Our Defense is NOT Loaded; our BACKUPS are weak.

[mgteich]

Of course he's a question mark. As of today, the ones who stand the best chance of securing seats in the LB room as long as they don't completely screw-up are Obiazor & Britt, in that order. If Pats keep only 4 LBs then Muma & Jacobs are on the outside looking-in...

You are correct. If Vrabel chooses to have one of the worst backup groups in the league, then Muma might be gone.

Choosing Obiazor and Britt as our backups, with no 5th would be truly horrible.

OUT: Gibbens, Tavai, Mapu

IN: Britt, Obiazor, nobody

Muma may not be very good, but he does add to total value of this unit. I suspect that with an injury, Muma might get significant reps, but he is useful even as a #4 or #5. If nothing else, he can play lots of ST's.

 

[Wozzy]

you are the one repeating oneself.
it has been pointed out to you that Tonga and WIlliams were out along with Spillane

Williams was out 3 games prior to Spillane missing Time and the rush defense didn’t melt. Tonga was out the last 2 games of Spillanes 4 game absence.

The first two games of Spillanes absence were the two largest rushing totals allowed all season by the defense. The funniest part is once Gibbens failed they tried Tavai there and that didn’t work either. But you want us to ignore our collective shared experience. Spillane’s injury broke the dam.

It has also been pointed out Gibbons did not sign for peanuts with the Cards. his guarantee is triple that of Muma.

Triple Muma’s non guaranteed deal is not the barometer. One year 4 million is a nice paycheck for Gibbens, it’s not “starter money” for a 27 year old. You suggesting it is… absurd.

I assume he will start in Ariz, while Muma is a question mark here.
time will tell

I wish Gibbens well, just not here. We’ll see with Muma. Barring injury he is the next man up.

 

[Wozzy]

Patriots scouting report: Chad Muma is right in the LB3 mix

Previewing the Patriots linebacker heading into his fifth NFL season.

www.patspulpit.com

Interesting note from the article you posted.

"Muma raised some eyebrows during the third and final mandatory minicamp session, when he took on green dot duties with Robert Spillane limited."

Pretty much confirmed what I predicted.

 

[Wozzy]

Instead of using some Negative Nancy's ^ ill formed logic to wonder if Muma can play middle LB'er or not, I went to PFR and pulled up five starts where he played 75% or more of defensive snaps.

Some things to note on those five starts. Buffalo and Detroit were two of the best rushing teams and offenses in the NFL those seasons. Detroit posted their fifth worst rushing total on the season including the playoffs, barely eclipsing 100 yards.

Buffalo? Dead last rushing total on the season for them. James Cooks had an all-time career worst 5 carries for -4 rushing yards, also one of his worst as a receiver 3 catches 25 yards for 8.3 yards per reception... the worst day of his entire life.

Josh Allen had 4 carries for 14 yards rushing, the fourth worst rushing total of his season... so he wasn't effective rushing either. Baltimore and Atlanta barely reached 100 yards rushing.

So if Muma isn't good at LB'er, it certainly didn't show up in the stats.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

So if Muma isn't good at LB'er, it certainly didn't show up in the stats.

So if Muma isn't good it does show up when the Jags cut him after 3 years, and the Colts waived him after 2 months. The Pats seem to be looking hard at Muma and maybe something clicked for him, but the Jags and Colts didn't think much of him.

 

[rkarp1]

So if Muma isn't good it does show up when the Jags cut him after 3 years, and the Colts waived him after 2 months. The Pats seem to be looking hard at Muma and maybe something clicked for him, but the Jags and Colts didn't think much of him.

he is a decent to good ST player with potential on defense.
to date, he has not been able to fulfill that potential.
given his age (27) it is fair to wonder if he ever will, and if the plan A back up plan at ILB of Britt and Muma/OB will be good enough.
the team has the money, coaching staff connections and snap count availability, that should appeal to a vet looking for a "show me" deal, to compete.
Britt, Muma or OB might win out, regardless, but there is no downside to bringing in another vet to compete

 

[Wozzy]

So if Muma isn't good it does show up when the Jags cut him after 3 years, and the Colts waived him after 2 months. The Pats seem to be looking hard at Muma and maybe something clicked for him, but the Jags and Colts didn't think much of him.

The Jags had two Pro Bowl caliber starting ILB’ers ahead of him on the depth chart. It wasn't a matter of him not being good. His coach called him a special teams ace.

Then they had a new coaching staff take over and it came down to money. He had one year left on his rookie deal. This is a regular occurrence, new regimes want their guys in place and a fresh start. The player and his agent probably wanted a clean landing spot with an opportunity to start.

