Can the Patriots use RPO?

[convertedpatsfan]

RPO=Offense. Offense isnt our issue . We have the GOAT .
What are these threads ??

There are a lot of bad threads lately. But I don't think this is one of them.

There's a certain "arrogance" in this thread that the offense is fine, or that we don't need to take things from college of all places. And that's fine.

But that's not how Belichick operates.

He's the GOAT (other than Super Bowl 52). And he liberally borrows from the college game. He is always visiting campuses or having college coaches visit the Patriots to talk about football and trends and new concepts that are emerging.

Imagine an NBA coach constantly asking a D-League or college coach what they think is new and effective.

The spread concept is one area the Patriots used to go from a top-10 offense consistently in the early Brady era to a top-3 offense consistently. There are elements of Chip Kelly's offense in there too, even though Brady can't run.

You also don't have to take everything or nothing. You can take the bits that work for you. Obviously Brady isn't a big threat to run, but that doesn't mean you have to throw the entire thing out. The Falcons have used RPO concepts recently too, and nobody is going to confuse Matt Ryan for Michael Vick (fortunately for the dogs of Atlanta).

We already incorporate some elements of RPO. Traditional play-action passing has the OL move back to pass block, but the Patriots almost always run block in that situation so the LBs can't figure out the play based on the OL.

But Brady is a super computer able to process what's going on with the defense. RPO usually relies on a few "keys" that the QB needs to figure out. Brady does that and more. And the offense has matured to the point that Brady can have two completely different plays based on the defense, not just toggle between a run or pass. He can alter the entire formation, or the routes will vary depending on the defense.

So I think it's somewhere in the middle. There are elements that are useful, and BB will always look for an advantage anywhere and everywhere, even the level "below" him, which some may see as ridiculous. But it's one of the reasons he continues to evolve and grow with the game, while many of the all-time greats eventually became obsolete as the game passed them by (looking at you Shula).

 

[DarrylS]

A "shiny beads reaction", it works for Philadelphia and Chris Collingsworth hypes it over and over and over again in the SB, ergo it must be good for the Patriots..

An aside cannot stand Collingsworth and his bullcrap speaking out the side of his mouth.. STFU and just tell the viewers what you are seeing... he irritates me immensely.

 

[maineman209]

Belichick got out coached by an RPO offense.

Muh. That's so annoying.

I'm not sure that the Eagles actually ran RPO on all that many plays in the SB. It possible that a defensive gameplan/scheme to defend against more RPO left them vulnerable in other ways. However, the defensive problems were largely in execution. From the get-go, a lot of players were whiffing on tackles, including those who are typically the most reliable tacklers.

 

[Kontradiction]

A "shiny beads reaction", it works for Philadelphia and Chris Collingsworth hypes it over and over and over again in the SB, ergo it must be good for the Patriots..

An aside cannot stand Collingsworth and his bullcrap speaking out the side of his mouth.. STFU and just tell the viewers what you are seeing... he irritates me immensely.

Eagles fans feel the same. There’s a petition out there for him to not call another Eagles game again.

 

[IllegalContact]

Foles runs just enough to keep the defense honest. Brady doesn’t even do that. They ain’t running the RPO.

No he doesn’t

 

[PP2]

I'm not sure that the Eagles actually ran RPO on all that many plays in the SB. It possible that a defensive gameplan/scheme to defend against more RPO left them vulnerable in other ways. However, the defensive problems were largely in execution. From the get-go, a lot of players were whiffing on tackles, including those who are typically the most reliable tacklers.

They surprisingly didn't run that much RPO- more PA's actually, if I remember right. (I won't go back and review). Eagles picked on the mismatches right out of the gate, which is why I'm firmly convinced that the outcome is different if MB was in the game.

 

[BradyFTW!]

A lot of the responses seem to be assuming that the QB has to be the one running, which isn't the case and isn't really what the Eagles do, at least not a lot of the time. The run part of the option can be a hand off, and often is with them. And that's how the Pats would have to do it if they were inclined to introduce it to a Brady-led offense in any capacity. But the main benefit of that type of RPO is that it creates a really easy read for the QB, which is what makes it so effective in college and with young guys. For the Pats, though, I don't think it would be all that great just because the problem it solves isn't really a problem for the Pats and won't be as long as Brady is their QB.

The RPO is all about forcing the defense to declare what it's stopping and then reacting by giving them the opposite, and the Pats offense already does that but in a different way. The Pats do it with pre-snap motion and relying on Brady to read the defense and audible at the line as needed. The mental degree of difficulty is way higher, but that's like half the benefit of having Brady in the first place: he crushes at that stuff.

