So how do you grade this year’s draft?

[crawhammer]

With other good WR’s available to step in. You think real world football is fantasy football.

In the real world the replacements for Godwin and Brown were Cyril Grayson and Breshad Perriman. Grayson has 11 receptions for his entire career. Perriman couldn't even cut it with the Jets. Don't sound so ridiculous!

So in short… it doesn’t take a superstar QB at all, it just takes a QB to play well. Like Flacco, Williams, Dilfer and Eli… twice. You really made a salient point there… what it was not really sure beyond collapsing the unicorn QB theory. If we can list ten or more average QB’s who won a ring then that’s not an outlier.

You can't list 10 or more average QBs to win the Super Bowl. You can't do it. Especially over the last 30 years...

1. Trent Dilfer... the Ravens team wasn't great. Their defense was. Dilfer is the only SB winning QB over the last 30 years who was completely useless.

2. Brad Johnson... same deal as above... the Bucs team wasn't great. Their defense was. The Bucs offense was pretty awful in fact. Johnson gets high marks for low turnovers, otherwise he wasn't doing much, including in the SB which came down to Rich Gannon getting destroyed by the Bucs defense.

3. Joe Flacco... the Ravens weren't even that good in 2011... they nearly choked up their playoff spot with a 1-4 regular season finish. Flacco went berserk in the postseason and carried a mediocre team to a SB title.

4. Nick Foles... torched the Patriots defense and won SB MVP.

That's your list. Two bums carried by all-time defenses, a third who carried his team on his back, and a fourth who had the game giftwrapped.

Brady played on the best teams, had the most playoff starts by far, so he has most of the records.

Brady won 40% of his playoff games with game-winning drives. No other all-time great QB is even close to that... Elway being the closest at 29%. Montana 22%, Bradshaw 21%, P. Manning 7%, Rodgers 10% (and you wonder why Rodgers is stuck on 1 ring).

Edelman and Amendola hold most playoff receiving records, it’s due to volume.

I'm pretty sure Edelman doesn't hold any playoff receiving records... like literally 0. And in what universe does Amendola even register on most playoff receiving lists?

Stop hijacking threads with your Brady ***********.

I'm only mentioning Brady when it's relevant to our discussion. How exactly does one leave Brady out of a discussion about quarterback play in the postseason?

 

[Sfpat]

I don’t think I ever said he’d be as successful elsewhere, but I don’t think giving him 10% credit is fair either. Simply based on numbers and what we’ve seen with/without. If they don’t draft Brady, who knows what happens…BB could’ve been fired and Brady might not have made the league. But again, focusing on the supporting cast here isn’t a great argument imo. I do agree, you need the team to be successful, but what I think you skip over is how having Brady could’ve helped other units look better than they were, or for us to at least talk about them more. Like I said, this year all we talk about is how the defense crumbled, the team fell apart and couldn’t score against good teams. They had good units statistically, the outcome wasn’t the same as most years during the dynasty. To me, I think it’s obvious why. But I respect your opinion in disagreeing. I just think given how important the qb is, 10% is insultingly low

So do we blame Brady for the 10 years or so without a SB win? Asking for a friend

 

[TheRainMaker]

So do we blame Brady for the 10 years or so without a SB win? Asking for a friend

They are both to blame. Brady had in game blunders during that 10 year drought, but you can also point to Bill’s poor roster management during those 10 years. He let the core group of guys he had during the 1st title run erode around them (specifically on defense). He had the best 3-4 D-line in the league, but Bill was dreadful replacing any talent with the 2nd and 3rd level.

 

[Sfpat]

They definitely don’t win 6, but again as of today. Brady has shown he can win without Bill. The other way hasn’t happened yet. Let’s see what the future holds

It was 20 year veteran Brady who won without BB. That is after 20 years of BB coaching and his learning. One would expect him to be able to take the lessens learned to a loaded team and win. We'll never know if he could have done it without 20 years of BB coaching. Brady was the perfect pupil and BB was the perfect teacher.

 

[Sfpat]

They are both to blame. Brady had in game blunders during that 10 year drought, but you can also point to Bill’s poor roster management during those 10 years. He let the core group of guys he had during the 1st title run erode around them.

