Caldwell or Gaffney - Who would you rather have?

[Keegs]

Who's "Jabbar?"

I have no idea.

His name is spelled "Jabar"

I'm bad with spelling some of their names.

 

[mgteich]

One of these has proven that he can work with Brady and has carried the offense. One has had one good game. I don't see how Gaffney can turn the tide in camp, barring injuries of course.

If I had final say, I would have them compete in pre-season and choose the guy who did the best and gave us the best chance to win.

 

[JackBauer]

There simply is no viable case for taking Gaffney over Caldwell.

 

[Keegs]

There simply is no viable case for taking Gaffney over Caldwell.

Yeah there is. (I wrote exactly why Gaffney is better a couple messages up)

Caldwell proved he chokes under pressure.

Gaffney proved the exact opposite, and thrived under pressure in big games.


now fast forward this season through the playoffs and say we are up against the colts AGAIN in the AFC Championship game. Do you really want Reche Caldwell playing receiver in that game? do you trust him?

You shouldn't.

 

[JackBauer]

Yeah there is. (I wrote exactly why Gaffney is better a couple messages up)

Caldwell proved he chokes under pressure.

Gaffney proved the exact opposite, and thrived under pressure in big games.


now fast forward this season through the playoffs and say we are up against the colts AGAIN in the AFC Championship game. Do you really want Reche Caldwell playing receiver in that game? do you trust him?

You shouldn't.

That argument is hardly compelling and has already been debunked numerous times, which you would already know had you read the entire thread.

 

[mgteich]

Actually, I want Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Faulk, and the Brady's. That's who I want on the field in the backfield under pressure in the playoffs. I would add Maroney, Watson and Thomas long before worrying about Gaffney and Caldwell. I suspect that Mills is more likely to be important in the next season that Gaffney. With Gaffney, Caldwell, Mills and Washington, we are talking about positions for the #9 and the #10 (or even #11) targets for Brady, although Caldwell could get more work early in the season, BECAUSE OF HIS DEPENDABILITY!

For me, the question is NOT one playoff game. Rather, the question is who I would like to count on throughout the season for the short and middle pass routes, if there is an injury, or if Washington and Welker aren't dependable for these situations.

Yeah there is. (I wrote exactly why Gaffney is better a couple messages up)

Caldwell proved he chokes under pressure.

Gaffney proved the exact opposite, and thrived under pressure in big games.


now fast forward this season through the playoffs and say we are up against the colts AGAIN in the AFC Championship game. Do you really want Reche Caldwell playing receiver in that game? do you trust him?

You shouldn't.

 

[Keegs]

That argument is hardly compelling and has already been debunked numerous times, which you would already know had you read the entire thread.

i'm going to go back and read the entire thread.

I will be looking for how EXACTLY Caldwell choking in the AFC championship game is debunked.

then i will post back here.

i"m not sure how that's possible, but you are right, i should read the whole thread... so ill do that first, then post again.

 

[JackBauer]

i'm going to go back and read the entire thread.

I will be looking for how EXACTLY Caldwell choking in the AFC championship game is debunked.

then i will post back here.

i"m not sure how that's possible, but you are right, i should read the whole thread... so ill do that first, then post again.

It's clearly about the logic, not the facts.

 

[BradyManny]

I don't know if I've posted in this thread or not, but can I just loudly say WTF.

How the F does Gaffney have 60% of the votes?!?!@

I like Gaffney, it would be great if he makes the team, he's been a solid receiver his entire career.

However, Reche Caldwell was Brady's favorite target the ENTIRE 2006 SEASON and 41 of his catches came for first downs.

Obviously, Moss, Stallworth and Welker are going to be the top three targets for Brady this season, and those three will be on the field the most often, they just have too much talent not to be. But Caldwell will still be a force, particularly on third downs, I imagine.

 

[Keegs]

That argument is hardly compelling and has already been debunked numerous times, which you would already know had you read the entire thread.

I just read the entire thread..... and what I saw was a massacre.

