protecting the ball. You can have more yards after contact by not double clutching the football, but fumbles will eventually increase. Double clutching might not be as pretty (it surely isn't), but less turn overs lead to more victories.

Do you want a beautiful run or a decreased chance of a fumble? BB plays the odds and tells his RBs to wrap up the ball before contact. If they fall over so be it.

Taco · Jun 14, 2020

varjao said:
2 procedures already, he better save his 1st round money because he can become Stevan Ridley 2.0

Where are the fumbles?

moosekill · Jun 15, 2020

"super talent MVP Lamar Jackson."

Yes let's compare him with Sony, the qb who wouldn't have played a snap for us yet if he was drafted. He sure would have helped win that superbowl, sitting on the bench not playing. He wouldn't be worth any trade value, we would have no idea how good he was, and would never have built a team around him, like Baltimore did, so they could put up amazing regular season numbers then lose in their first playoff game every year.

TheRazorsEdge · Jun 15, 2020

I agree. I think the critique that we overpaid is fair. He isn't what we thought he'd be..esp considering the lack of production in the receiving game.

BaconGrundleCandy said:
I'm not sure where the disconnect is? Genuinely asking opinions ...

I think Sony was a key player during that SB run but he was someone you could easily replace based on his production. Good not great. You can get mid-udfa. You absolutely have the right to expect more from early picks and if you're taking a RB that early he should be special. Bill likes what he likes and I understand better than most considering how many prospects I've gotten right that we picked but let's not pretend like you can't get similar production much later. Just look at literally every top 10 RB list from any year and you'll see it.

Like we saw from the SB teams this year. Like we've seen from NEP for years (BJGE, LGB, Ridley etc..) Shanahans anyone? Running game matters, RB don't.

Also we ran like 20 different types of runs during that game. That's NOT bc of 1 RB. It's bc of the OL unit.

You're telling me Sony was more important than the OL & defense? Again he was very good but please let's not get carried away.

scott99 · Jun 15, 2020

I wanted Lamar Jackson in the draft, BUT, Sony Michel was my favorite player in the draft for the Patriots, and I was pleasantly surprised when the Pats drafted him. The Pats had never drafted my favorite prospect in any draft, ever. He had a GREAT rookie year, and was a major factor in the Pats winning the SB. Had a tough 2019, but still ran for over 900 yards. Hopefully the foot was a reason for his tough 2019.

203Pat · Jun 15, 2020

Wozzy said:
Sony when healthy and with a good team around him has been better than good, you don't lead the entire NFL in postseason rushing without being good. Everyone needs blocking, the same way everyone needs good tackling. The blocking in 2019 was horrid.

Saying Sony has been "not good" is as much hyperbole as saying the Pats have "drafted poorly." The Patriots are the only team so good they have to red-shirt rookies and give them a "Foxboro flu" designation otherwise risk losing them from the practice squad. Any other team in the league would have rolled with N'Keal's high ankle sprain last year and kept him on the active roster, the Pats figured why not work other guys in. JoeJuan, Damien Harris, Froholdt, Cajuste... it's a deep team that isn't desperate to start rookies.

Over the last six years the Patriots have gone to 4 Super Bowls and won 3 of them, the other two years they lost a Conference Championship and wild card game... their record over that time is a league best 74-22. The majority of talent on those teams has been homegrown talent.

This is the only place where wildly successful beyond all hopes and expectations = "sucks"

Assuming Stidham is good and with good health this offense and team will be fine. Assuming the young guys stay healthy and perform this is one of the most talented teams in the league.

Yes he had a good postseason in 2018. He also had more games to play in than any other starting RB than Todd Gurley so I would hope his stats would be better than guys who played in less post season games that year. That being said I am not taking away from what he did that 3 game stretch. He ran well.

Maybe your standards are lower than mine or maybe you just want to bury your head in the sand but Sony was not good in 2019. A first round running back in his second year that plays in all 16 games should have 1000 yards rushing. No way around it. He isn't some scrappy UDFA RB who battled his way up the depth chart in camp. He averaged .8 ypc less than his rookie year and once again offered almost nothing as a pass catcher. There is absolutely nothing about Sony that makes him dynamic. He doesn't make people miss, he doesn't break many tackles, he doesn't have any real speed, and he doesn't catch passes.