But the premise of some on this board is that Brady is the one responsible for the wins. Lets be fair, if responsible for wins, then responsible for non-wins

 

[TheRainMaker]

But the premise of some on this board is that Brady is the one responsible for the wins. Lets be fair, if responsible for wins, then responsible for non-wins

Yes, Tom’s had his fair share of blunders.

 

[mgteich]

Without an edge rusher (It looks as though the Patriots were ready to draft Jermaine Johnson before the Jets orchestrated a great trade up [Is this franchise finally getting its act together?] and snagged him at 26) or a beefy run-stopping NT or a legitimate outside CB, one has to give a grade of INCOMPLETE.

Of course. It is required that every need be met through the draft. Otherwise the draft deserves an low grade or an incomplete/

 

[Wozzy]

I think the point youre missing is if...Brady was such a small % worth of the success...Why cant the guy thats built all those successful teams muster up any of that success without Brady? (Again, career not over but as of now)

BB won games and scored points with Mac, JimmyG and Cassel... winning Super Bowl's is hard. JimmyG went to a Super Bowl with another team, Cassel made the Pro Bowl... saying they never won a ring is not a slam. Marino, Jim Kelly, Tarkenton... there are plenty of great QB's with no rings, there are plenty of "good" ones who haven't...

But there's also quite a few "average to good" QB's that have rings. You have to be on the right team and play well. Joe Gibbs won three different rings with three different "average/good" journeyman QB's... there's no magic formula beyond team.

You need to be the best and play the best, that's true at QB... it's true of every position group on the team. Those teams win rings. Nobody does it alone. QB's are the most important position, and the most overrated.

 

[Wozzy]

In the real world the replacements for Godwin and Brown were Cyril Grayson and Breshad Perriman. Grayson has 11 receptions for his entire career. Perriman couldn't even cut it with the Jets. Don't sound so ridiculous!

Yeah, without those two all Tom had was Mike Evans, Gronk, Tyler Johnson, Scotty Miller, Cameron Brate, Fournette, OJ Howard...

How he got by (won rings) with late round picks Edelman, Troy Brown and undrafted arena football league star David Patten I'll never know.

The Buc's won in 2020 because they learned to run the ball just before the playoffs, they lost in 2021 because they forgot to run the ball.

You can't list 10 or more average QBs to win the Super Bowl. You can't do it. Especially over the last 30 years...

1. Trent Dilfer... the Ravens team wasn't great. Their defense was. Dilfer is the only SB winning QB over the last 30 years who was completely useless.

You're right, it was all defense. Their RB's were Jamal Lewis (NFL Offensive Player of the Year, First-team All-Pro, Pro Bowl, NFL rushing yards leader, NFL 2000s All-Decade Team) and Priest Holmes (NFL Offensive Player of the Year, First-team All-Pro, Pro Bowl, 2× NFL rushing touchdowns leader, NFL rushing yards leader, NFL scoring leader, Kansas City Chiefs Hall of Fame)... They had Shannon Sharpe at TE (3× Super Bowl champion, 5× All-Pro, 8× Pro Bowl, NFL 1990s All-Decade Team), Quadry Ismail, Travis Taylor and Jonathan Ogden (9× All-Pro, 11× Pro Bowl, NFL 2000s All-Decade Team, eventual HOF).

Were any of those ^ guys great?

2. Brad Johnson... same deal as above... the Bucs team wasn't great. Their defense was. The Bucs offense was pretty awful in fact. Johnson gets high marks for low turnovers, otherwise he wasn't doing much, including in the SB which came down to Rich Gannon getting destroyed by the Bucs defense.

Do I have to count the number of Pro Bowlers on Tampa (Mike Alstott, Keyshawn Johnson, Keenan McCardell, Martin Gramatica) also?

3. Joe Flacco... the Ravens weren't even that good in 2011... they nearly choked up their playoff spot with a 1-4 regular season finish. Flacco went berserk in the postseason and carried a mediocre team to a SB title.

I think you mean 2012 and no... Ray Rice, Anquan Boldin, Marshal Yanda, Matt Birk, Justin Tucker, Dennis Pitta, Torrey Smith, Michael Oher... none of those guys were good. The team was "average," lol... even though every starting O-Lineman on the team but one has a history of Pro Bowls and All Pro teams... they were "average?"

Fantasy football isn't real football... QB-centrics like yourself need to realize that.