He was making inroads with the Colts as a special teamer and dealt with injuries. The Patriots poached him off their practice squad. This all happened in one season, his journey isn’t that convoluted or full of failure. He’s just a talented guy waiting for his chance, we’ll see if he can capitalize on it when it comes.

This Patriots regime showed a knack for finding other teams castaways or value vets and putting them to good use last season. I trust Vrabel and Co…

 

[rkarp1]

The Jags had two Pro Bowl caliber starting ILB’ers ahead of him on the depth chart. It wasn't a matter of him not being good. His coach called him a special teams ace.

Then they had a new coaching staff take over and it came down to money. He had one year left on his rookie deal. This is a regular occurrence, new regimes want their guys in place and a fresh start. The player and his agent probably wanted a clean landing spot with an opportunity to start.

He was making inroads with the Colts as a special teamer and dealt with injuries. The Patriots poached him off their practice squad. This all happened in one season, his journey isn’t that convoluted or full of failure. He’s just a talented guy waiting for his chance, we’ll see if he can capitalize on it when it comes.

This Patriots regime showed a knack for finding other teams castaways or value vets and putting them to good use last season. I trust Vrabel and Co…

why can't you admit Muma is a gamble as a LB that may or may not work out?
and the players behind him have never taken an NFL snap
why are you planting your flag/agenda on Muma, when clearly the back up players are questionable?

 

[1960Pats]

I could not disagree more with everything you posted
the rebuild is complete
they have their QB/LT/CB/DL stud/WR/very good OL
the roster is deep, talented and young
the cap is in very good shape
the staff is in great shape
no roster is perfect, including this one
there is no reason this team cannot win the SB

Considering the fact that they were close to winning a SB, added a top WR for Maye and what looks like some decent draft picks, they probably improved and should be contending again.

 

[Wozzy]

why can't you admit Muma is a gamble as a LB that may or may not work out?

He’s not a gamble, he has zero guaranteed dollars on his contract. I can’t think of less of a gamble.

and the players behind him have never taken an NFL snap

Neither has Caleb Lomu, Jacas or Raridon… but people here are still counting them as quality depth and excited over their potential. Rookies always bring some level of projection and the unknown, they’re still the best way to inject your team with fresh cheap talent. I like Obiazor and Jacobs as prospects, why does that affect you on a personal level? Oh yeah, because Wozzy disagrees with your assessment.

why are you planting your flag/agenda on Muma, when clearly the back up players are questionable?

I’m not planting my flag solely on Muma, I’m planting my flag on the entire backup group being better than last year at this time.

I had hope for Mapu but he played a lot and when he did he looked lost. The only thing good about Gibbens was his mobility, otherwise he was a weak prospect. I put some faith in Vrabel’s inside knowledge about the player and was let down.

The simple fact is I liked Muma the draft prospect a lot. Also we’ve watched for decades as Bill grabbed guys like Vrabel, Ninkovich, Andruzzi, and pretty much the entire 2001 team of old guys who were undervalued by their previous teams and the entire NFL then turn them into multiyear contributors and champions. We watched that for decades. The one consistent was these guys were good athletic draft prospects who hadn’t found a good opportunity that supported their skillset.

We saw that return last year with the signings of Bradbury (PFF’s 32nd worst to 1st in one year), Tonga, Chaisson, Hawkins and even guys like Diggs who were damaged goods. Good team builders find value vets, they find diamonds in the rough undervalued by the league. Smart team builders find them. Muma has to stay healthy, the rookies need to develop… that sounds like every team in the NFL.

 

[rkarp1]

He’s not a gamble, he has zero guaranteed dollars on his contract. I can’t think of less of a gamble.

Neither has Caleb Lomu, Jacas or Raridon… but people here are still counting them as quality depth and excited over their potential. Rookies always bring some level of projection and the unknown, they’re still the best way to inject your team with fresh cheap talent. I like Obiazor and Jacobs as prospects, why does that affect you on a personal level? Oh yeah, because Wozzy disagrees with your assessment.

I’m not planting my flag solely on Muma, I’m planting my flag on the entire backup group being better than last year at this time.

I had hope for Mapu but he played a lot and when he did he looked lost. The only thing good about Gibbens was his mobility, otherwise he was a weak prospect. I put some faith in Vrabel’s inside knowledge about the player and was let down.

The simple fact is I liked Muma the draft prospect a lot. Also we’ve watched for decades as Bill grabbed guys like Vrabel, Ninkovich, Andruzzi, and pretty much the entire 2001 team of old guys who were undervalued by their previous teams and the entire NFL then turn them into multiyear contributors and champions. We watched that for decades. The one consistent was these guys were good athletic draft prospects who hadn’t found a good opportunity that supported their skillset.