As far as the draft goes you can pull the tired "well we went to a bunch of Super Bowls!" trope all you want. The last few drafts have been subpar to flat out bad. The reason this team continued to win and continued to make it to the Super Bowl is because Brady performed at a high level and Bill is still the best coach in the league. Having the cream of the crop at the two most important positions in the game is going to cover up a lot of deficiencies.

You state that any other team would just have let a rookie skill position player hang around the active roster with a high ankle sprain because why? I don't understand how that factors into anything. We weren't exactly deep at receiver by any means aside from maybe week two when we had AB and Gordon hadn't gone off the reservation yet (or proved to be a washed up version of what he used to be yet). We had a non existent Dorsett, a banged up Sanu on a learning curve, a very badly abused Edelman, and an UDFA in Meyers outside of Harry. I wouldn't exactly call that a plethora of riches at receiver.

The recent drafts are bad. We have come away two guards that are pro bowl level players and that is really about it. Last years team was not deep whatsoever at any spot aside from the secondary and outside on Wino and a punter almost none of last years class played.

scott99 · Jun 15, 2020

203Pat said:
Yes he had a good postseason in 2018. He also had more games to play in than any other starting RB than Todd Gurley so I would hope his stats would be better than guys who played in less post season games that year. That being said I am not taking away from what he did that 3 game stretch. He ran well.

Maybe your standards are lower than mine or maybe you just want to bury your head in the sand but Sony was not good in 2019. A first round running back in his second year that plays in all 16 games should have 1000 yards rushing. No way around it. He isn't some scrappy UDFA RB who battled his way up the depth chart in camp. He averaged .8 ypc less than his rookie year and once again offered almost nothing as a pass catcher. There is absolutely nothing about Sony that makes him dynamic. He doesn't make people miss, he doesn't break many tackles, he doesn't have any real speed, and he doesn't catch passes.

As far as the draft goes you can pull the tired "well we went to a bunch of Super Bowls!" trope all you want. The last few drafts have been subpar to flat out bad. The reason this team continued to win and continued to make it to the Super Bowl is because Brady performed at a high level and Bill is still the best coach in the league. Having the cream of the crop at the two most important positions in the game is going to cover up a lot of deficiencies.

You state that any other team would just have let a rookie skill position player hang around the active roster with a high ankle sprain because why? I don't understand how that factors into anything. We weren't exactly deep at receiver by any means aside from maybe week two when we had AB and Gordon hadn't gone off the reservation yet (or proved to be a washed up version of what he used to be yet). We had a non existent Dorsett, a banged up Sanu on a learning curve, a very badly abused Edelman, and an UDFA in Meyers outside of Harry. I wouldn't exactly call that a plethora of riches at receiver.

The recent drafts are bad. We have come away two guards that are pro bowl level players and that is really about it. Last years team was not deep whatsoever at any spot aside from the secondary and outside on Wino and a punter almost none of last years class played.

I think potentially, the 2019-20 drafts could turn out to be HUGE for this franchise. Even if 50% of them work out, it could propel this team. I don't have a problem with guys getting redshirted their rookie seasons (the infamous Foxborough flu), and that doesn't happen all of the time, but it does seem to happen often enough.

The 2019 draft, the ONLY pick I hated was JoeJuan Williams. And if you saw my ranting after the pick, it was pretty well documented that I was pissed we traded up to get him when so many good wide receivers were still available. In fact, WR's Mecole Hardman (Pro Bowl returnman, which we desperately needed as well) and DK Metcalf were drafted in the original slots we had in the 2nd round. I think all of the other picks have a chance to be solid to good Patriots. If half of them live up to their potential, they will be good Patriots who make an impact.

2020 draft, I think the TEs were great picks, and were the most important picks in the draft. Don't get me wrong, I love the LB picks of Uche and Jennings as well, I think they will be important pieces down the road with the losses of Van Noy (big loss) and Collins (I thought he played poorly late in the season). BUT, this offense, which is at it's best when it has at least one good pass catching TE, if both succeed, it'll make our offense more potent. Of course, the kicker Rohwasser, that is a make or break draft choice, it's really important he hits the ground running and is a good kicker right off the bat.