4. Nick Foles... torched the Patriots defense and won SB MVP.

Nick Foles beat Tom Brady, but "team" isn't what wins rings... only in some QB fanboy's head does this make sense.

Tom's magic must have shut off that night, all he did was pass for 505 yards and 3 TD's.

And it's not that Donta Hightower, 350 pound Alan Branch, Jon Jones and Patrick Chung were unavailable due to injury... it's because Nick Foles magically got good for one night... then lost his magic powers afterwards. Got it.

That's your list. Two bums carried by all-time defenses, a third who carried his team on his back, and a fourth who had the game giftwrapped.

That's five of the ten or more guys I posted a few posts back. And you're excuse as far as I can tell is these "average/good" QB's gained magical powers temporarily, which elevated them to this upper echelon level of QB'ing... then next season lost their magic powers and were banished back to average status again. Sounds legit.

Either that or you're just proving my point for me. A good team can win with just "average to good" at QB... which we know because we have so many examples. Hell Eli beat Tom twice.

Brady won 40% of his playoff games with game-winning drives. No other all-time great QB is even close to that... Elway being the closest at 29%. Montana 22%, Bradshaw 21%, P. Manning 7%, Rodgers 10% (and you wonder why Rodgers is stuck on 1 ring).

I'm pretty sure Edelman doesn't hold any playoff receiving records... like literally 0. And in what universe does Amendola even register on most playoff receiving lists?

I'm only mentioning Brady when it's relevant to our discussion. How exactly does one leave Brady out of a discussion about quarterback play in the postseason?

Use another example. You do realize Tom Brady didn't create football in six days and rest on the 7th right? There were great QB's before him, and there are great QB's playing currently besides Tom.

Cut the cord buddy, there's a whole world out there...

At the very least stay on topic of threads and stop dragging us down these Brady ball washing rabbit holes. Many of us don't believe in magic or superheroes.

 

[All3Phases]

It was 20 year veteran Brady who won without BB. That is after 20 years of BB coaching and his learning. One would expect him to be able to take the lessens learned to a loaded team and win. We'll never know if he could have done it without 20 years of BB coaching. Brady was the perfect pupil and BB was the perfect teacher.

Very fair, although I don’t think it’s as easy as some patriot fans make it seem. But we have seen him win, we don’t have that perspective with Bill yet.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, they could have. Just not at the level they were able to last year. And Brady's salary wasn't the major problem, they had bigger issues causing them headaches. His was just a small piece of other personnel miscues.

And I'm not criticizing, it's just a fact that he would have stayed had they been willing to commit to him and make him feel like they wanted him. That part isn't my opinion, that's all documented. Again, am I mad? No, because things worked out. I've already said in the past I didn't agree with it, but I understand why they did it. But trying to continue the discussion about how they couldn't have kept him and made it work just isn't true. At the same time, it would have required a longer commitment to push his salary out so they could continue having money to work with. They didn't want to, and it was what it was.

Letting him walk at that point, combined with some other moves, set them up to be able to sign who they signed while only enduring one bad year. Obviously, not all those names would have been added had he stayed, so I get it.

But they've won titles with less and I feel like had Antonio Brown not been in trouble, they probably could have done more damage in 2019 and who knows what might have happened. You make it sound like that team was terrible, they weren't that bad (7th in points scored per game, #1 in yards allowed per game on defense). One key issue there was the fact Brady knew he was done, so that didn't exactly help the situation. That and the fact he didn't have anyone to throw to because they didn't have the one threat they needed to open guys up.

To your point "would have, could have" - but that team was one key offensive player and a QB who hadn't mentally moved on from being better than it was, and maybe even a contender. Obviously, we'll never know because that's not how it went down.

The numbers and what actually happened says they couldn’t have freed money and improved the team in any reasonable manner. You won’t change my opinion with “ yes they could”. They lost many players. I think you are missing the fact that he was paid $0 by the Patriots in 2020 so no matter how cap friendly you make the contract it’s still going to be a cap hit and a hefty one, surely at least 20 mill.


They were terrible the second half of 2019. Worst they played in the Belichick era, especially on offense. They finished 4-5 including the playoffs. They scored 20.3 ppg compared to 33.3 the first half and allowed 20.4 vs 7.7 the first half. When that season ended, they had no choice but to let players walk, kept a few of their own FAs, and had no real money to sign new ones.
When they signed Newton they had $1,000,000 of cap room.
If you want to show me examples of how they could have kept Brady, paid him and still had net gains in free agency, be my guest, but it wasn’t happening.


