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Is Caldwell done?

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Pioli believes that Morris has more talent than what we are paying him.

That's good enough for me.

And then the same must be true for Caldwell.
 
my logic assumes (obviously) that Reche Caldwell doesn't have a resume like Tom Brady.

You can't compare the two. Brady has proven himself time and time again.
Caldwell hasn't proven a damn thing.
Caldwell had his chance, he blew it.
Keep in mind Keegs, we problably wouldnt have been in the AFCCG if it werent for Caldwell. I remember Phil Simms geeking out about the move Caldwell made on Jammer to make the huge catch to set up our game winning field goal.

And Caldwell has PROVEN himself as a player who can be a #2 reciever, who isnt a bust in the league. It just proves that San Diego was not the place for him. He came here and did a very good job. There are a few stupid fans who had a personal vendetta against Reche for NO good reason(aside from a meaningless drop in a preseason game).

And thirdly, the only reason Caldwell dropped that ball in the AFCCG is because he commited the #1 sin a WR can make(which many do), thinking about what you are going to do with the ball, before you even have it. He was wide open and problably wasnt focused as much of catching the ball than he was thinking about what he would do after getting it. Give the guy a damn break, plus I'll need a hell of a lot more evidence to see that Gaffney is better than Caldwell.
 
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Would you like to put your money where your mouth is?

I'm low on funds.

I'll metaphorically bet my dignity and self-respect (if I have any) on the fact that Caldwell is out there on the first play to start the 07 season. I'm quite confident he's going to continue to be a contributor. Or more importantly, how about we bet that Caldwell simply continues to be a favorite target of Brady? Do you really think he's just going to disappear after a strong season as he had in 06?
 
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Gosh, do you suppose that's what I was referring to?

I don't know smart ass maybe if you constantly didn't contradict yourself then it would be easier to understand you.
 
We finally get depth at the WR position and people want to see Reche gone? Some have taken the kool-aid to a whole new level.
 
I guess caldwell didn't make that catch versus the Chargers then. the logic here is NEMish
 
I want to pay him as little as possible.

DUH.

The way you win championships is by paying people less money than the fair market value of their talent. Whoever underpays the most, wins.

Here is your problem, this is simply not the case. Its not about underpaying your talent, its about getting the best talent you can while remaining under the cap. Paying Reche the full amount of his contract will not hinder the Pat's from putting together the best team they can, so there is no need to cut him or force a restructuring of his deal. They still have plenty of room under the cap, if they were in a bad cap situation and only had a little money to work with it would still not make sense to worry about Reche's deal sinceas people keep pointing out there are numerous other players you would deal with first. The new CBA has allowed the team be be much more flexible in how it can go after players as we have seen this off season, and it's time for us to change how we look at the Pat's handling of player contracts to be more congruent with the actual league environment.

That being said I understand that some people are still hurting after the loss to the Colts last year, thats a game we should have won but didn't. It's not fair to blame one guy so much more than everyone else though, when there are probably 25 plays and 15 players that could be singled out as being at fault in the second half collapse. Reche was one of the heroes of last season, without Reche that team doesn't make it nearly as far as they did. The Pat's system is difficult and a lot of receivers can't handle the demands it places on them, but Reche stepped up after the receiver situation fell apart in the off season and became Brady's favorite target. If its so easy to do what he did, then why didnt Doug Gabriel catch on? Why didnt Troy Brown become the go to guy and catch 60 balls? Why didn't they just pick up some other guy off the street at the beginning of the season and have him catch 60 balls? Obviously there are reasons for all of these things but the fact remains that what Reche did was very impressive, especially considering that teams must have been game planning around him. Keep in mind that no one cought 60 cought balls in either 2004 or 2003, and that Reche had the least help of any Patriots reciever since Troy Brown in 2001. If it were a matter of just forcing the ball to whoever was on the field regardless of their ability to play in the offense and get open then why didn't anyone else on the team get the same number of catches? Clealy Reche was able to make plays more regularly than any other reciever and his stats for last season reflect that.

It was a good catch.

My grandmother would have made it though and she would have stayed in bounds.

