Jonathan Jones Tender

[mgteich]

Sure, but that not really a 4/$12M.

Throw some good incentives into the multi year deal, sweeten it and make it harder for him to spurn it. NLTBE for cap purposes but within his ability to achieve if he stays healthy and plays to his abilities.

 

[luuked]

Logan was a starting outside corner, which I don't think J Jones will be, at least here.

He's more of a slot, nickle back. IMO think a faster Kyle Arrington.

Logan Ryan was a slot corner. Now he was versatile and sometimes had to match up on the outside when we played man and the opponents motioned, on some snaps when we switched it up to give QBs more to think about or due to matchup reasons but his most effective position was slot corner.

Now I agree that Jones is more limited and maybe closer to Arrington in that sense. My point is that I dont think we will pay for that kind of depth but replace him with a player on a rookie contract.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

We have duke and Crossen. Plus B.B. can find defensive backs anywhere.

I agree. Crossen is quite fast. BB seems good at finding DBs, but can't draft a WR. Funny that.

 

[Biffins]

We have duke and Crossen. Plus B.B. can find defensive backs anywhere.

Yeah. BB can find defensive backs anywhere. Especially in the 2nd round like Darius Butler, Ras-I-Dowling, Tavon Wilson, Jordan Richards, Cyrus Jones. Duke Dawson, 2nd round DB last year has a lot to live up to with that illustrious 2nd round draft pick DB history of last decade.

 

[SBLIII]

Yeah. BB can find defensive backs anywhere. Especially in the 2nd round like Darius Butler, Ras-I-Dowling, Tavon Wilson, Jordan Richards, Cyrus Jones. Duke Dawson, 2nd round DB last year has a lot to live up to with that illustrious 2nd round draft pick DB history of last decade.

I'm scared he is the next bust.

 

[Family]

Logan Ryan was a slot corner

Ryan was not primarily a slot corner when he signed the big contract and that's not what he got the big bucks for. Plus, it's not fair to call him a slot corner, just because he was versatile enough to play both positions when they went nickle.

JC Jackson is a better comparison to Logan Ryan. Jones is a special team player who is now evolving into a pretty good slot corner. If that adds more value ok, but he still will be closer to Arrington's numbers than Ryan's, after taking into consideration the higher cap in 2019.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Logan Ryan was a slot corner. Now he was versatile and sometimes had to match up on the outside when we played man and the opponents motioned, on some snaps when we switched it up to give QBs more to think about or due to matchup reasons but his most effective position was slot corner.

Now I agree that Jones is more limited and maybe closer to Arrington in that sense. My point is that I dont think we will pay for that kind of depth but replace him with a player on a rookie contract.

Jones is solid and unspectacular. I'm not even sure he is worth the 2nd rd tender $

 

[luuked]

Ryan was not primarily a slot corner when he signed the big contract and that's not what he got the big bucks for. Plus, it's not fair to call him a slot corner, just because he was versatile enough to play both positions when they went nickle.

Yeah. No. Ryan was our slot corner. What the Titans did with him I could not care less about because it doesn't concern the Patriots valuation of him or my entire point.

 

[Family]

Yeah. No. Ryan was our slot corner. What the Titans did with him I could not care less about because it doesn't concern the Patriots valuation of him or my entire point.

2016 New England Patriots Statistics & Players | Pro-Football-Reference.com

He's listed as the RCB.

Who else started on that side? Rowe only played half the games.

 

[RobertWeathers]

2016 New England Patriots Statistics & Players | Pro-Football-Reference.com

He's listed as the RCB.

Who else started on that side? Rowe only played half the games.

Rowe played a ton down the stretch with Ryan also out there in 2016.

Depending on the matchup Ryan would play on the outside as well but he went to the slot when Rowe was out there.

IIRC Harmon would also start every now and then.

 

[luuked]

2016 New England Patriots Statistics & Players | Pro-Football-Reference.com

He's listed as the RCB.

Who else started on that side? Rowe only played half the games.

Whenever we went to nickel -- which was a lot in 2016 -- Ryan was the slot corner because that was his best fit (quick not fast, great tackler, amazing when disguising blitzes from inside).

To quote Phil Perry:

Logan Ryan played more snaps last season as a slot corner, or "star," than any other Patriots player in the last decade.

His 309 snaps in the slot, according to Pro Football Focus, were more than the team-leading 201 snaps in the slot that safety Patrick Chung saw in 2015. They were more than the 251 that Chung played inside in 2010. The player who came closest to Ryan's 2016 mark was Kyle Arrington in 2012 (265) and 2013 (260).
...
Chung (147 slot snaps in 2016), Butler (52), Justin Coleman (43), Cyrus Jones (40), Rowe (35), Jonathan Jones (33) and Devin McCourty (30) all saw time inside last season, per PFF.

via Who will replace Logan Ryan at slot corner for New England Patriots?

And, yes, it was Rowe who took over as outside corner over Ryan after he was acquired. I think you are forgetting how Ryan was benched because he was terrible on the outside that year.

This is from October 2016:



Hell people around here wanted to convert him to a safety around that time.

 

[Family]

Whenever we went to nickel -- which was a lot in 2016 -- Ryan was the slot corner because that was his best fit (quick not fast, great tackler, amazing when disguising blitzes from inside).