Yes the could have kept Brady. If they did the roster would have crumbled around him and would not have been good enough to win a championship during Brady’s shelf life. They would have struggled through mediocrity until he retired, then starting rebuilding. This way the rebuild started sooner.

And yes, they could have signed some free agents in 2021, but they had about 65 mill, 50 mill of which wouldn’t have been there with 2 years of paying Brady taken off the cap and the carry forward due to opt outs.

I’ve looked deep into this, there is just no way they were putting a better team in the field in 2020 than the one that sucked at the end of 2019 even paying Brady zero, much less accounting for his cost too.

Im not judging whether I like it or not, I’m just assessing the situation. The real question is do you prefer a few years if Brady and a bad team then a rebuild, or foregoing those years to rebuild now.

 

[Pats2000]

I think there’d be a few flaws in this argument, undoubtedly the dynasty never happens without both. But if it’s simply who hired Brady gets the credit, then wouldn’t you need to give Kraft the most credit since he hired BB?

Also, I agree 100% that Bill taught Brady a lot, I also don’t think it’s fair to just say he created Brady and what he was and what he became. Clearly he was a special player pretty quickly, intangibly and performance wise. If it’s simply just rostering and molding a player, he’d have the success without him, which he currently doesn’t have. For example, McCarthy certainly helped mold Rodgers during his career. Look at his college tape to his NFL tape, but I think it’s obvious to most that Rodgers is responsible for the success GB has

Brady had a ridiculous amount of support those first 5 or 6 years. Although the 2006 team was cringe worthy from offensive skill player point of view. Brady got the benefit of hard hitting ball hawking defenses that almost always kept tough games close

 

[Pats2000]

You're forgetting to give Belichick credit for Brady's success in Tampa Bay.

You really could, considering it was BB for years giving Brady all the answers to the test before each game. Teaching him how to read a defense

 

[Pats2000]

Good question, my perspective was giving a % on the two men most responsible, which are Brady and BB. Between them id probably go 60-40, 55/45 Brady over BB. But again, thats using what we have seen of them without each other. In another 5 years that could change.


I think on most occurrences you need a great passing game throughout a season, its hard to get to a SB and win it. Your passing game, in most cases will need to carry you at points during the season in tough environments. There are of course exceptions, and things can be done differently. 13 Seahawks, 15 Broncos, 2000 ravens, etc, etc. Without elite QB play, your team building needs to be pretty much perfect everywhere else. I think thats pretty hard to do. Especially in the modern era. Alot of the guys you listed are not really this generation, where theres more emphasis on the passing game now.


I dont think everything is exact. Just because youre the best quarterback doesnt mean you win it all, but put it in perspective...With Brady, the Patriots were essentially guaranteed to be in the final 4, that gives you a shot every year. Without, BB coached teams arent near that. A good example would be the Chiefs with/without Mahomes. Do I only give him 10% of credit, when all they do is go to the final 4 every year he plays? Before him they didnt do that.

Side note, I dont think the Bucs were nearly the same team as the previous year

Lets see how well Mahommes does without Hill. I dont see that offense being quite as prolific this year. Mahommes is a great QB, but he also has the best or 2nd best offensive talent around him.

 

[All3Phases]

BB won games and scored points with Mac, JimmyG and Cassel... winning Super Bowl's is hard. JimmyG went to a Super Bowl with another team, Cassel made the Pro Bowl... saying they never won a ring is not a slam. Marino, Jim Kelly, Tarkenton... there are plenty of great QB's with no rings, there are plenty of "good" ones who haven't...

But there's also quite a few "average to good" QB's that have rings. You have to be on the right team and play well. Joe Gibbs won three different rings with three different "average/good" journeyman QB's... there's no magic formula beyond team.

You need to be the best and play the best, that's true at QB... it's true of every position group on the team. Those teams win rings. Nobody does it alone. QB's are the most important position, and the most overrated.