The Rayclay/Seymour93 and pro-Gaffney side absolutely demolished the Pats1/dabruinz/kdo5 side.

It's sick. Caldwell is here the entire offseason, works with the team as the #1 competing with bums (except Troy) and when he has a mediocre season we are supposed to crown him King.

Then there is Gaffney who is signed Oct 10th, learns the system on limited time, doesn't have the time that Reche does, and only starts 6 regular season games (according to NFL.com). Gaffney finally got into his groove in the playoffs and outperformed Reche Cadlwell in EVERY GAME.

Even against San Diego, where Caldwell made the catch every Receiver should catch, Gaffney had better stats! Yet this is ignored.

Then there are the dogcrap comparisons.... i see people comparing Reche to Jermaine Wiggins..... indirectly comparing Rodney Peete to Brady for Jermaine not having good stats in 02, saying Brady should be cut if REche is for choking.... all this crap
All of this is garbage.

The pro-Caldwell side should be ashamed of themselves for some of the comparisons and pathetic arguments i read in this thread. Comparing Brady to Caldwell for making mistakes, yet Brady is a 2 time superbowl mvp with 3 rings and Reche has nothing.

what's even more disgusting is the brain surgeon that had the audacity to indirectly compare Rodney Peete to Tom Brady.....
I couldn't believe what i read. A tangent argument about jermaine wiggins is absolute dog crap and should be deleted out of this thread.

and although i disagree with the Pro-Caldwell side about pretty much everything, i will say that they are capable of posting some great material and put a lot of work into this site.
But they should be ashamed for posting the garbage i just read in this thread.
You guys would go nuts if you read another poster try that crap.

I can't believe what i just read.

 

[zippo59]

I think right now Caldwell already has a roster spot and Gaffney is still fighting for one. That is the consensus from most of the writers who attended mini camp.

Belichick doesn't let a two or three game stretch shape his opinion of a player like some here do. Dominic Rhodes played great in the playoffs does that mean he should be a starting running back?

 

[Keegs]

I think right now Caldwell already has a roster spot and Gaffney is still fighting for one. That is the consensus from most of the writers who attended mini camp.

Belichick doesn't let a two or three game stretch shape his opinion of a player like some here do. Dominic Rhodes played great in the playoffs does that mean he should be a starting running back?

does BB prefer Reche to Jabar based on Reche's regular season stats when Jabar wasn't even on the team or playing?

Because that's what this board does.

I'm also pretty sure that BB takes into account the preparation time each receiver has and how clutch they are in big games, or if they tend to "crap their pants" in big games

 

[JackBauer]

I just read the entire thread..... and what I saw was a massacre.

The Rayclay/Seymour93 and pro-Gaffney side absolutely demolished the Pats1/dabruinz/kdo5 side.

It's sick. Caldwell is here the entire offseason, works with the team as the #1 competing with bums (except Troy) and when he has a mediocre season we are supposed to crown him King.

Then there is Gaffney who is signed Oct 10th, learns the system on limited time, doesn't have the time that Reche does, and only starts 6 regular season games (according to NFL.com). Gaffney finally got into his groove in the playoffs and outperformed Reche Cadlwell in EVERY GAME.

Even against San Diego, where Caldwell made the catch every Receiver should catch, Gaffney had better stats! Yet this is ignored.

Then there are the dogcrap comparisons.... i see people comparing Reche to Jermaine Wiggins..... indirectly comparing Rodney Peete to Brady for Jermaine not having good stats in 02, saying Brady should be cut if REche is for choking.... all this crap
All of this is garbage.

The pro-Caldwell side should be ashamed of themselves for some of the comparisons and pathetic arguments i read in this thread. Comparing Brady to Caldwell for making mistakes, yet Brady is a 2 time superbowl mvp with 3 rings and Reche has nothing.

what's even more disgusting is the brain surgeon that had the audacity to indirectly compare Rodney Peete to Tom Brady.....
I couldn't believe what i read. A tangent argument about jermaine wiggins is absolute dog crap and should be deleted out of this thread.

and although i disagree with the Pro-Caldwell side about pretty much everything, i will say that they are capable of posting some great material and put a lot of work into this site.
But they should be ashamed for posting the garbage i just read in this thread.
You guys would go nuts if you read another poster try that crap.