I agree, the drafts from 2013-18 were very poor, a few good pieces, but some really bad selections. I think 2019-20 could be considered good drafts if the players work out. I think they were good selections.

203Pat · Jun 15, 2020

scott99 said:
I think potentially, the 2019-20 drafts could turn out to be HUGE for this franchise. Even if 50% of them work out, it could propel this team. I don't have a problem with guys getting redshirted their rookie seasons (the infamous Foxborough flu), and that doesn't happen all of the time, but it does seem to happen often enough.

The 2019 draft, the ONLY pick I hated was JoeJuan Williams. And if you saw my ranting after the pick, it was pretty well documented that I was pissed we traded up to get him when so many good wide receivers were still available. In fact, WR's Mecole Hardman (Pro Bowl returnman, which we desperately needed as well) and DK Metcalf were drafted in the original slots we had in the 2nd round. I think all of the other picks have a chance to be solid to good Patriots. If half of them live up to their potential, they will be good Patriots who make an impact.

2020 draft, I think the TEs were great picks, and were the most important picks in the draft. Don't get me wrong, I love the LB picks of Uche and Jennings as well, I think they will be important pieces down the road with the losses of Van Noy (big loss) and Collins (I thought he played poorly late in the season). BUT, this offense, which is at it's best when it has at least one good pass catching TE, if both succeed, it'll make our offense more potent. Of course, the kicker Rohwasser, that is a make or break draft choice, it's really important he hits the ground running and is a good kicker right off the bat.

I agree, the drafts from 2013-18 were very poor, a few good pieces, but some really bad selections. I think 2019-20 could be considered good drafts if the players work out. I think they were good selections.

I am definitely not writing off the 2019 class yet. My point was more that aside from JoeJuan Williams (who I agree was an odd pick) it isn't like we were very deep at any of the positions that these guys were drafted where we had the luxury to redshirt them. We desperately needed something out of Harry and he got banged up then eased back in once he was healthy. I was one of the many (I think) who wanted to see what Harris had to offer last year. Maybe he couldn't pick up pass pro and thats why he didn't get many reps but even if that was the case it's not like we didn't run the ball 90% of the time Sony was in the game anyways. It would've been nice to see him get some carries down the stretch if nothing else than to light a fire under Michel.

I would love to see some of these young rookie contract players blossom into starters and hopefully Pro Bowlers and start rebuilding a young core of what devolved into an aging, slow roster. They added some speed on defense with Duggar and Uche and then some potential immediate contributors with the TE and H-back picks so I think the more athletic youth infusion with a few of the old guard (McCourty, Slater) to lead will be a solid start to the rebuild.

Wozzy · Jun 15, 2020

203Pat said:
Yes he had a good postseason in 2018. He also had more games to play in than any other starting RB than Todd Gurley so I would hope his stats would be better than guys who played in less post season games that year. That being said I am not taking away from what he did that 3 game stretch. He ran well.

Maybe your standards are lower than mine or maybe you just want to bury your head in the sand but Sony was not good in 2019. A first round running back in his second year that plays in all 16 games should have 1000 yards rushing. No way around it. He isn't some scrappy UDFA RB who battled his way up the depth chart in camp. He averaged .8 ypc less than his rookie year and once again offered almost nothing as a pass catcher. There is absolutely nothing about Sony that makes him dynamic. He doesn't make people miss, he doesn't break many tackles, he doesn't have any real speed, and he doesn't catch passes.

As far as the draft goes you can pull the tired "well we went to a bunch of Super Bowls!" trope all you want. The last few drafts have been subpar to flat out bad. The reason this team continued to win and continued to make it to the Super Bowl is because Brady performed at a high level and Bill is still the best coach in the league. Having the cream of the crop at the two most important positions in the game is going to cover up a lot of deficiencies.

You state that any other team would just have let a rookie skill position player hang around the active roster with a high ankle sprain because why? I don't understand how that factors into anything. We weren't exactly deep at receiver by any means aside from maybe week two when we had AB and Gordon hadn't gone off the reservation yet (or proved to be a washed up version of what he used to be yet). We had a non existent Dorsett, a banged up Sanu on a learning curve, a very badly abused Edelman, and an UDFA in Meyers outside of Harry. I wouldn't exactly call that a plethora of riches at receiver.

