The Official Vrabel vs Ben Johnson Discussion Thread

[Stu Pidassle]

Is anyone worried Matt Patricia is the one who hired Ben Johnson in Detroit

That is interesting. At the end of the day MP did not fail because he did not understand football. He failed because he did not have the personality to lead humans.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Influenced, yes but sorry but the perception that Vrabel was inculcated all he knows by BB by is wrong.

Hes is own man. Period.

I see this as his best strength, similar to Tomlin. I would love them to bring in big personality coordinators like Saleh and JMD because I know that Vrabel will keep everyone pointed in his direction. You need that ability to harness the contributions of others without losing control of the reigns of the team. From what I have seen he got fired for giving direct and analytical feedback when it was not wanted, I don't think he was disrespectful to ownership.

Bonus: Does it scare anyone that Vrabel is already being credited for being one step ahead of the game by orchestrating BB's demise with his HOF performance and then waited out Mayo to get the job of his dreams? Wait, I forgot about the part where he started fighting with his owner prior to the HOF acceptance. Definitely chess moves, LOL

 

[archstanton543]

Bonus: Does it scare anyone that Vrabel is already being credited for being one step ahead of the game by orchestrating BB's demise with his HOF performance and then waited out Mayo to get the job of his dreams. Wait, I forgot about the part where he started fighting with his owner prior to the HOF acceptance. Definitely chess moves, LOL

It would scare me if that were remotely true.

 

[Headcase]

Belichick's tree. Vrabel played for him and then Vrabel's first NFL job came under a former Belichick assistant

I think there needs to be a discussion about "trees" O'brian was a football coach for like 13yrs before Bill brought him to New England..like 6yrs for his 20+ yr career have been with BB.

 

[The Gr8est]

Oh oh

How is that a problem?

He interviewed with the Rats too.

I want to be the last team he interviews with, recency bias and all that, plus the Pats will be the last ones to make an impression.

Reports have been consistent that the Pats are his first choice.

 

[signbabybrady]

I think there needs to be a discussion about "trees" O'brian was a football coach for like 13yrs before Bill brought him to New England..like 6yrs for his 20+ yr career have been with BB.

To do it right you'd have to be a real historian. I actually had a similar thought about systems the other day. Who else uses the west coast and EP was what I was wondering but then I also just wondered about the whole history of it too. I've heard a lot about Paul Brown innovating and then Walsh taking it to another level.

Anyway I tend consider a tree as very loose and give any connection credit even if that means someone is part of multiple.

 

[Love The Drake]

Alright Vrabel or Johnson if Vrabel isn’t named By Monday it looks like it will be Johnson.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Alright Vrabel or Johnson if Vrabel isn’t named By Monday it looks like it will be Johnson.

I know BJ would be a first time head coach but I'd rather they take a whole new direction this time. I wouldn't be upset with Vrabel and he might be the right guy but I'd like to see a 180 from this team.

 

[festy1986]

I know BJ would be a first time head coach but I'd rather they take a whole new direction this time. I wouldn't be upset with Vrabel and he might be the right guy but I'd like to see a 180 from this team.

Well this is what I've been saying but I've just accepted it's going to be Vrabel. Kraft has never hired a offensive head coach.

If they bring in Vrabel I can live with it based on what happens at the coordinator positions and who's gonna be making the picks.

If this is just another situation where they promote from within or hire coaches away who the league doesn't want (AVP was like interview 20) and Wolf sticks around then the Krafts aren't serious.

We did all that last year.

 

[n1997y]

This makes Vrabel more attractive to me. Saleh is a horrible head coach, but he is a great DC.

Having Saleh on the Patriots staff would make beating the Jets even more tasty!

 

[n1997y]

How is that a problem?

He interviewed with the Rats too.

I want to be the last team he interviews with, recency bias and all that, plus the Pats will be the last ones to make an impression.

Reports have been consistent that the Pats are his first choice.

I think it’s good for the Pats if he interviews with every team that has an opening, learns good and bad about their organizations, and then brings that knowledge here when he accepts the Patriots HC job.

 

[SVN]

A contrarian opinion i found

 

[n1997y]

I used to work for E2G Sports. My friend who started it has connections and sources. I was just told that Vrabel and Pats had a deal in place since last Tuesday. Last Tuesday, Jonathan and Vrabel had a dinner meeting. The deal is done, Vrabel will be the HC. As for people that will come with him, here are the names I am hearing:

Terrell Williams
Tim Kelly
Tommy Rees
Ryan Cowden(GM?)
Tom Quinn
Roman Phifer

Interesting. If true that seems to say Robert is no longer in control, and Jonathan is running things. Mayo was Robert’s deal, last year and a few years ago when he wrote the succession clause into his contract after an airport departure lounge schmoozefest. Vrabel is now Jonathan’s deal, after they had dinner together and hammered out details of the deal.