Most nfl receivers can make that catch.. but i'm sure that will be shot down since this is turning into the "Reche Caldwell is the greatest patriot receiver ever" thread.

This is the biggest bunch of bull and you either know it or are completely dillusional. That was a great catch on a ball that was not thrown particularly well while under good coverage. Reche made a GREAT play here under a ton of pressure and to write it off as an easy catch makes it look like you don't care if your arguments are true or not so long as you present them as fact. You know there was this other poster who used to do that all the time that pissed a lot of people off, what was his name? I can't quite remember...

As for people who challenge his toughness, please watch this to refresh your memory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkyNVrwg1gk , and remember that he was back on the field right after that happened. That is not a guy who plays scared. Sometimes its smarter to avoid hits and duck out of bounds and get back on the field for the next play than to fight for two more yards. Considering how much Branch used to drop straight to the ground after every catch I find it hard to believe that this is really a big deal and not just people trying to demonize a guy for no good reason.

In short, yes Reche blew it in the AFCCG, but a collapse that huge does not happen because of one player. If you want to start cutting people because you can't trust them after that game then you won't have much of a team left because there weren't many players that were blameless in that loss. Add to that the fact that the Pat's are in good standing in regard to the cap and at this time there is no reason to believe that Reche will be cut or forced to renegotiate his contract.
 
It's all about options and competition. BB has three new talented receivers, and mixed with the holdovers, all are going to have to play their asses off to play, and for some, to survive. A lot of teams wish they had so may WR options. It'd be nice if those who don't make it have some trade value.

As for Reche, unless he scores a game-winning Super Bowl TD, he's always going to be remembered for his two drops in the AFC Championship, not for his 67 catches last year. Unfair maybe, but that's the NFL. He's similar to Light, who despite a Pro Bowl season, is tarnished by getting burned two or three times by Jason Taylor in the second Miami game.
 
It's all about options and competition. BB has three new talented receivers, and mixed with the holdovers, all are going to have to play their asses off to play, and for some, to survive. A lot of teams wish they had so may WR options. It'd be nice if those who don't make it have some trade value.

As for Reche, unless he scores a game-winning Super Bowl TD, he's always going to be remembered for his two drops in the AFC Championship, not for his 67 catches last year. Unfair maybe, but that's the NFL. He's similar to Light, who despite a Pro Bowl season, is tarnished by getting burned two or three times by Jason Taylor in the second Miami game.

No way in hell Reche is remembered for those.

Only the...strange...types have damned Light and Caldwell for all eternity for their occasional mishaps.
 
Here is your problem, this is simply not the case. Its not about underpaying your talent, its about getting the best talent you can while remaining under the cap.

This is a contradictory statement.

Getting the best talent you can while remaining under the cap is precisely equivalent to underpaying for talent.

Imagine that there was a universal measurable unit of talent. Imagine that some scouting oracle could look at each player and determine how many talent units that player has.

If your team has a total of T units of talent, and you spend C dollars of cap, then your cost per unit of talent is C/T.

Since C is fixed (we always spend to the cap), the more talent you have on your team, the lower the cost per unit of talent. [As T goes up, C/T goes down].

Conversely, if you pay more per unit of talent, your total talent goes down. [For constant C, as C/T goes up, T goes down]

Of course this is a gross oversimplification. There is no scouting Oracle. Aggregate team talent is not simply the sum of the talent of the individual players. But the central lesson remains:

If your goal is to maximize talent, then you must try to underpay for that talent as much as possible.
 
I'm low on funds.

I'll metaphorically bet my dignity and self-respect (if I have any) on the fact that Caldwell is out there on the first play to start the 07 season. I'm quite confident he's going to continue to be a contributor. Or more importantly, how about we bet that Caldwell simply continues to be a favorite target of Brady? Do you really think he's just going to disappear after a strong season as he had in 06?

A Gentleman's bet it is then.

I think his strong season is entirely the result of being Tom Brady's go to guy.

He didn't show me anything special last year.

Now that Brady has better options, he'll be lucky to return to his 2005 level.
 
This is a contradictory statement.

Getting the best talent you can while remaining under the cap is precisely equivalent to underpaying for talent.

