Two Rookie Linebackers Is Enough

[Box_O_Rocks]

I've been to camp a few times and Alexander has looked solid. He seems much improved with more quickness and he played well in the 1st pre-season game as well. Alexander seems to have a good football IQ and he knows where to be. He is not out of position very many times. He supports the run well and is tough. Yes he has had his struggles in coverage in the past, but he does have some upside in this area and shown it this year. He is a very good special teams player as well. I'm not down on him like others.

H'mm, I thought Alexander looked lost against the run and fine in coverage Thursday.

 

[mgteich]

Your statement on experience is telling. Obviously if experience is worthless, we should keep many more youngsters with potential.

Alexander, Woods and Izzo have been on the team to play Special teams. They are starters on all the special teams. I understand why you would cut Alexander and Izzo. You think several of our undrafted rookies can play as well as they can.

This is a discussion we have every year, about old veterans and about special teamers. Every year posters here want the old vets to go, especially special teamers. And every year the low-cost veterans and special teamers make the 53 man squad.

If healthy, special teams are active for every game. They are important and valuable. And, yes, I do value experience highly.

Well, I thought the goal this year was to "Get younger and faster on defense." Linebacker is the best place to get that youth and speed. You vastly overate the "experience" factor.

Why would bringing back Seau be an "good" upgrade, but cutting Alexander for Guyton or Redd be a "bad" upgrade? Was cutting Justin Rodgers last year in order to keep Chad Brown a "good" upgrade in your book?

hy limit to two new rookies. I prefer getting the best 53 on the roster. Not just for this year but for the next three. Alexander, never took that next step forward and is already cut in my book, Izzo is purely a special teamer, Hobson, the jury is still out on. I would hate to lose Izzo becuase he has done a lot off the field and a professional on it; but if a rookie shows the potential to in 2 years be a rotation guy, I vote Izzo off the island.

If Hobson is still struggling after the third preseason game, then I would say bringing in Seau is a good idea. Otherwise, let him keep surfing.

 

[JoePats]

The other reason to temper expectations about the undrafted LBs is well, they were undrafted. Sure there were some off-field stuff to keep in mind, but even so. Undrafted is undrafted. It's not like they would have been 2nd or 3rd round picks.

 

[patchick]

The other reason to temper expectations about the undrafted LBs is well, they were undrafted. Sure there were some off-field stuff to keep in mind, but even so. Undrafted is undrafted. It's not like they would have been 2nd or 3rd round picks.

Perversely, I think a promising UDFA may actually have a tiny edge over a comparable 7th rounder with the Pats. BB & Co. love being able to tell priority UDFA targets that an undrafted rookie has made their team every year.

 

[Pats726]

Your statement on experience is telling. Obviously if experience is worthless, we should keep many more youngsters with potential.

Alexander, Woods and Izzo have been on the team to play Special teams. They are starters on all the special teams. I understand why you would cut Alexander and Izzo. You think several of our undrafted rookies can play as well as they can.

This is a discussion we have every year, about old veterans and about special teamers. Every year posters here want the old vets to go, especially special teamers. And every year the low-cost veterans and special teamers make the 53 man squad.

If healthy, special teams are active for every game. They are important and valuable. And, yes, I do value experience highly.

I tend to agree..I do think at some point, a vet like Izzo will be beat out..that is inevitable. When is the real question. But I think Alexander's situation is different. If he is expected to play ILB as a backup and they see the potential developing, then he is more versatile than just a ST player. I think he's more in a competition if it's the latter, (ST only situation)..but I do not think both he and Izzo will be cut. Aiken's injury also enters into this as well. Guyton has a shot at it..Redd I think is a longshot for the 53...but I really feel like they'll be some interesting decisions they will be facing.

 

[14thDragon]

I've been to camp a few times and Alexander has looked solid. He seems much improved with more quickness and he played well in the 1st pre-season game as well. Alexander seems to have a good football IQ and he knows where to be. He is not out of position very many times. He supports the run well and is tough. Yes he has had his struggles in coverage in the past, but he does have some upside in this area and shown it this year. He is a very good special teams player as well. I'm not down on him like others.