I can't believe what i just read.

So basically what you're saying (indirectly and inadvertantly, of course), is that the pro-Caldwell side has the more solid argument.

My guess is this entire post is written out of convenience -- because their side comports with your argument. No doubt if Pats1/DaBruinz were on your side, you'd be singing their praises. I have no further need to continue this discussion with you. Caldwell will be on the team this season as the #4 wideout, as he should be.

There are plenty of massive holes in your argument which you refuse to address. First, Caldwell's season was only mediocre if you believe he has the talent to be a #1 receiver. Most rational football fans realize he's only a marginal #2 or a good #3, which means he overachieved last season without other viable WR threats. Second, you refuse to take into account that teams would match up their best defensive backs on Caldwell. This would be fine if Caldwell were a #1-caliber receiver, but he's not. Which makes his season ALL THE MORE IMPRESSIVE given the talent he had to square off against. Third, a bunch of Pats choked in the AFCCG. By your logic, none of them should be on the team. But you continue to insist on focusing on Caldwell. The least you could do is show a shred of intellectual honesty and be consistent in your arguments.

 

[tombonneau]

It's sick. Caldwell is here the entire offseason, works with the team as the #1 competing with bums (except Troy) and when he has a mediocre season we are supposed to crown him King.

As the starter of this post and one of the biggest anti-Caldwells, this is what amazed me the most with the pro-Reche camp: The fervor with which they supported and his complete and utter mediocrity.

He put up the pedestrian numbers any decent WR in the league would have if put in the exact same situation.

Not sure if it was in this thread, but when I mentioned this I was challenged to name one situation where a WR was all of a sudden the #1 with little other WR support and to post his stats compared to Caldwell.

In 2006 alone I was able to fine at least 6 WRs, none big time guys, who became #1 targets, all posting MUCH better numbers than Caldwell.

The guy is at best a servicable #2 WR who came up short on the biggest stage. I'll pass. Fool me once ...

 

[JackBauer]

As the starter of this post and one of the biggest anti-Caldwells, this is what amazed me the most with the pro-Reche camp: The fervor with which they supported and his complete and utter mediocrity.

He put up the pedestrian numbers any decent WR in the league would have if put in the exact same situation.

Not sure if it was in this thread, but when I mentioned this I was challenged to name one situation where a WR was all of a sudden the #1 and to post his stats compared to Caldwell.

In 2006 alone I was able to fine at least 6 WRs, none big time guys, who became #1 targets, all posting MUCH better numbers than Caldwell.

The guy is at best a servicable #2 WR who came up short on the biggest stage. I'll pass. Fool me once ...

Uh-huh.

Who are these 6 WRs, pray tell?

 

[rabthepat]

Reche all the way!!!!!!!!!

 

[tombonneau]

Here's what I posted in the other thread. Sorry, I mis-remembered, only found 4 (this thread was weeks ago) but this is just a cursory sample based off the top of my head regarding 2006 WRs and their teams' situations. I'm sure if I went back a few seasons I could fine 4-5 every year.

Ok, how about Jax rookie Matt Jones who did more with less catches in 14 games:

Matt Jones           | 14 |    41   643  15.7   4 |

Or Drew Bennett, I think everyone there expected Givens to be #1. Oh, this was with Vince Young throwing to him:

| Drew Bennett          46   737  16.0   3 |

Antonio Bryant, with Alex Smith throwing to him and the immortal Arnaz Battle opposite (again in 14 games):

| Antonio Bryant       | 14 |  40   733  18.3   3 |

And finally, let's look at the Eagles, and Reggie Brown:

| Reggie Brown         | 16 |     46   816  17.7   8 |

Just for reference, here is Caldwell:

| Reche Caldwell       | 16 |   61   760  12.5   4 |

All of those guys are average NFL WRs. Jones might be special, but was average last year. Bennett you could argue is above average, but only barely.