We saw that return last year with the signings of Bradbury (PFF’s 32nd worst to 1st in one year), Tonga, Chaisson, Hawkins and even guys like Diggs who were damaged goods. Good team builders find value vets, they find diamonds in the rough undervalued by the league. Smart team builders find them. Muma has to stay healthy, the rookies need to develop… that sounds like every team in the NFL.

so why not bring in additional competition that have played in the league?
best players play.

 

[Wozzy]

so why not bring in additional competition that have played in the league?
best players play.

Because the players you’ve recommended are either not good, old and busted, too expensive or simply won’t sign up now for less money to be Spillane and Ellis’s backups.

More importantly these old busted players are not signed for a reason. Teams have their 90 man rosters including the Pats. These guys are on the scrap heap.

See what you have in the young guys already on the roster. If by mid camp and preseason you see a need, then you can go fill it. These old guys will still be sitting there waiting for someone to get hurt or an opportunity to open up. Nobody wants overpaid injury risks just to waste money… except you and a handful of negative nancy’s here.

All these smaller, wasteful contracts add up, so when you go to sign Gonzo or Maye you have dead cap from dozens of worthless players hampering you. The NFL has a hard cap… whether you believe it or not. Younger, better, cheaper in the mantra for this season.

 

[Family]

Because the players you’ve recommended are either not good, old and busted, too expensive or simply won’t sign up now for less money to be Spillane and Ellis’s backups.

More importantly these old busted players are not signed for a reason. Teams have their 90 man rosters including the Pats. These guys are on the scrap heap.

See what you have in the young guys already on the roster. If by mid camp and preseason you see a need, then you can go fill it. These old guys will still be sitting there waiting for someone to get hurt or an opportunity to open up. Nobody wants overpaid injury risks just to waste money… except you and a handful of negative nancy’s here.

All these smaller, wasteful contracts add up, so when you go to sign Gonzo or Maye you have dead cap from dozens of worthless players hampering you. The NFL has a hard cap… whether you believe it or not. Younger, better, cheaper in the mantra for this season.

I agree with this.

But that doesn't mean these position backups aren't weak NOW,

When your first backup was cut last year, and spent 1.5 month last season on someone's practice squad unclaimed, that's weak. Yeah he might be talented and work out, but the entire league thought nothing of him until rosters were depleted from injuries. So let's look at this as it is and not what you hope.

Other team's have better backups as you pointed out with Jacksonville.

I'm not blaming the team. The did give up Gibbens for peanuts because they didn't even tender him. I mean they tendered Westover. They knew this was a weak position from last year, and they're trying to upgrade. They're doing the right thing IMO exactly as you have laid out.

But that doesn't mean this isn't a weak area of the team.

 

[mgteich]

so why not bring in additional competition that have played in the league?
best players play.

If Vrabel believes that there is someone worth bringing in, he would have or will do so.

I don't doubt that Vrabel will continue looking, through camp and through the trade deadline. We should also consider the economics. What does Vrabel think a backup ILB is worth? Clearly an ILB is not worth enough to have tendered Gibbens.

 

[Family]

Clearly an ILB is not worth enough to have tendered Gibbens.

Or Gibbens was so bad that he could get another JAG to do a bad job for a third of the cost.

 

[Wozzy]

I agree with this.

But that doesn't mean these position backups aren't weak NOW,

When your first backup was cut last year, and spent 1.5 month last season on someone's practice squad unclaimed, that's weak. Yeah he might be talented and work out, but the entire league thought nothing of him until rosters were depleted from injuries. So let's look at this as it is and not what you hope.

Other team's have better backups as you pointed out with Jacksonville.

I'm not blaming the team. The did give up Gibbens for peanuts because they didn't even tender him. I mean they tendered Westover. They knew this was a weak position from last year, and they're trying to upgrade. They're doing the right thing IMO exactly as you have laid out.

But that doesn't mean this isn't a weak area of the team.

We'll know whether it's weak after camp starts, reports will start rolling in on the development of Muma and the youngsters.

Like I said above... if it looks bad then, those old broken down vets will still be sitting there unsigned.

Break glass in case of emergency. You don't burn money now unnecessarily, plus those young kids need the practice reps... that's how you develop and get better.

 

[patfanken]

Pardon me if I try to resolve this disagreement. One party thinks of Muma as a "gamble" because of his lack of starting snaps and so so results when he has played. The other party opines that is NOT a gamble because they don't have significant money ties to him and if he doesn't work out or if someone beats him out for a roster spot, we can get rid of him without consequence.

I don't know why this went on so long and got so bitter when there really wasn't a disagreement in the first place. You were literally not talking about the same things.