 

[Kontradiction]

No he doesn’t

He had 11 rushing attempts in the final three games of the regular season this year and 5 in the postseason. So yes, he does. He's not Vick and he never would be, but they do have designed runs in there for him. Pat Kirwin even acknowledged that fact when he was breaking down their offense before the Super Bowl. His exact words were my words here. Further, Wentz had 64 rushing attempts throughout the season. Some of those were plays where he looked to pass first and others were plays where he pulled the ball after making the read and took off. So they do have designed plays where the quarterback pulls the ball down and runs with it in that offense just like they do in any other offense designed around the RPO. Teams that run the RPO almost always prefer to have a mobile quarterback because it's another wrinkle that the defense has to respect. This is why you see mobile quarterbacks running that offense at both the college and pro levels.

 

[IllegalContact]

He had 11 rushing attempts in the final three games of the regular season this year and 5 in the postseason. So yes, he does. He's not Vick and he never would be, but they do have designed runs in there for him. Pat Kirwin even acknowledged that fact when he was breaking down their offense before the Super Bowl. His exact words were my words here. Further, Wentz had 64 rushing attempts throughout the season. Some of those were plays where he looked to pass first and others were plays where he pulled the ball after making the read and took off. So they do have designed plays where the quarterback pulls the ball down and runs with it in that offense just like they do in any other offense designed around the RPO. Teams that run the RPO almost always prefer to have a mobile quarterback because it's another wrinkle that the defense has to respect. This is why you see mobile quarterbacks running that offense at both the college and pro levels.

You do realize that taking a knee counts as a rush, don’t you?

11 rushes for 3 yards

 

[BradyFTW!]

There are a lot of bad threads lately. But I don't think this is one of them.

There's a certain "arrogance" in this thread that the offense is fine, or that we don't need to take things from college of all places. And that's fine.

But that's not how Belichick operates.

He's the GOAT (other than Super Bowl 52). And he liberally borrows from the college game. He is always visiting campuses or having college coaches visit the Patriots to talk about football and trends and new concepts that are emerging.

Imagine an NBA coach constantly asking a D-League or college coach what they think is new and effective.

The spread concept is one area the Patriots used to go from a top-10 offense consistently in the early Brady era to a top-3 offense consistently. There are elements of Chip Kelly's offense in there too, even though Brady can't run.

You also don't have to take everything or nothing. You can take the bits that work for you. Obviously Brady isn't a big threat to run, but that doesn't mean you have to throw the entire thing out. The Falcons have used RPO concepts recently too, and nobody is going to confuse Matt Ryan for Michael Vick (fortunately for the dogs of Atlanta).

We already incorporate some elements of RPO. Traditional play-action passing has the OL move back to pass block, but the Patriots almost always run block in that situation so the LBs can't figure out the play based on the OL.

But Brady is a super computer able to process what's going on with the defense. RPO usually relies on a few "keys" that the QB needs to figure out. Brady does that and more. And the offense has matured to the point that Brady can have two completely different plays based on the defense, not just toggle between a run or pass. He can alter the entire formation, or the routes will vary depending on the defense.

So I think it's somewhere in the middle. There are elements that are useful, and BB will always look for an advantage anywhere and everywhere, even the level "below" him, which some may see as ridiculous. But it's one of the reasons he continues to evolve and grow with the game, while many of the all-time greats eventually became obsolete as the game passed them by (looking at you Shula).

I agree that the offense isn't perfect and can be improved in the same way that everything can be improved. But I also think that trying to add the RPO to this offense would be an ill-fitting solution searching for a problem. The problem that the RPO solves doesn't really apply to our offense, because we already solve that problem--and do it very effectively--in other ways that better fit our personnel.

 

[Kontradiction]

I agree that the offense isn't perfect and can be improved in the same way that everything can be improved. But I also think that trying to add the RPO to this offense would be an ill-fitting solution searching for a problem. The problem that the RPO solves doesn't really apply to our offense, because we already solve that problem--and do it very effectively--in other ways that better fit our personnel.

I do. I also realize not all of those were kneel downs. That's why I threw in Carson Wentz's rushing attempts for good measure. But if you don't want to believe me, that's fine. Ask yourself why any team that you can think of, whether at the college ranks or in pro football, that runs the RPO has a mobile quarterback that can make plays with his feet. Or you can name me all the teams at both levels that have an immobile QB who is basically just a pocket passer. But I think you probably get the point.

 

[maineman209]

There are a lot of bad threads lately. But I don't think this is one of them.

There's a certain "arrogance" in this thread that the offense is fine, or that we don't need to take things from college of all places. And that's fine.

But that's not how Belichick operates.

He's the GOAT (other than Super Bowl 52). And he liberally borrows from the college game. He is always visiting campuses or having college coaches visit the Patriots to talk about football and trends and new concepts that are emerging.

Imagine an NBA coach constantly asking a D-League or college coach what they think is new and effective.

The spread concept is one area the Patriots used to go from a top-10 offense consistently in the early Brady era to a top-3 offense consistently. There are elements of Chip Kelly's offense in there too, even though Brady can't run.

You also don't have to take everything or nothing. You can take the bits that work for you. Obviously Brady isn't a big threat to run, but that doesn't mean you have to throw the entire thing out. The Falcons have used RPO concepts recently too, and nobody is going to confuse Matt Ryan for Michael Vick (fortunately for the dogs of Atlanta).