And look at what they did, none on high powered offenses, none with a superstar drawing attention from them in the passing game.

I mean, just compare their YPC to Caldwell's. It's embarrassing. He's a full 3+ yards behind Jones & Bennett, who have the lowest YPC of those listed.

Now that I look at the stats, I actually recant my statement -- none of these guys would have put up the same numbers as Caldwell -- THEY WOULD HAVE DONE BETTER.

And they did better than Caldwell last year without a HOF QB throwing to them.

 

[Keegs]

So basically what you're saying (indirectly and inadvertantly, of course), is that the pro-Caldwell side has the more solid argument.

My guess is this entire post is written out of convenience -- because their side comports with your argument. No doubt if Pats1/DaBruinz were on your side, you'd be singing their praises. I have no further need to continue this discussion with you. Caldwell will be on the team this season as the #4 wideout, as he should be.

There are plenty of massive holes in your argument which you refuse to address. First, Caldwell's season was only mediocre if you believe he has the talent to be a #1 receiver. Most rational football fans realize he's only a marginal #2 or a good #3, which means he overachieved last season without other viable WR threats. Second, you refuse to take into account that teams would match up their best defensive backs on Caldwell. This would be fine if Caldwell were a #1-caliber receiver, but he's not. Which makes his season ALL THE MORE IMPRESSIVE given the talent he had to square off against. Third, a bunch of Pats choked in the AFCCG. By your logic, none of them should be on the team. But you continue to insist on focusing on Caldwell. The least you could do is show a shred of intellectual honesty and be consistent in your arguments.

You just told me i was consistent in the other thread...
Now i'm not consistent? heheh too easy..

I'm not sure what you mean about the "entire post being written out of convenience". I wrote it b/c it's the truth, and it is what i believe.

If pats1 and dabruinz were on my side with this i would say fine and deal with it. I don't go on this site just to argue with them. I'm not sure what your point is with that. If they were on my side i'd just shake my head confused and accept it. Please remove your head from their butts... i know what you are doing it doesn't look good. You are allowed to use your brain and have your own thoughts... i suggest you start doing it and get off the bandwagons on this site. what good is it to post if you don't even have your own opinions and just go with the majority ?

You are ignoring Reche's postseason... like everyone else on the pro-reche side does. Since when did this team start to only care about the regular season?

Whether i believe Reche has the talent or not, the pats chose him to be a #1. So your argument about him being a #2 or #3 is pointless, it doesn't matter. There is nothing any of us can do about it. The pats said he's our "#1" so he's our "number 1". Yet people like you continue to back the argument that "the pats don't have #1 receivers, it's 1a, 1b, etc.".. yet all of a sudden REche is a god b/c he stepped into the #1 slot.
Either the pats have #1, #2, and #3 receivers or they don't. you can't have both.

61 catches, 760 yards, 4 tds. Good for a number 2 receiver. In the playoffs he SUCKED, bad for ANY RECEIVER. Did you read that correctly? do i have to type it again?

Ok i will

RECHE CALDWELL SUCKED IN THE POSTSEASON.
HE CHOKED.

We cannot have this on the team. He had a mediocre regular season and played like crap in the playoffs...

How exactly can you pick him over Jabar, who played like a Patriot in the playoffs and was clutch?

 

[JackBauer]

Ah, now I remember why no one here takes you seriously.

Like I said, I'm done discussing this with you. Caldwell will be a Patriot this season, and that's all that matters.

 

[Keegs]

Ah, now I remember why no one here takes you seriously.

Like I said, I'm done discussing this with you.

that's because you got ripped apart and have no original thoughts.

You jump on the bandwagon and then run away when i prove you wrong.

You manipulate data, make horrible comparisons, and ignore facts.

I've manipuated nothing, i've taken everything into account, including facts.

If you don't want to take me seriously that's fine. but i'll never take you seriously after witnessing the stunt you pulled in this thread.