...AND if anyone is interested in my opinion, I'm less worried than most since we know a LOT more about our ILB's than we did this time last season. As of now, Spilane has proven to be a very good run stopper and a smart pass defender, and Ellis came out of nowhere to become by the end of the season, a quality sideline to sideline guy and a better than average pass defender. Neither are exceptional, but both are solid and work well within the total D

So, what if we are unsure about their backups. We are a lot more knowledgeable than we were, as fans, than last season, Meanwhile, we have an interesting group of backups in Britt, Obezor, and Muma, et al who will fight for the right to be this years' Ellis and Spillane

We also have injury question marks at the edge/OLB position but overall, I think we are a bit better there than last season. Jones is an upgrade on Chaisson as a 2 way defender. Landry is on track to being back for camp. Jacas was lifting some serious iron on that so called bad knee with no braces (though I would have him improve his form). Plus the potential of Ponder and Swinson, et al This is a much better start than we had going into last season

Add these position groups to perhaps the best 3 man CB group in the league. An all pro and up and coming as S's and a top 7 IDL room, you have the makings of, at least, a top 10 D again. Add that to an offense that has improved in every area to add to your potential "generational" QB, we should be looking at another deep run into the playoffs, even if the regular season sees us lose 2 or 3 more games this year,

Just sayin'

 

[captain stone]

You are correct. If Vrabel chooses to have one of the worst backup groups in the league, then Muma might be gone.

Choosing Obiazor and Britt as our backups, with no 5th would be truly horrible.

I agree that we have one of the worst sets of backup LBs in the league. We also have one of the worst pairs of Starting LBs in the league. But would adding Muma really take that much away from our overall suckiness anyway?

OUT: Gibbens, Tavai, Mapu

IN: Britt, Obiazor, nobody

Muma may not be very good, but he does add to total value of this unit. I suspect that with an injury, Muma might get significant reps, but he is useful even as a #4 or #5. If nothing else, he can play lots of ST's.

If the Pats keep 5 LBs, then Muma has the inside track to that #5 spot. I'm not placing him ahead of either Britt or Obiazor until I see all of them hitting players on other teams first...

Bottom Line: I'd feel a lot better about the state of our LBs if one of the Bobbys (Wagner/Okereke) were here.

 

[Ring 6]

Pardon me if I try to resolve this disagreement. One party thinks of Muma as a "gamble" because of his lack of starting snaps and so so results when he has played. The other party opines that is NOT a gamble because they don't have significant money ties to him and if he doesn't work out or if someone beats him out for a roster spot, we can get rid of him without consequence.

I don't know why this went on so long and got so bitter when there really wasn't a disagreement in the first place. You were literally not talking about the same things.

...AND if anyone is interested in my opinion, I'm less worried than most since we know a LOT more about our ILB's than we did this time last season. As of now, Spilane has proven to be a very good run stopper and a smart pass defender, and Ellis came out of nowhere to become by the end of the season, a quality sideline to sideline guy and a better than average pass defender. Neither are exceptional, but both are solid and work well within the total D

So, what if we are unsure about their backups. We are a lot more knowledgeable than we were, as fans, than last season, Meanwhile, we have an interesting group of backups in Britt, Obezor, and Muma, et al who will fight for the right to be this years' Ellis and Spillane

We also have injury question marks at the edge/OLB position but overall, I think we are a bit better there than last season. Jones is an upgrade on Chaisson as a 2 way defender. Landry is on track to being back for camp. Jacas was lifting some serious iron on that so called bad knee with no braces (though I would have him improve his form). Plus the potential of Ponder and Swinson, et al This is a much better start than we had going into last season

Add these position groups to perhaps the best 3 man CB group in the league. An all pro and up and coming as S's and a top 7 IDL room, you have the makings of, at least, a top 10 D again. Add that to an offense that has improved in every area to add to your potential "generational" QB, we should be looking at another deep run into the playoffs, even if the regular season sees us lose 2 or 3 more games this year,

Just sayin'

Ellis starting is a bigger problem than who is the backup.
Ellis has athleticism and that helps him show up sometimes, but he lacks any good LB instincts. He is often out of position in the run game and seems lost in coverage often.
Gibbens was close to beating him out and played almost as many snaps (506 to 491) and we had zero interest in keeping him.
It’s not just LB depth that’s a concern, it’s a starter too, and there doesn’t seem to be anyone to threaten his job this year.

 

[Ring 6]

If Vrabel believes that there is someone worth bringing in, he would have or will do so.

I don't doubt that Vrabel will continue looking, through camp and through the trade deadline. We should also consider the economics. What does Vrabel think a backup ILB is worth? Clearly an ILB is not worth enough to have tendered Gibbens.

I’m not following the argument that a position that looks severely undermanned must be fine because of course if they thoughts so they would have fixed it. That logic says no teams have weaknesses.