Imagine that there was a universal measurable unit of talent. Imagine that some scouting oracle could look at each player and determine how many talent units that player has.

If your team has a total of T units of talent, and you spend C dollars of cap, then your cost per unit of talent is C/T.

Since C is fixed (we always spend to the cap), the more talent you have on your team, the lower the cost per unit of talent. [As T goes up, C/T goes down].

Conversely, if you pay more per unit of talent, your total talent goes down. [For constant C, as C/T goes up, T goes down]

Of course this is a gross oversimplification. There is no scouting Oracle. Aggregate team talent is not simply the sum of the talent of the individual players. But the central lesson remains:

If your goal is to maximize talent, then you must try to underpay for that talent as much as possible.

Were the Patriots a more "talented" football team than the Colts in 2003 and 2004?
 
In 2005, there were 43 receivers making $1.9 million or more, according to USA Today, and that's before the recent salary cap jump. With the new salary cap, $1.9 is even less of an issue.

In other words, your logic sucks at worst and is outdated at best. You telling others that they don't know what they are talking about is a very, very funny and ironic thing.

Caldwell is not even remotely close to being one of the top 43 receivers in the league. Prior to last season his career high was 28 receptions for 352 yards.

The only reason he had half way decent stats (40th best in the league) in 2006, is that he was Tom Brady's main target. Other receivers are giving up large sums of money just for the OPPORTUNITY to show what they could do in that role.

You can't take the 2005 salary of the 43rd best receiver in the league (probably one of the better #2s) and apply it to Caldwell who is a #3 receiver at best.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Go ahead and complain that I've called you on your ignorance, but when you trot out stupid ideas like Ben Watson not being worth $600K/yr, you just dig yourself in deeper.
 
solman said:
Pioli believes that Morris has more talent than what we are paying him.

That's good enough for me.
And then the same must be true for Caldwell.

Except that Pioli does NOT think that Caldwell has more talent than what we are paying him.

That is why, as I have maintained throughout this entire thread, he will either cut, trade or restructure Caldwell before the first game.
 
A Gentleman's bet it is then.

I think his strong season is entirely the result of being Tom Brady's go to guy.

He didn't show me anything special last year.

Now that Brady has better options, he'll be lucky to return to his 2005 level.

The Patriots will spread the ball around in 2007 just as much as they did in 2006, which was just as much as they did in 2005.

Having better WRs around Caldwell will make him better. No longer will defenses target him. He'll be open more. Brady will hit the open man.
 
Were the Patriots a more "talented" football team than the Colts in 2003 and 2004?

Surely.

2003 and 2004 were our gold standard.

I am hopeful, but not at all certain, that we can replicate that in 2007-2009.




But frankly that's not my point.

My point is that you maximize talent by underpaying for it.

I think that our playoff victory over the Chargers is an example of the team with less talent find a way to overcome a team with more talent.
 
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Except that Pioli does NOT think that Caldwell has more talent than what we are paying him.

If they did, he'd be gone by now. Only by your logic.

That is why, as I have maintained throughout this entire thread, he will either cut, trade or restructure Caldwell before the first game.

That's your opinion (delusion), not Beioli's, so don't make it sound like the latter.
 
Surely.

2003 and 2004 were our gold standard.

I am hopeful, but not at all certain, that we can replicate that in 2007-2009.

I don't know if I'd call Branch and Givens and the rest more "talented" than the Colts. But collectively, as a team, they overcame the slight gap in talent. That's what's more important. Reche Caldwell is an important piece of this football team. Replacing him with Kelvin Kight would not make the Patriots collectively a better team.
 
But frankly that's not my point.

My point is that you maximize talent by underpaying for it.

I think that our playoff victory over the Chargers is an example of the team with less talent find a way to overcome a team with more talent.

Did the Chargers underpay less for their talent than the Patriots?

I'd say yes.

Did they have more talent because of that?

I'd say yes. You just said yes.

Therefore, they underpaid less to maximize their talent.
 
If they did, he'd be gone by now. Only by your logic.

I don't understand. Why purpose would be served by cutting Caldwell before we even owe him money?

Keep in mind that a couple of weeks ago we didn't know if we'd get ANY receivers in free agency.
 
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