The recent drafts are bad. We have come away two guards that are pro bowl level players and that is really about it. Last years team was not deep whatsoever at any spot aside from the secondary and outside on Wino and a punter almost none of last years class played.

Sony's averages were better than the other playoff RB's in 2018, so the "he played more" excuse is simply that... an excuse. The more you play, the more difficult it is to maintain an average, especially in the playoffs.

Football is won at the line of scrimmage, it starts upfront and works its way back. 2019 the blocking was terrible. No TE's, no FB... and I've already shown using line by line game stats how as soon as the blocking improved so did Sony's averages. From the bye week on last year he was good. Strange... I guess his "talent" magically returned.

Brady or any QB being the sole reason a team performs at a high level is garbage. Brady doesn't play special teams, defense, he doesn't block or catch. QB's get entirely too much credit when teams win and none of the blame when they lose.

I can compile a long list of average QB's who have won a championship, you can't provide one example of an average team that won a ring.

If Nick Foles, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler and Brad Johnson can win a ring, then you don't need a superstar franchise caliber QB to win a ring. All you need is "good" QB play.

Show me the Nick Foles version of a team that won a ring... it doesn't exist.

The best team from 1-53 wins rings, QB's being the sole reason is a fanboy take.

The Patriots are largely made up of homegrown rookie talent... a team can't simultaneously win the most games and championships over the last six years and suck.

203Pat · Jun 15, 2020

Wozzy said:
Sony's averages were better than the other playoff RB's in 2018, so the "he played more" excuse is simply that... an excuse. The more you play, the more difficult it is to maintain an average, especially in the playoffs.

Football is won at the line of scrimmage, it starts upfront and works its way back. 2019 the blocking was terrible. No TE's, no FB... and I've already shown using line by line game stats how as soon as the blocking improved so did Sony's averages. From the bye week on last year he was good. Strange... I guess his "talent" magically returned.

Brady or any QB being the sole reason a team performs at a high level is garbage. Brady doesn't play special teams, defense, he doesn't block or catch. QB's get entirely too much credit when teams win and none of the blame when they lose.

I can compile a long list of average QB's who have won a championship, you can't provide one example of an average team that won a ring.

If Nick Foles, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler and Brad Johnson can win a ring, then you don't need a superstar franchise caliber QB to win a ring. All you need is "good" QB play.

Show me the Nick Foles version of a team that won a ring... it doesn't exist.

The best team from 1-53 wins rings, QB's being the sole reason is a fanboy take.

The Patriots are largely made up of homegrown rookie talent... a team can't simultaneously win the most games and championships over the last six years and suck.

Yes I said Sony played well in the 2018 postseason but you said he "led the entire 2018 postseason in rushing" which is why I pointed out he played more games than most. Regardless he played well so there is no point in this part of the discussion.

As for the LOS part of your post you're basically arguing my point. He can do what Blount, Green-Ellis, Ridley, etc type JAG RBs can do when they have good blocking. Like I said in my previous post I would like to see him show that he is special and could make something happen when the blocking isn't there. Make a guy miss in the backfield. Break a tackle. Break an open field run for a TD. Do something that a RB drafted 5 rounds later couldn't do.

I forgot that now that Brady isn't a Patriot anymore the homers will do all they can do diminish his contributions. The QB is the single most important position in sports. Everyone will always point to Trent Dilfer and say "see see you can win without a QB!". Okay yes if you have an all time historic defense then yes you can potentially win a Super Bowl with sub par QB play. Brad Johnson had a great year when they won the Super Bowl. He had the highest passer rating in the NFC that season. Jeff Hostetler filled in for an injured Simms and played well and even beat Simms out the next year till he got injured. Will they go down as hall of famers? No of course not but if you were to remove their name from their stat lines no one would scoff at them.

Where is this notion that the team "sucks" as you keep saying? I said the last few drafts have sucked. You keep saying homegrown talent yes there is homegrown talent that helped us win a lot of games but they were guys like Brady, Gronk, Hightower, McCourty, Slater, David Andrews, and Edelman. Aside from Thuney and Mason none of these "homegrown guys" have been drafted recently.

Hyped · Jun 15, 2020

I think Sony is gonna make some of yall STFU this season.

Sony Michel recovering from foot surgery

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In the Starting Line-Up

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