LaMont Jordan signed, Robert Ortiz waived

[Keegs]

That's just playing scared, though. If Evans, Morris, Faulk, and Maroney are active, then Jordan is inactive - period. I think the Pats would much rather invest a roster spot in a Slater or Ventrone or Spann who could make an impact on special teams instead of riding the bench in street clothes like Jordan.

Jordan is good training camp depth, and I don't dispute that. If Morris, Faulk, or Maroney get injured in the preseason and are hindered going into the regular season, then Jordan is great to have around and is a good remedy to a case of the ZereoueCloudPass-itis. But anyone looking for Jordan to have any measureable role in this offense alongside a healthy Morris, Faulk, and Maroney isn't going to find it.

so you are saying there is absolutely no chance that Jordan could beat out Morris?

how do you know?

 

[tombonneau]

Re: Adam Schefter reports Pats sign LaMont Jordan

Then who the hell lead blocks?

Hochstein or some other guy in a pinch on goal line situations. Remember, before Evans was signed a few years ago, the FB position was rarely used by NE. And without going through the numbers, I'd guess the vast majority of sets are still from the one-back.

 

[pats1]

so you are saying there is absolutely no chance that Jordan could beat out Morris?

how do you know?

I never said that, and that's not what you said either.

In terms of my argument, a combination of Maroney, Faulk, and Morris is no different than a combination of Maroney, Faulk, and Jordan.

I'm simply arguing against the probability of a Maroney, Faulk, Morris, and Jordan scenario entering the regular season, assuming all are uninjured.

 

[LuthierJr]

I like it! Jordan is good depth, and should compete with Morris well...

 

[tombonneau]

That's just playing scared, though. If Evans, Morris, Faulk, and Maroney are active, then Jordan is inactive - period. I think the Pats would much rather invest a roster spot in a Slater or Ventrone or Spann who could make an impact on special teams instead of riding the bench in street clothes like Jordan. And besides, the Pats have done that in cases where there are existing injuries at the position, like Thomas missing all of camp and most of the regular season. That's when you see the Pats picking up a Marcellus Rivers (or in 2006, Walter Rasby and Chris Luzar), but I don't think you see them carrying extra veteran players at a specific position going into the regular season just because there's been a history of injuries at such position.

Jordan is good training camp depth, and I don't dispute that. If Morris, Faulk, or Maroney get injured in the preseason and are hindered going into the regular season, then Jordan is great to have around and is a good remedy to a case of the ZereoueCloudPass-itis. But anyone looking for Jordan to have any measureable role in this offense alongside a healthy Morris, Faulk, and Maroney isn't going to find it.

I think there is a big difference in bringing in marginal journeyman TEs like Rivers and what they have been doing with RBs this offseason.

The Pats have been sniffing around big name FA RBs all off season and finally pounced. IMO, that is not the actions of a team just looking to let a guy hang around, cut him, and hope he is available midseason if you need him.

That's what guys like BenJarvus are for. Not names like Kevin Jones & Lamont Jordan. You do that with them, and you run a risk that they get picked up. They aren't exactly Shadow Roster material.

 

[pats1]

Re: Adam Schefter reports Pats sign LaMont Jordan

Hochstein or some other guy in a pinch on goal line situations. Remember, before Evans was signed a few years ago, the FB position was rarely used by NE. And without going through the numbers, I'd guess the vast majority of sets are still from the one-back.

I'd have to go back and check Reiss' data from last season, but there more FB/HB formations than you'd think, especially on the goal line.

And I can't remember the Pats using a non-FB as a lead blocker since Evans has been around. Both Klecko and Seymour were injured doing just that in 2004 (and apparently Seymour still isn't too happy about it), so I think the Pats have strayed away from doing that like they used to.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Folks seem to forget a BB mantra "create competition at EVERY position", of course limited by what's possible given roster and cap limits. It's not coaching scared to have depth at the start of TC. Injuries happen.

 

[Keegs]

I never said that, and that's not what you said either.

In terms of my argument, a combination of Maroney, Faulk, and Morris is no different than a combination of Maroney, Faulk, and Jordan.

I'm simply arguing against the probability of a Maroney, Faulk, Morris, and Jordan scenario entering the regular season, assuming all are uninjured.

ok got it.

I agree with the bold part.

I was getting the impression that you felt like Morris was a much better option than Jordan, which i didn't understand since we haven't seen anything from Jordan yet and he has been impressive on crap teams in the past.

If Jordan and Morris are both healthy and are doing well, i hope they can make room for both of them.

 

[pats1]

I think there is a big difference in bringing in marginal journeyman TEs like Rivers and what they have been doing with RBs this offseason.

The Pats have been sniffing around big name FA RBs all off season and finally pounced. IMO, that is not the actions of a team just looking to let a guy hang around, cut him, and hope he is available midseason if you need him.

That's what guys like BenJarvus are for. Not names like Kevin Jones & Lamont Jordan. You do that with them, and you run a risk that they get picked up. They aren't exactly Shadow Roster material.