We already incorporate some elements of RPO. Traditional play-action passing has the OL move back to pass block, but the Patriots almost always run block in that situation so the LBs can't figure out the play based on the OL.

But Brady is a super computer able to process what's going on with the defense. RPO usually relies on a few "keys" that the QB needs to figure out. Brady does that and more. And the offense has matured to the point that Brady can have two completely different plays based on the defense, not just toggle between a run or pass. He can alter the entire formation, or the routes will vary depending on the defense.

So I think it's somewhere in the middle. There are elements that are useful, and BB will always look for an advantage anywhere and everywhere, even the level "below" him, which some may see as ridiculous. But it's one of the reasons he continues to evolve and grow with the game, while many of the all-time greats eventually became obsolete as the game passed them by (looking at you Shula).

It seems to me that the RPO developed/evolved partly as another method (like screens, jet-sweeps, etc.) to help counter traditional pass-rush schemes, but also perhaps partly to help simplify defensive reads for young QBs.

My guess is that Belichick and Saban are collaborating on developing more defensive schemes and techniques to account for RPO plays. Those likely include zone/pattern-matching/man coverages (developed jointly by BB and Saban awhile back), the use of multiple safeties in multiple roles that change from play-to-play, etc. Many of those elements are already well-integrated in the Pats defensive system and schemes, but they're not easy to execute.

Among the issues on defense this season was the number of players with little or no experience in the Pats' specific defensive systems and schemes. However, IMHO, the issue with the defense in the SB and in Week-1 v. KCY was not the scheme, but a team-wide lack of consistent execution - even of fundamentals - regardless whether the play was an RPO or an ordinary run-fake.

 

[patriot1136]

A "shiny beads reaction", it works for Philadelphia and Chris Collingsworth hypes it over and over and over again in the SB, ergo it must be good for the Patriots..

An aside cannot stand Collingsworth and his bullcrap speaking out the side of his mouth.. STFU and just tell the viewers what you are seeing... he irritates me immensely.

My favorite post so far. I also cannot stand Collinsworth. I wish he would retire.

 

[maineman209]

A lot of the responses seem to be assuming that the QB has to be the one running, which isn't the case and isn't really what the Eagles do, at least not a lot of the time. The run part of the option can be a hand off, and often is with them. And that's how the Pats would have to do it if they were inclined to introduce it to a Brady-led offense in any capacity. But the main benefit of that type of RPO is that it creates a really easy read for the QB, which is what makes it so effective in college and with young guys. For the Pats, though, I don't think it would be all that great just because the problem it solves isn't really a problem for the Pats and won't be as long as Brady is their QB.

The RPO is all about forcing the defense to declare what it's stopping and then reacting by giving them the opposite, and the Pats offense already does that but in a different way. The Pats do it with pre-snap motion and relying on Brady to read the defense and audible at the line as needed. The mental degree of difficulty is way higher, but that's like half the benefit of having Brady in the first place: he crushes at that stuff.

OTOH, Brady/McD use a number of different bait-and-switch methods, so I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that they could incorporate an RPO "look" on occasion to set up something for later in a game. They've certainly incorporated at least some elements of Chip Kelly's thing with having 2 RBs in the backfield who are both equal threats to run or catch a pass, and they've put their own twists on that.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I do. I also realize not all of those were kneel downs. That's why I threw in Carson Wentz's rushing attempts for good measure. But if you don't want to believe me, that's fine. Ask yourself why any team that you can think of, whether at the college ranks or in pro football, that runs the RPO has a mobile quarterback that can make plays with his feet. Or you can name me all the teams at both levels that have an immobile QB who is basically just a pocket passer. But I think you probably get the point.

Was this intended to be a reply to me? Not really sure what you're requesting here.

 

[Kontradiction]

Was this intended to be a reply to me? Not really sure what you're requesting here.

No. It was to @IllegalContact

 

[neuronet]

Stupid question: what is the difference between 'RPO' and running a 'play action pass' play?

 

[Ring 6]

An RPO is just a run play where the qb has the choice to change it into a play action pass. (I guess technically it’s a PA pass where the qb has the option to handoff) One nfln analyst last week said Philly ran a total of 3 RPO against the Vikings.
It’s a play call not a scheme.

 

[Ring 6]

Stupid question: what is the difference between 'RPO' and running a 'play action pass' play?

The only difference is the QBs can choose to hand off during the fake.
In a non RPO that would be an audible before the snap.
Now the downfall of the RPO is that your OL doesn’t know if it’s run blocking it pass blocking whuch is why the pass is usually a quick hit like a slant.

 

[neuronet]

So a play action *pass* is by definition a pass play, it doesn't give an option to the QB, unless it is audibled before the snap (giving the OL the chance to set up the correct blocking scheme)? So Russell Wilson does the RPO really well too right? And people seem right if they point out the RPO isn't about the QB running necessarily, but just about whether the play becomes a run play (to the RB) or a pass play. While technically a play action pass is always (by definition) a pass play?