Reiss selects Florida DE Harvey in latest mock

[tombonneau]

From Blog:

Geoff Hobson of Bengals.com is conducting mock drafts and he phoned Wednesday looking for a Patriots pick at No. 7. For each team, he had a writer making the picks, and this is the way his mock unfolded:

# 1) Dolphins -- OL Jake Long
# 2) Rams -- DE Chris Long
# 3) Falcons -- DT Glenn Dorsey
# 4) Raiders -- DE Vernon Gholston
# 5) Chiefs -- DT Sedrick Ellis
# 6) Jets -- CB Leodis McKelvin

After picking Kansas CB Aqib Talib last week (trades aren't part of the format), I changed my tune this week. The more I thought about it, I can't imagine the Patriots paying that much to an unproven cornerback when they had Asante Samuel and could have invested that money in him.

So the focus turned to some bigger bodies up front. I had initially shied away from Florida DE Derrick Harvey, who would project to outside linebacker in the team's 3-4. But given the choices on the board in this scenario -- and Belichick and Scott Pioli's ties to Florida -- I went with Harvey.

Here are the first eight picks, with some commentary included with each selection.

Looks like Reiss is reading a lot into BB's visit to Gainsville.

NFLdraftcountdown.com has him doing to Vikings in middle of first on their latest mock, so definitely feels like a reach (or maybe Reiss would have felt NE would trade down, only he couldn't in mock).

Here is their scouting report:

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/de/derrickharvey.html

Strengths:
Excellent athleticism...Good size with long arms and the frame to get bigger...Has a great motor...Very quick with a great first step...Plays faster than he times and has a burst to close...Great instincts and awareness...Has terrific range and does a good job in pursuit...Does a solid job against the run...Has decent strength and power...Offers some versatility...Plays with a nasty demeanor...Awfully productive.

Weaknesses:
Lacks elite speed...Could stand to bulk up a bit...Needs to add some more moves to his pass rush repertoire..Can get overpowered at the point of attack..Will have to improve his hand use...Struggles to shed blocks once massive offensive tackles are able to lock on...Must do a much better job of protecting his lower extremities.

Notes:
Was a 5-Star recruit coming out of high school...Redshirted in '04 and saw limited action as a backup in 2005...Started five games as a sophomore while playing in a rotation...Recorded 3 sacks against Ohio St. and was named Defensive MVP of the '07 Tostitos BCS National Championship Game...Only started 18 college games...Is not quite as fast or athletic as Jarvis Moss but might be a better pro prospect...A prototypical 43 defensive end and might be able to play outside linebacker in a 34 scheme as well..One of the premier pass rushers available for the 2008 NFL Draft.

From this report, sounds like he is more a pure DE with less of a chance to convert to 3-4 OLB than other prospects ... but gotta admit I don't know much about the guy.

 

[dryheat44]

From Blog:



Looks like Reiss is reading a lot into BB's visit to Gainsville.

NFLdraftcountdown.com has him doing to Vikings in middle of first on their latest mock, so definitely feels like a reach (or maybe Reiss would have felt NE would trade down, only he couldn't in mock).

Here is their scouting report:

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/de/derrickharvey.html



From this report, sounds like he is more a pure DE with less of a chance to convert to 3-4 OLB than other prospects ... but gotta admit I don't know much about the guy.

No, you're absolutely right. If presented with the choice of Harvey or Groves, BB will almost certainly take Groves.

Belichick visits Meyer every year, along with Tony LaRussa on his trip to Spring Training. Reiss should know better than to read too much into this.

 

[Metaphors]

No, you're absolutely right. If presented with the choice of Harvey or Groves, BB will almost certainly take Groves.

Belichick visits Meyer every year, along with Tony LaRussa on his trip to Spring Training. Reiss should know better than to read too much into this.

While my exposure to Harvey and Groves was limited (pretty much just national TV games), it seems like there is a pretty solid distinction between them.

Harvey seems more consistent and you notice him on just about every play. The question is whether or not he can successfully transition to OLB. Not so much that I believe he can't...just don't have much evidence to show that he can make the transition successfully. That may be a deal-breaker at #7.

Groves seems ideal for OLB so I doubt the transition will be much of a question. However, he seems to disappear at times. Not sure if it is effort or if he is out of position (either blocked or lost). Maybe some SEC followers have a better read on Groves, but the possibility of drafting a slacker at #7 may be too big a risk.

Either way, I would be much more comfortable drafting these guys later in the first round if at all possible.

 

[cstjohn17]

No, you're absolutely right. If presented with the choice of Harvey or Groves, BB will almost certainly take Groves.