And each time Jones or Jordan or Bell have been mentioned, I haven't been quite sure why they've been angling for such big fish. My belief is that they want to avoid another scenario like they've had over the past few years where two of their backs go down with short term injuries and Faulk plus a street FA have severely hindered their offense's ability to be successful. So I think they've been looking for someone like Jordan to hang around during camp and be ready to almost seamlessly step in and keep the offense productive if one of the backs was to go down during camp. But I just don't see such a scenario continuing past the cutdown to 53. They'd keep Jordan on speedial if he was still around, but keeping a special teamer around would provide more value for one of those final roster spots.

 

[pats1]

ok got it.

I agree with the bold part.

I was getting the impression that you felt like Morris was a much better option than Jordan, which i didn't understand since we haven't seen anything from Jordan yet and he has been impressive on crap teams in the past.

If Jordan and Morris are both healthy and are doing well, i hope they can make room for both of them.

People were saying the exact same thing about Patrick Cobbs in 2006. They wanted the Pats to make room for both Cobbs and Faulk (as well as Maroney and Dillon), and I argued that keeping both Cobbs and Faulk would be a tremendous. The Pats, as you may remember, ended up trading Cobbs to the Steelers, and now Cobbs is a backup on the Dolphins.

As far as Morris vs. Jordan goes, I was extremely impressed with Morris' play last season, and as the incumbent, I'd have to give him the leg up.

 

[pats1]

Folks seem to forget a BB mantra "create competition at EVERY position", of course limited by what's possible given roster and cap limits. It's not coaching scared to have depth at the start of TC. Injuries happen.

I didn't say that having Jordan around for competition and camp depth is coaching scared - I agree with that decision. However, dragging Jordan's dead weight around in the regular season as insurance to Morris getting hurt, based on the premise that he was injured last season and thus prone to injury this year, is wasteful.

 

[bradmahn]

pats1, if you have repeatedly scratched your head over the interest in all of these running backs, shouldn't that affect your "confidence" in some way?

It's not unreasonable to consider the team carrying Maroney, Faulk, Morris, and Jordan when you consider the versatility all provide (Jones and Bell bring versatility, as well, which I believe to be the reason for the interest in them).

You raised the point that the Patriots have only carried a fifth RB when that fifth player also has the potentiality to play fullback (I don't know if that's entirely true, but for the sake of the argument I'm going to accept it), well, Morris has experience as a lead blocker in Miami. He may be working on that later in camp (it'll be interesting to follow and I'd assume would say a lot about the back situation).

Another thing to keep in mind is that gameday inactives are not concrete. They vary depending on gameplan and opponent. The inactives can also make a considerable impact during practice and with someone as versatile as Jordan has been in the past, he could probably emulate a great deal of opposing backs. Morris, too.

Morris, in my opinion, is a better backup to the backup because of the FB/RB possibility, a well-rounded game, and his special teams ability. I don't know if Jordan has been much of a 'teamer in the past, but he may have to play there in New England.

These guys are brought in (or looked at) as competition, it is foolhardy to declare, in July, that a talented player like Jordan will absolutely not either beat out Sammy Morris (who's never been as good and is coming off an injury that none of us know with any degree of certainty won't affect his play this year) or make the team.

On Sammy Morris, yeah, he was good last season but it was also against a lot of lousy teams. Against a much better run defense in the Cowboys he was ineffective (granted, Wade Phillips also made it a point to stop the run. Yeah, good idea, Wade). He, as a player, is certainly replaceable.

 

[pats1]

pats1, if you have repeatedly scratched your head over the interest in all of these running backs, shouldn't that affect your "confidence" in some way?

It's not unreasonable to consider the team carrying Maroney, Faulk, Morris, and Jordan when you consider the versatility all provide (Jones and Bell bring versatility, as well, which I believe to be the reason for the interest in them).

You raised the point that the Patriots have only carried a fifth RB when that fifth player also has the potentiality to play fullback (I don't know if that's entirely true, but for the sake of the argument I'm going to accept it), well, Morris has experience as a lead blocker in Miami. He may be working on that later in camp (it'll be interesting to follow and I'd assume would say a lot about the back situation).

Another thing to keep in mind is that gameday inactives are not concrete. They vary depending on gameplan and opponent. The inactives can also make a considerable impact during practice and with someone as versatile as Jordan has been in the past, he could probably emulate a great deal of opposing backs. Morris, too.

Morris, in my opinion, is a better backup to the backup because of the FB/RB possibility, a well-rounded game, and his special teams ability. I don't know if Jordan has been much of a 'teamer in the past, but he may have to play there in New England.

These guys are brought in (or looked at) as competition, it is foolhardy to declare, in July, that a talented player like Jordan will absolutely not either beat out Sammy Morris (who's never been as good and is coming off an injury that none of us know with any degree of certainty won't affect his play this year) or make the team.

On Sammy Morris, yeah, he was good last season but it was also against a lot of lousy teams. Against a much better run defense in the Cowboys he was ineffective (granted, Wade Phillips also made it a point to stop the run. Yeah, good idea, Wade). He, as a player, is certainly replaceable.