But the whole idea that things work that way is so naive and overly simplistic. Robert and Jonathan were talking passionately during the Chargers game. Likely then, or perhaps later, Jonathan says “I think I’ll have dinner with Vrabel next week” and his dad answers “that’s a great idea” and a joint decision has been made. It’s not either one of them making the decision, it’s a collaborative decision. Remember that one of the things RKK stressed when he started pulling Bill’s leash tighter was collaboration, iirc that was stressed as a change in draft management a couple of years ago. This would be an example. And because this decision wasn’t explicit and scripted out in detail question like “when do we tell Jarod? Should we let him coach the last game?” never were asked and answered.

 

[JayNM]

That’s not actually true, the Titans coaches were actually proud of the fact they used analytics to be recognized as one of the best in-game managers because of it.
The other part was about the GM and analytics and then wanting to hire a GM heavy on analytics over Vrabels guy
Vrabel is actually big on using analytics but not a be all end all and his instincts are important as well

Not what I read, but I believe you. These are good news to me

 

[PP2]

A contrarian opinion i found

Fisher had above average QBs in McNair and Young, Vrabel had a polished turd in Tannehill.

Look at where the tits are now in their first season without Vrabel: 3-14.

 

[JMC00]

AVP is still with the team which tells me Vrabel is probably ok with him.

I think he's out when whoever gets hired and brings in their guys. Doesn't seem like the team will let go of any until then, probably keeping them right now so if the incoming coach wants to retain them. But they are letting them go if they want as they allowed Covington to go interview with the Bengals for DC so pretty much says he'll be gone because he isn't gonna be DC and the DC will want their guys. So I think the incoming coach will clear out everyone.

 

[JMC00]

I used to work for E2G Sports. My friend who started it has connections and sources. I was just told that Vrabel and Pats had a deal in place since last Tuesday. Last Tuesday, Jonathan and Vrabel had a dinner meeting. The deal is done, Vrabel will be the HC. As for people that will come with him, here are the names I am hearing:

Terrell Williams
Tim Kelly
Tommy Rees
Ryan Cowden(GM?)
Tom Quinn
Roman Phifer

Terrell Williams- DC
Tim Kelly- OC
Tommy Rees- QB Coach
Tom Quinn (already here)- ST Coach
Ryan Cowden- E.V.P of player personnel
Roman Phifer- Director of player personnel

 

[Lagaffe_07]

A contrarian opinion i found

I’m 2022 his first losing season there he went 7-10 with most injury in the NFL.

 

[KCSVEN]

Not what I read, but I believe you. These are good news to me

There were 2 articles I read, one had a paragraph about the use of analytics by the coaching staff and the pride they had as being among the more advanced coaching staffs in the NFL in using analytics.
The other had a quote from Vrabel below that has been misinterpreted by some that he doesn't use analytics and goes by his instincts.

Like when BB did not call TO before the Wilson/Butler interception play because he saw confusion on the sideline despite the fact analytics say call a TO. Vrabel uses analytics, but he doesn't 100% follow what analytics every time because it is a percentage, and you have to balance that with what you know on the field. Obviously is the analytics were overwhelming in favor he'll do it. But 60% to 40% he balances that out with his knowledge and instincts.

 

[JayNM]

There were 2 articles I read, one had a paragraph about the use of analytics by the coaching staff and the pride they had as being among the more advanced coaching staffs in the NFL in using analytics.
The other had a quote from Vrabel below that has been misinterpreted by some that he doesn't use analytics and goes by his instincts.

Like when BB did not call TO before the Wilson/Butler interception play because he saw confusion on the sideline despite the fact analytics say call a TO. Vrabel uses analytics, but he doesn't 100% follow what analytics every time because it is a percentage, and you have to balance that with what you know on the field. Obviously is the analytics were overwhelming in favor he'll do it. But 60% to 40% he balances that out with his knowledge and instincts.

Ive read this graft of text, without your context, so let me admit that I might be in the misinterpreted tier, but, in my 'research' I did some digging into old titans boards/reddit as well which re-affirmed my first interpretation of the text, so I'll present it first:

starting with main topic, these 50/50-ish decisions, he would use statistic WHEN it aligned with instincts. That doesn't suit well with me, because I understood that in a battle in analytics and instinct, instict would always win. You say he balances analytics with instinct, I've felt* he supersede them in these borderlines cases. Which I still do like.

Now to go to something that is more personal, which is his first paragraph. To me, it's outdated. To say that the data that we are using now is the same as always, expressed in "been using analytics forever", is just not true. Right now, Data anlysis use "Real time data", not really the same as to Probabilities tendencies of positional groupings. It's much much more evolved, but, from this graft, he doesnt transmit that energy of having close affinity to 'micro'-data (and to be clear, obviously Im biased since I live in the data analytics world, in a way)

With that out, I wasn't aware that the FO in Ten was this enthusiastic about data approach. This was almost 10 years ago, and it the technology world, it's a lot, so he needs to be ready for more. If, as you say, isn't against it, then I'd be glad to have him onboard, making his OC choice less worrysome - I do not know enough about Tim Kelly to provide an opinion

*and again, felt is the word here, not "know" or "think", as I have grown distant from the NFL in general the past years, and only dug into this very recently