Belichick visits Meyer every year, along with Tony LaRussa on his trip to Spring Training. Reiss should know better than to read too much into this.

I think there is more to a football player than the 'bathing suit' test, Groves has almost every advantage physically but his work ethic and passion for the game is highly questionable. I would not be surprised if Harvey was taken at 7 but would b shocked if Groves was taken at 7. If the Pats trade back to around 15 and Groves is available then it starts to make sense.

Urban can provide detailed information on Harvey, work ethic, etc. between Meyer and Saban BB has two really good scouts for the SEC players.

All the talk of speed is overrated, I can't recall Merriman, Ware or any other rush oriented LB making a play going backwards. They are paid to close the pocket and pressure the QB. When all is said and done I don't think there will be much of a gap between the pro careers of Harvey, Long and Gholston. Groves good also perform or continue to be the dog most of the time, with an occasional tease thrown in.

 

[sebman2112]

While my exposure to Harvey and Groves was limited (pretty much just national TV games), it seems like there is a pretty solid distinction between them.

Harvey seems more consistent and you notice him on just about every play. The question is whether or not he can successfully transition to OLB. Not so much that I believe he can't...just don't have much evidence to show that he can make the transition successfully. That may be a deal-breaker at #7.

Groves seems ideal for OLB so I doubt the transition will be much of a question. However, he seems to disappear at times. Not sure if it is effort or if he is out of position (either blocked or lost). Maybe some SEC followers have a better read on Groves, but the possibility of drafting a slacker at #7 may be too big a risk.

Either way, I would be much more comfortable drafting these guys later in the first round if at all possible.

I have a hard time believing a player who missed two games after dislocating three toes (early in the season), and still finished 2007 with 23 QB pressures (most in the SEC) is a potential "slacker".

His only giving up 1.69 yards per carry on the 35 plays he made against the run, and making 28 third down stops (20 of which he made in pass coverage) seem to go against that theory, as well.
To go even further, Groves made 13 tackles inside the Red Zone, and had 6 Goal-line Stops. So, even while playing injured, Groves made some important plays, and put a ton of pressure on the apposing QB. That's not a common trait found among slackers.

Also, did you get to see how a healthy Groves played in 2006?

But, I will agree that I would rather trade down, and possibly select Groves, if available.

 

[dryheat44]

All the talk of speed is overrated, I can't recall Merriman, Ware or any other rush oriented LB making a play going backwards. They are paid to close the pocket and pressure the QB. When all is said and done I don't think there will be much of a gap between the pro careers of Harvey, Long and Gholston. Groves good also perform or continue to be the dog most of the time, with an occasional tease thrown in.

If we were looking for a 4-3 end, I'd be inclined to agree with you. However, it is my belief that a 3-4 OLB needs to have more agility and quickness than Harvey appears to have. I think Groves is much less a project.

 

[cstjohn17]

If we were looking for a 4-3 end, I'd be inclined to agree with you. However, it is my belief that a 3-4 OLB needs to have more agility and quickness than Harvey appears to have. I think Groves is much less a project.

We agree to disagree. I don't think to use stats (unless the help my argument) but I look at these numbers and I see a bunch of guys that are very similar, some are faster (Groves, Gholston) some are stronger (Gholston, Harvey), etc. etc. etc. All of their shuttle and cone times are about the same (whatever that means), Harvey actually has better times than Groves in both of them. When I watched the drills on NFL Network Harvey and Long appeared the most fluid, not the fastest but the most natural.

In the end I rate the top 3 of Gholston, Long and Harvey as almost the same with Groves a little further behind. They were all productive in college and are good athletes, their ability to improve and endorse football as a profession will determine who becomes a better pro.


Long, Chris ---------- Virginia ---1 6-3 272 4.75 2.70 1.53 34 10'04" 4.21 7.02
Gholston, *Vernon ---- Ohio State -1 6-3 266 4.65 2.65 1.53 37 35 1/2 10'05" 4.40 7.12
Harvey, *Derrick ------ Florida -- 1 6-5 271 4.84 2.76 1.59 31 28 1/2 09'05" 4.36 7.27
Groves, Quentin ------ Auburn ---- 1 6-3 259 4.53 2.62 1.57 30 29 1/2 10'00" 4.42 7.31

 

[hobbsownscoles]

Am I the only one who thinks Cliff Avril is a better OLB fit than either of these 2?

 

[cstjohn17]

Am I the only one who thinks Cliff Avril is a better OLB fit than either of these 2?

Avril is a nice player, not very productive but his workouts have really helped his stock. I think he is a better fit in some other schemes but if the Pats took a CB in round 1 and Avril in round 2 I would consider it a good day 1. That could be an option if the Patriots see less of a drop-off in the round 2 DEs than they see in the round 1 CBs.