Eh, I did not see much out of him on Thursday, if he does something in the next 3 games, maybe I let him back in. He has had his time, I would be sweating blood at this point if he is on the feild since I would suspect the opposing O would attack him every play.

I think you miss the point here, they need more than talent/experience, they need to be able to fit into a particular scheme in the D. That takes time and patience, some do not fit in..Beisel did not at all..didn't get it..Chad Brown would have been fine if he had stayed outside.

Tried that last year, gotten beaten like sheet metal. He had nothing left and it showed. The team lost a prospect on the chance he could be a "experienced" reserve and in that role on the outside he got killed.

Izzo I agree with, he's a ST only player.

I am not sure about Alexander as I feel that he might be a backup ILB, but he really has to show something this camp or he's more a ST only player.

I think it could go either way.

This is where I think Guyton could make the team.

Alexander has had several years now to step-up. I have not seen anything to indicate he has. YMMV. I give Guyton the nod and see what he can do. Guyton is the riskier bet, but IMHO a ton more upside.

Hobson will be a backup, it takes time. I KNOW it's been slow for him, but unless they feel he's that far away, then he's a keeper. In other words he has to do pretty bad to be cut. Really show no hope of development in the system here.

Why? What has Hobson done in the NFL that buys him that much patience. If does not perform as well as someone else, cut him. I would be fine with cutting him and keeping Alexander if Alexander is better.

But I wonder about Redd and Guyton and if they will keep one or risk the waiver wire...I would like to see both stay with the team..but I really do not see Redd making the 53..as much as I would love that.

I think it all depends. If they show enough ST ability to replace Alexander and Izzo then they can stay. If not then you risk losing them. Thats what we pay Belicheck and Pioli for.

 

[14thDragon]

This is a discussion we have every year, about old veterans and about special teamers. Every year posters here want the old vets to go, especially special teamers. And every year the low-cost veterans and special teamers make the 53 man squad.

Guys like Alexander, Woods, and TBC were all guys that came in and took veterans and special teamer spots, so it is not as if always the verterans hold the spots. I do not think there is a huge body of evidence that shows keeping low-cost veterans and special teamers builds quality depth. I think it is much more likely to get a starter by keeping potential. You disagree.

And experience is not worthless, but atheltisim is just as important and does not need to be discounted so in the face of a "complex" defense. You can not teach speed, or size.

 

[wdkantro2]

I truly think Guyton has a spot on the 53 man on special teams. Granted it was the first preseason game, but he was on I think every first team ST grouping. The speed he brings to the table is unlike anything we've seen out of a young backer before and with Izzo getting old, I think Guyton is in a great spot to get molded into that role.

 

[BPF]

I think the Pats learned a valuable lesson last year with Justin Rogers, young LB's with potential will not clear waivers. Guyton and Redd will not clear waivers and will not make it to the PS if they are waived. I expect Ruud to either be IR'd and if not he should clear waivers since he hasn't shown anything due to being injured and he can be placed on the PS. At this point in time Guyton is running with the 2's at ILB and it certainly looks like he can contribute on special teams, btw he was a special teams demon in college. Redd has too much size/size and too much natural ability and he can also play special teams.

Initially my thinking heading into camp was that Hobson would make it and that Alexander would be let go but now I really feel as though Hobson's job is in jeopardy. Alexander should make it but I don't see Izzo doing so if Aiken is healthy. I think the fact that the Pats haven't IR'd Aiken is an indication that his injury is not as serious as initially feared and that he should be back. It's going to be a very tough cut with this group and a big question mark heading into camp has turned into a real positive with lots of solutions. It looks like the Pats have a good problem on their hands here with this group but if I had a gun to my head and had to pick now I would go with the following: Vrabel, Brushci, Mayo, Thomas, Woods, Guyton, Alexander, Crable and Redd to make it. Hobson hasn't shown much and he is on a 1 yr deal so he is stopgap at best, Izzo is not what he once was eventhough I think he can still play some I think he is year to year at this point so he is a very short term ST's option as well. You can't risk two young prospects like Guyton and Redd to waivers so I think they make the squad. Hey, they weren't drafted but you were lucky enough to get them on your roster.