I never said that Jordan wouldn't beat out Morris; I simply said that he's the fourth option at RB until proven otherwise.

I know that Morris does have some experience at FB, but I don't see him lead blocking much. I especially don't foresee a scenario where neither Evans nor Eckel make the team and Morris fills in where Evans used to play. That's just not playing to Morris' strengths, IMO, and thus not getting good value from him.

 

[bradmahn]

I never said that Jordan wouldn't beat out Morris; I simply said that he's the fourth option at RB until proven otherwise.

I know that Morris does have some experience at FB, but I don't see him lead blocking much. I especially don't foresee a scenario where neither Evans nor Eckel make the team and Morris fills in where Evans used to play. That's just not playing to Morris' strengths, IMO, and thus not getting good value from him.

You seemed fairly definitive. Maybe I was reading too much into it.

I completely agree that I don't see this team entering the year without a FB (be it Eckel or Evans), I was just pointing out that Morris does provide the option of playing FB as the hypothetical "fifth back."

Has it been announced that Jordan is making the vet minimum? That's another factor to consider in the battle of Jordan v. Morris, as Morris has a top-15 cap hit on this team and his release would save more than $1 million.

 

[JMarr]

As much as I like Morris (Texas Tech kid) and was pleasantly suprised at how he came in and tore it up last year, there's no guarantee that he'll be the same player this year (or that Maroney will stay healthy for that matter).

Too early to overanalyze the RB situation--anything can happen. Great signing, depth/insurance-wise

 

[pats1]

You seemed fairly definitive. Maybe I was reading too much into it.

I completely agree that I don't see this team entering the year without a FB (be it Eckel or Evans), I was just pointing out that Morris does provide the option of playing FB as the hypothetical "fifth back."

Has it been announced that Jordan is making the vet minimum? That's another factor to consider in the battle of Jordan v. Morris, as Morris has a top-15 cap hit on this team and his release would save more than $1 million.

Well, the cap has ballooned so much over the past few years that the Pats are actually under it by about $10M right now. While they will always make financially prudent decisions, I don't think money will be in a factor when determining the roster at running back.

 

[bradmahn]

Well, the cap has ballooned so much over the past few years that the Pats are actually under it by about $10M right now. While they will always make financially prudent decisions, I don't think money will be in a factor when determining the roster at running back.

The money is a factor when choosing between the two.

 

[spacecrime]

Re: Adam Schefter reports Pats sign LaMont Jordan

I hope he can play ST. Unless he can play good enough to take over for Morris and move Morris back to ST where we all thought he would be last year.

Speak for yourself. Most of us never thought of Morris as a special teamer. Morris was great with the Bills and Fins.

Jordan isn't a special teamer, either.

The Pats have a lot of role players, but every player's role isn't ST.

 

[patchick]

However, dragging Jordan's dead weight around in the regular season as insurance to Morris getting hurt, based on the premise that he was injured last season and thus prone to injury this year, is wasteful.

How about as insurance in case Morris or Maroney gets hurt?

RB injuries seem to be a constant these days. If you buy into the trend of splitting reps between a pair of top backs, then you need three. Yes, it's a luxury, but a pretty reasonable one. The stead interest in legit NFL RBs all offseason has to suggest that the Pats think so too -- or that they've soured on Morris, but there's no reason to think that at this point.

Evans, to me, is hardly even part of this equation -- he's there for lead blocking and as one of the leaders on special teams. (If Izzo goes, Evans looks like a likely ST captain.)

 

[BPF]

Morris spells Maroney.



He can do that from the street or someone else can do it from the practice squad. A 53-man roster does not allow for a backup 3rd down back.



See Morris, Sammy or Maroney, Laurence.



I don't see Jordan making the roster and Morris not, barring an injury. Morris is out on the field practicing - I think we can throw the whole "coming off an injury" idea out now.

Look, I've been through this discussion before. In 2006, there was a contingent on this board that wanted to keep Dillon, Maroney, Faulk, and Patrick Cobbs (in addition to Evans) on the roster. My view was that Cobbs had absolutely no chance of making the roster, unless he had some other value on special teams.

The Pats have absolutely no room to carry a fourth pure RB. Jordan is training camp depth unless one of the incumbents do something to his job.

Jordan could've signed w/the Saints and been guaranteed a job, he wouldn't sign here if he was "training camp depth," he is beyond the rookie FA deal at this point in his career. No one said he is going to be a back up 3rd down back either. He will make this team, the only way he doesn't if he gets hurt. I'm not saying Morris gets waived, what I'm saying is we find a way to keep them all. They will find room for Jordan, depth is critical at the RB position and we can't be lining up with Evans and/or Eckel as primary ball carriers if Maroney and/or Morris get hurt. We will feature the run a lot more this year with the defenses we will be facing, teams will adjust how they defend us so we will need to do the same. Also Faulk can not carry the load either so he is not an option as a full time back.

As far as Morris backing up Maroney, that was last year and this is this year. No one is guaranteed the same role from one year to another. We'll see what happens when the games start.