I’d say your first line says it all, hes won games without Brady, hes scored points without Brady. Hes coached Pro Bowl quarterbacks who werent Brady. Hes won 1 playoff game without Brady. Totally agree, winning or even getting to a SB is hard! In comparison with Brady again, 9 SBs, 6 wins, 13 CCGs. Thats a far cry from saying winning is hard. They did it regularly and constantly. To me, that says a lot

 

[All3Phases]

Brady had a ridiculous amount of support those first 5 or 6 years. Although the 2006 team was cringe worthy from offensive skill player point of view. Brady got the benefit of hard hitting ball hawking defenses that almost always kept tough games close

Hes had a ton of support most of his years! I totally agree.

 

[All3Phases]

The numbers and what actually happened says they couldn’t have freed money and improved the team in any reasonable manner. You won’t change my opinion with “ yes they could”. They lost many players. I think you are missing the fact that he was paid $0 by the Patriots in 2020 so no matter how cap friendly you make the contract it’s still going to be a cap hit and a hefty one, surely at least 20 mill.


They were terrible the second half of 2019. Worst they played in the Belichick era, especially on offense. They finished 4-5 including the playoffs. They scored 20.3 ppg compared to 33.3 the first half and allowed 20.4 vs 7.7 the first half. When that season ended, they had no choice but to let players walk, kept a few of their own FAs, and had no real money to sign new ones.
When they signed Newton they had $1,000,000 of cap room.
If you want to show me examples of how they could have kept Brady, paid him and still had net gains in free agency, be my guest, but it wasn’t happening.


Yes the could have kept Brady. If they did the roster would have crumbled around him and would not have been good enough to win a championship during Brady’s shelf life. They would have struggled through mediocrity until he retired, then starting rebuilding. This way the rebuild started sooner.

And yes, they could have signed some free agents in 2021, but they had about 65 mill, 50 mill of which wouldn’t have been there with 2 years of paying Brady taken off the cap and the carry forward due to opt outs.

I’ve looked deep into this, there is just no way they were putting a better team in the field in 2020 than the one that sucked at the end of 2019 even paying Brady zero, much less accounting for his cost too.

Im not judging whether I like it or not, I’m just assessing the situation. The real question is do you prefer a few years if Brady and a bad team then a rebuild, or foregoing those years to rebuild now.

Youre referring to the 2020 team, but what about 2021 and beyond? They paid $160 mil gtd to FAs in the 2021 offseason, they would have had a large chunk of that money to spend on FAs if Brady was there under the TB deal. I dont see any reason why they wouldnt have been competitive in 2021 and for the future. Your two bolded statements contradict each other, one says until he retires and the next like says they wouldve sucked in 2020.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Scar's take on the Cole Pick...basically he says not to underestimate Belichick and drafting offensive linemen

Dante Scarnecchia shares thoughts on Patriots selecting Cole Strange

Dante Scarnecchia has optimism for Cole Strange.

patriotswire.usatoday.com

 

[Wozzy]

Youre referring to the 2020 team, but what about 2021 and beyond? They paid $160 mil gtd to FAs in the 2021 offseason, they would have had a large chunk of that money to spend on FAs if Brady was there under the TB deal. I dont see any reason why they wouldnt have been competitive in 2021 and for the future. Your two bolded statements contradict each other, one says until he retires and the next like says they wouldve sucked in 2020.

They had that money in 2021 partly because they moved on from Brady in 2020 and cleared a bunch of cap and dead cap. You can have one or the other, you can't have both.

Tom wasn't hanging around for a rebuild at 43 year's old... nor should he.

It was the right move for both sides. Let it go.

 

[Wozzy]

I’d say your first line says it all, hes won games without Brady, hes scored points without Brady. Hes coached Pro Bowl quarterbacks who werent Brady. Hes won 1 playoff game without Brady. Totally agree, winning or even getting to a SB is hard! In comparison with Brady again, 9 SBs, 6 wins, 13 CCGs. Thats a far cry from saying winning is hard. They did it regularly and constantly. To me, that says a lot

He had Tom for 20 of the 27 years he coached, the majority of the 7 years he didn't were the first years of both teams he coached... he was turning a dumpster fire around, flipping a roster.

Comparing what a GM/Coach does to a what a free agent player does is silly.

A player can leave to a contender and win instantly. A GM inherits a disaster and it takes multiple seasons to clean it up. Look at the first 2-3 years of most of the great coaches in history... those are losing seasons where they are getting their culture, systems and players in place.