From Reiss today: http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2008/08/observations_fr_13.html

Rookie free agent Gary Guyton seemed to get more reps at inside linebacker when the second unit came on.

 

[tombonneau]

From Reiss today: http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2008/08/observations_fr_13.html

I noticed this as well. Definitely bodes well for Guyton. Will be watching for him on Sunday ...

 

[Pats726]

Tried that last year, gotten beaten like sheet metal. He had nothing left and it showed. The team lost a prospect on the chance he could be a "experienced" reserve and in that role on the outside he got killed.

I really don't think Rogers was that big of a prospect..they actually had open spots when they cut to the 53...so apparently they didn't think he was worth it. I thought he might have been but..if they passed him for an open spot..it really didn't matter that much to the team.

Alexander has had several years now to step-up. I have not seen anything to indicate he has. YMMV. I give Guyton the nod and see what he can do. Guyton is the riskier bet, but IMHO a ton more upside.

We shall see what happens..I do think they need experience on ST and Alexander has that...as far as ILB goes..(this I have said right along)it's a make it or break it year for him.

Why? What has Hobson done in the NFL that buys him that much patience. If does not perform as well as someone else, cut him. I would be fine with cutting him and keeping Alexander if Alexander is better.

And why not?? It takes time to learn the LB position in the NE scheme..or maybe you have NOT realized that at all.

I think it all depends. If they show enough ST ability to replace Alexander and Izzo then they can stay. If not then you risk losing them. Thats what we pay Belicheck and Pioli for.

I agree..but the team needs to have some experience on ST..throw in unexperienced players and guess what..you don't get good results even on ST...I agree..they will make the right moves...it's not easy and this year they have some tough decisions. It's also more than ST ability.,.it's experience that also counts on ST...which is why with Aiken possibly out...I think either Izzo or Alexanders stays.

 

[14thDragon]

We shall see what happens. I do think they need experience on ST and Alexander has that.

As far as ILB goes, this I have said right along, it's a make it or break it year for him.

In my Book, that was last year, he could not even break a roation with the NFLs version of the ARRP. He broke it.

And why not?? It takes time to learn the LB position in the NE scheme..or maybe you have NOT realized that at all.

Hey, if I am gonna wait for a guy to learn the system, I am going with the guy who is picking it up quicker. Espcially if he has better physical tools. Hobson does not have anything in his tool kit to make me want to invest in him instead of someone else.

I agree, but the team needs to have some experience on ST. Throw in unexperienced players and, guess what, you don't get good results even on ST.

Well you still will have Woods, Washington, Sanders, Merriweather, AD, Evans, Smith, Wright, etc. then I am not worried adding a couple of new faces.

agree..they will make the right moves...it's not easy and this year they have some tough decisions. It's also more than ST ability.,.it's experience that also counts on ST...which is why with Aiken possibly out...I think either Izzo or Alexanders stays.

Sure, and I could certainly see Izzo staying if Aiken is sidelined for an extended time or worse IRed. But I would disagree with decision if it comes at the expense of letting a guy with more defensive potential go. I am looking in the long term as well.

 

[jeffbiologist]

There is a reason why Ruud, Redd and Guyton were undrafted, and there is a reason they are BOTH here to compete for LB spots.....we were the oldest around. But in drafting Mayo and Crable(I dont consider Ruud a draft pick really)we got younger immediately. There is only so much a rookie can learn per year in this system, and teaching more than 2 rookies would strain resources I would think(knowing they just arent used to teaching rookies). I can see one of the 3 on the PS(others snatched up), but I cant see keeping more than 2 on the roster.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

There is a reason why Ruud, Redd and Guyton were undrafted, and there is a reason they are BOTH here to compete for LB spots.....we were the oldest around. But in drafting Mayo and Crable(I dont consider Ruud a draft pick really)we got younger immediately. There is only so much a rookie can learn per year in this system, and teaching more than 2 rookies would strain resources I would think(knowing they just arent used to teaching rookies). I can see one of the 3 on the PS(others snatched up), but I cant see keeping more than 2 on the roster.