 

[hobbsownscoles]

Avril is a nice player, not very productive but his workouts have really helped his stock. I think he is a better fit in some other schemes but if the Pats took a CB in round 1 and Avril in round 2 I would consider it a good day 1. That could be an option if the Patriots see less of a drop-off in the round 2 DEs than they see in the round 1 CBs.

Avril was more productive than groves this past year, I know groves hurt is toe, but come on, If he's worth the 7th pick he should have more than 3 sacks no matter how hurt he is

 

[cstjohn17]

Avril was more productive than groves this past year, I know groves hurt is toe, but come on, If he's worth the 7th pick he should have more than 3 sacks no matter how hurt he is

You are right 3 sacks in terrible, very risk pick in the top 15.

 

[Metaphors]

I have a hard time believing a player who missed two games after dislocating three toes (early in the season), and still finished 2007 with 23 QB pressures (most in the SEC) is a potential "slacker".

His only giving up 1.69 yards per carry on the 35 plays he made against the run, and making 28 third down stops (20 of which he made in pass coverage) seem to go against that theory, as well.
To go even further, Groves made 13 tackles inside the Red Zone, and had 6 Goal-line Stops. So, even while playing injured, Groves made some important plays, and put a ton of pressure on the apposing QB. That's not a common trait found among slackers.

Also, did you get to see how a healthy Groves played in 2006?

But, I will agree that I would rather trade down, and possibly select Groves, if available.

Groves in 2006? I don't even remember what I had for lunch today...

My point wasn't that he didn't show up for entire games. In big games (remember, those are the only ones I saw) he would seem to disappear for large portions of the game. I'm not a scout so for all I know he could have been hurt or taking an extended bathroom break. All I know is he sure as heck wasn't tackling anybody in the 2nd half of the LSU and Georgia games. He showed up in the 1st half, particularly at LSU, but you just didn't notice him as those games slipped away at the end.

That doesn't make him a slacker, but it does make his productivity uneven. Seems to me that is worth looking into before handing him a check with 7 zeroes in it. Having a bank account flush with cash generally doesn't motivate someone to work harder...

 

[sebman2112]

Avril was more productive than groves this past year, I know groves hurt is toe, but come on, If he's worth the 7th pick he should have more than 3 sacks no matter how hurt he is

There's a difference between hurting your toe, and dislocating three toes...

Foot injuries are especially bothersome for speed edge rushers, so his even notching those 23 QB pressures is somewhat impressive to me. Also, Groves had 26 career sacks at Auburn, which tied for the most in school history, so I think he was more than productive as a pass rusher.

 

[hobbsownscoles]

There's a difference between hurting your toe, and dislocating three toes...

Foot injuries are especially bothersome for speed edge rushers, so his even notching those 23 QB pressures is somewhat impressive to me. Also, Groves had 26 career sacks at Auburn, which tied for the most in school history, so I think he was more than productive as a pass rusher.

I trust your opinion since you were dead on about meriweather last year,just something gets me uneasy about groves

 

[sebman2112]

Groves in 2006? I don't even remember what I had for lunch today...

My point wasn't that he didn't show up for entire games. In big games (remember, those are the only ones I saw) he would seem to disappear for large portions of the game. I'm not a scout so for all I know he could have been hurt or taking an extended bathroom break. All I know is he sure as heck wasn't tackling anybody in the 2nd half of the LSU and Georgia games. He showed up in the 1st half, particularly at LSU, but you just didn't notice him as those games slipped away at the end.

That doesn't make him a slacker, but it does make his productivity uneven. Seems to me that is worth looking into before handing him a check with 7 zeroes in it. Having a bank account flush with cash generally doesn't motivate someone to work harder...

In 2006 against the National champion Florida Gators he recorded 3 sacks, 2 QB pressures, 1 forced fumble, and 4 solo tackles. Versus Alabama he notched 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, and 7 total tackles.

In 2007 his sack totals obviously went down, but he was still a factor in some of their bigger games. Against LSU he had 1 sack, 1 forced fumble, and 3 solo tackles. In a 23-26 loss to South Florida, he posted 10 QB pressures, 2 tackles for loss, and 9 total tackles. He also had 5 total tackles at Georgia, and he made a nice goal-line stop (among other notables) in their final game vs Clemson.

I do understand the points being made concerning his 2007 production, but I'm obviously of the opinion that his injuries were a factor, and that a now healthy Groves could be a very good addition to NE's defense.


Also, I'm not projecting him as going in the top ten, but rather in the mid-teens to early twenties.