Yes you are making my point, which is you are penalizing Logan Ryan for being versatile. During the season Ryan played 897 total snaps, so 588 (about 2/3rds of the snaps were as an outside corner. When Rowe came back, the Pats were better with Rowe/Ryan than Ryan/Chung. Some of that was because they lacked a good enough backup for Chung and some of it was that Logan Ryan was good at two positions.

But most importantly, the conversation began because you were comparing Jonathan Jones to Logan Ryan in terms of salary offered by another team in free agency. Do you think Logan Ryan would have been offered anywhere near 10 million if he was exclusively a slot corner? That's all J. Jones currently is on defense. He has special teams value as well, but you don't get big bucks for that.

Logan Ryan clearly showed in 2016 that he was a premium #2 corner. Like Arrington, I don't think J. Jones ever will.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Jones is solid and unspectacular. I'm not even sure he is worth the 2nd rd tender $

RFA tenders are not guaranteed.

 

[luuked]

Yes you are making my point, which is you are penalizing Logan Ryan for being versatile. During the season Ryan played 897 total snaps, so 588 (about 2/3rds of the snaps were as an outside corner. When Rowe came back, the Pats were better with Rowe/Ryan than Ryan/Chung. Some of that was because they lacked a good enough backup for Chung and some of it was that Logan Ryan was good at two positions.

But most importantly, the conversation began because you were comparing Jonathan Jones to Logan Ryan in terms of salary offered by another team in free agency. Do you think Logan Ryan would have been offered anywhere near 10 million if he was exclusively a slot corner? That's all J. Jones currently is on defense. He has special teams value as well, but you don't get big bucks for that.

Logan Ryan clearly showed in 2016 that he was a premium #2 corner. Like Arrington, I don't think J. Jones ever will.

Logan Ryan was bad on the outside and got benched in 2016. We traded for Rowe who immediately took over for him upon being healthy. Ryan then went on to play a record number of snaps on the inside and was among the leagues best slot corners. Those are all facts.

Now how you can change all of that around to say "he was good in both positions" I don't know because he literally lost his job as outside corner. Similar to Arrington he was able to match up with certain receiver types but in most cases his skills translated poorly to playing outside.

But whatever man, this is getting into the same absurd territory as your takes on Izzo taking over for Allen in the preseason.

 

[RobertWeathers]

RFA tenders are not guaranteed.

What post are you responding to?

 

[mgteich]

RFA tenders are not guaranteed.

This is true, and I guess this is the reason that we are able to get these players to sign longer term deals. As an aside, very few RFA players mover to other teams.

It would seem that a team should almost always tender a player, along as the team isn't really close to the cap limit. After all, they can cut him whenever they need the cap money.
Or better yet, they can wait to see who they secure in free agency and in the draft. then they can cut him. An RFA player provide no-cost insurance, even if the team doesn't really want the player, and hopes to find upgrades.

 

[Family]

Logan Ryan was bad on the outside and got benched in 2016. We traded for Rowe who immediately took over for him upon being healthy. Ryan then went on to play a record number of snaps on the inside and was among the leagues best slot corners. Those are all facts.

Now how you can change all of that around to say "he was good in both positions" I don't know because he literally lost his job as outside corner. Similar to Arrington he was able to match up with certain receiver types but in most cases his skills translated poorly to playing outside.

But whatever man, this is getting into the same absurd territory as your takes on Izzo taking over for Allen in the preseason.

October means nothing.

Over the season Ryan played 86% of the snaps, fourth defensively on the team. By the playoffs he was without dispute the starting corner, no matter how they lined up, (many games at the end of the season he played 100% of the snaps) and the Titans (and probably other teams) viewed him this way as well. That's why he got 10 million. Is J. Jones anywhere close to being that player ? That's what this discussion is about.

And we will see how good Izzo is when he plays a season. I will admit if I am wrong, something that seems hard on this board.

 

[zimmy]

I'd give him the 2nd round tender. But I'd first try and get him to sign a 2 or 3 year deal with more guarantees to keep the cap number a bit lower this year.

 

[luuked]

Over the season Ryan played 86% of the snaps, fourth defensively on the team. By the playoffs he was without dispute the starting corner, no matter how they lined up, (many games at the end of the season he played 100% of the snaps) and the Titans (and probably other teams) viewed him this way as well.

Ryan became a slot corner the moment we had someone better on the outside. For the rest of the season until his contract ended. That is what he did well. You are essentially arguing that lining up outside, sucking to the point of being benched but piling up snap counts there makes him versatile. I don't think that makes much sense. Thats like saying Elandon Roberts circa 2016 was a versatile LB because he also has coverage responsibilities on snaps.

That's why he got 10 million. Is J. Jones anywhere close to being that player ? That's what this discussion is about.

Someone will offer him more than 3-4 million a year and he will be gone because BB will just plug in the next guy. This is what the discussion was about. About the possibility of keeping him around.

And we will see how good Izzo is when he plays a season. I will admit if I am wrong, something that seems hard on this board.

You were already wrong. There is no "we will see" anymore. You suggested to replace an elite blocker in Allen with a rookie TE who had neither the body nor the mental understanding of all blocking schemes because of money. You were also told that a restructure would happen about 3 weeks before it actually went down. Your only response was to call the person trying to explain to you why you were wrong to use money as argument as "arrogant" and "condescending".

 

[Vatahala]

I would go with the 2nd round tender because I feel either Flores or Patricia might be willing to give up a draft pick for JJ.