Resources...
Elder Statesmen: Bruschi, Vrabel, Adalius Thomas, Izzo, Harrison
Journeymen: Woods, Alexander, Hobson
LB Coaches: Belichick, Pees, Capers, Patricia, Pepper Johnson, Don Davis, Scarnecchia

Rookie LB numbers, what me worry? They can always find someone who can teach/help from either a coaching or a player's perspective - and that doesn't count the personnel people who might have played/coached or that Tippet guy Bob Kraft keeps on retainer.

Keep the best players. "Cry 'Havoc!’, and let slip the dogs of war." :robot:

 

[patsox23]

I'd be happy to upgrade by bringing in Seau or another veteran, but I don't think we need more youth. I expect we'll add another rookie or two next year. For now, we have solid 9 man squad, all with their roles.

Vrabel, Thomas, Woods, Crable
Bruschi, Mayo, Hobson, Alexander
Izzo (Special teams only)

I believe that Redd, Ruud and Guyton are competing for Practice Squad jobs.

Disagree. Redd or Guyton make the team, possibly both.

 

[patsox23]

Guyton, at this point, seems like closer to a lock than Hobson. Hobson has been BAD, from all that I've heard.

 

[ALP]

i disagree OP...

before this year, who is the last young LB we found that has panned out?

Alexander sucks, and Woods only now, after 3 years, is showing some sparks

noONE else

crable and mayo i think are locks, but i want at least 2 of the remaining 3 rookie LB's to stay if they show promise, b/c who knows when well find other young lb's who will even show promise up to this point...

if there is the slightest chance of them developing well, keep em

 

[Pats726]

]In my Book, that was last year, he could not even break a roation with the NFLs version of the ARRP. He broke it.[/QUOTE] I have to totally disagree on that one..there are many starters on teams that would not be able to break that so called "AARP" starting lineup so the fact that Alexander could not really means zilch.

Hey, if I am gonna wait for a guy to learn the system, I am going with the guy who is picking it up quicker. Espcially if he has better physical tools. Hobson does not have anything in his tool kit to make me want to invest in him instead of someone else.

Who said Guyton was picking it up quicker?? Again..you show a real naivete for understanding the linebacking system. By the way, would you have clipped Bruschi as well?? He took a few years learning the system.

Well you still will have Woods, Washington, Sanders, Merriweather, AD, Evans, Smith, Wright, etc. then I am not worried adding a couple of new faces.

Who of that list has 4 or 5 years of ST experience?? And please don't put AD in that category..there are a number of vets on the team that play on STs...but a team needs one or two experienced ST players. Apparently, experience means nothing to you on special teams. I think Seely would differ on that.

Sure, and I could certainly see Izzo staying if Aiken is sidelined for an extended time or worse IRed. But I would disagree with decision if it comes at the expense of letting a guy with more defensive potential go. I am looking in the long term as well.

Again..special teams is about a third of the game..and experience matters.

 

[BPF]

H'mm, I thought Alexander looked lost against the run and fine in coverage Thursday.

I was talking in general because the Ravens had 35 yds rushing on 21 carries (1.7 avg.) so our D did well vs the run, all units - as a team.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I was talking in general because the Ravens had 35 yds rushing on 21 carries (1.7 avg.) so our D did well vs the run, all units - as a team.

Well, yes and no. I believe both the Ravens "starting" OT were held out of the game and they didn't have McGahee. I like Ray Rice, I wanted BB to draft him in the second as the next Kevin Faulk (if he is released grab him Pioli), but he was being taken down with one-armed tackles. The reserve RB they used late in the game is another small back, Cory Ross out of Nebraska. I saw good things from the Pats D on run downs, but I don't consider last Thursday's Ravens to be the best test.