 

[kas]

Personally, I think Groves is VERY overrated on this board. He's not stout or physical enough to set the edge as an OLB in our system. The one thing he does have is incredible explosion. He has a ton of potential, but I don't think he's a fit in the Pats system.

Harvey is a much more physical and technically sound player. He actually reminds me a lot of McGinest. I think he could really excel here in that role, whereas Groves would need to have some changes made to suit his game.

 

[PonyExpress]

Harvey has the size to play strong side. My 3-4 OLB rankings aren't final, but right now I'm leaning this way:

1. C. Long: Superstar. comparison: Jared Allen.

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2. Gholston: his motor is an issue. His athleticism is not. He may be slightly overrated. nfl caliber:Will Smith.
3. Avril: Great player it appears you can get on the cheap, which makes him even more enticing. Motor is plus, athleticism is plus, attitude is plus. In another week I'll probably convince myself that I'd rather trade down for Avril and collect picks than take Gholston. nfl caliber: Shaun Phillips.
4. Groves: speed size combo is the best in years, but his drive is a bit of a question mark. Never really dominated the SEC, as many claim. Flashed brilliance in big games, then would disappear. Wimbley.
5. Harvey: If you add a few inches to his inaccurate combine vertical, he's not as lead footed as the numbers indicated. Looks like a best fit for strong side OLB. nfl caliber: Crowder from Texas.

Basically, what this means is, if Clady, the Longs and Gholston are gone, trade down as far as possible and take Avril.

 

[NePatriots]

I don't see Groves as a prospect for the Pats. We just don't commit to guys that don't like football. We are made up of (Bruschi, Seau, Vrabel, Moss, Harrison) that love to hit, be hit, and play football. Groves hasn't shown that he is that guy. Gholston has. The Longs have. Avril seems to be an adequate fit.

 

[cstjohn17]

I don't see Groves as a prospect for the Pats. We just don't commit to guys that don't like football. We are made up of (Bruschi, Seau, Vrabel, Moss, Harrison) that love to hit, be hit, and play football. Groves hasn't shown that he is that guy. Gholston has. The Longs have. Avril seems to be an adequate fit.

Are you guys related to Avril? He is getting a lot of love.

He only had 13 sacks in 35 games. I am all in favor of drafting him at the end of round 2. But to say he has more pro potential than Harvey or Groves is really stretching it. Groves and Harvey played in a much tougher conference and likely were focal points of most offensive coaches. Avril was protected by Spencer last year and only had 6.5 sacks this year.

 

[PonyExpress]

Are you guys related to Avril? He is getting a lot of love.

He only had 13 sacks in 35 games. I am all in favor of drafting him at the end of round 2. But to say he has more pro potential than Harvey or Groves is really stretching it. Groves and Harvey played in a much tougher conference and likely were focal points of most offensive coaches. Avril was protected by Spencer last year and only had 6.5 sacks this year.

You should give Avril another look. He played 10 games as a sophomore LB with a BROKEN BACK and understandably went sackless. As a junior he only moved to strong side DE from ss LB in the 5th game at 240 lbs, and had 6.5 sacks and 15.5 tackles for loss and 7 PBU. As a senior he played strong side again, had 6.5 sacks, 15 TFL, 4 FF, 5 PBU and a pick six. That is major production in all phases and shows a high motor and the guts to mix it up in the trenches. Playing that position at 250 lbs in the Big 10 is very tough to do. Who are you comparing him to? He had all 13 of those sacks over the past 2 seasons, which is more than Groves had over the same time period operating mainly as a PR specialist. Avril is a different kind of player than Harvey. Avril projects to weak side 3-4 OLB in the NFL. Harvey is probably a strong side 3-4 OLB, if he is an OLB at all. To get Harvey we'd have to take him in the top 10 probably. To get Avril we could get him at #32.

I have clear reasons for liking Avril. He is a tremendous athlete, a fierce competitor who has demonstrated the character to to play 1A football with a broken back for 10 games.

As far as tougher conferences go...

Then why draft Gholston over Harvey? or Jake Long/Clady ahead of King Dunlap? or Matt Ryan ahead Woodson? or C. Long ahead of Groves? or Talib over Patrick Lee? None of them played in the SEC, and yet are considered the better prospect.

Two years ago the ACC set a record for 1st rd selections. Conference play shouldn't be the deciding factor. Plus Avril can probably be grabbed later in the draft than Groves, due to his "lesser" reputation from playing out of position in a "weak" conference, which means more draft picks can be garnered from a trade down for a roughly equivalent player.

I like Groves as a prospect. Alot. Avril is the same size, a similar athlete, and had at least equal production.