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2014 Draft Prospect Thread

He might have a fine 40 time. Look closer at his 3-cone drill. BB likes wr with a little shake in their game. Not just the straight line speed guy. Not saying he's right. I just doubt that he would take a guy like Benjamin in the 1st.

If Belichick takes a receiver in the first round, it will be Benjamin. You guys have plenty of undersized receivers who excel at the 3 cone drill. You have no one, especially with Gronk injured, who can win a jump ball and be a red zone threat. Dobson maybe, but if you do go wide receiver, it will be a guy who can win a jump ball.
 
If Belichick takes a receiver in the first round, it will be Benjamin. You guys have plenty of undersized receivers who excel at the 3 cone drill. You have no one, especially with Gronk injured, who can win a jump ball and be a red zone threat. Dobson maybe, but if you do go wide receiver, it will be a guy who can win a jump ball.

We should strive to build teams like; Atlanta, Houston, Detroit and Arizona. They have the best high-point wr's in the league. Notice anything similiar about those teams? They all stink. The jump ball is a low pct. pass and Tom Brady doesn't throw it much. I doubt that changes in year 15 of his career.
 
We should strive to build teams like; Atlanta, Houston, Detroit and Arizona. They have the best high-point wr's in the league. Notice anything similiar about those teams? They all stink. The jump ball is a low pct. pass and Tom Brady doesn't throw it much. I doubt that changes in year 15 of his career.

it's an even lower percentage pass with someone like Benjamin who can barely catch the ball. If we are going WR early, Jordan Matthews and his 10 1/2" hands please.
 
Yes. Still, the problem with that thought is that your putting your faith in a guy who has never played a snap and a 33 year old. More importantly, there is no such thing a defense with 3 down linemen one of which is 270lbs that can be stout against the run. That's the reverse of the right kind of 3-4/4-3 hybrid defense. You want 4 down linemen; a traditional 3-4 nose tackle (Wilfork), a traditional 4-3 end (Jones), a traditional 4-3 tackle (need) and a versatile 3-4 end (need) who can rush the quarterback from 4-3 tackle. This defense subs out the low stamina nose tackle for a nickelback when they see 3 receivers, move a pass rushing outside linebacker to defensive end (or sub in a pass rushing defensive end if you are the 2012 Seahawks with Bruce Irvin, but they abandoned that after Alan Branch went to Buffalo). I think your biggest need in this draft class is defensive tackle. Chris Jones and Joe Vellano are just not very good, and I'm not banking on a guy who still hasn't played an NFL snap in Armstead. Frankly, you guys aren't prepared to make a transition to this kind of defense. The only way I could see a switch to that defense is in the following scenario:
You draft Rashede Hageman in the first round. He plays end in your base defense and tackle when you guys go to the nickel, assuming Wilfork is subbed out to conserve stamina.
You draft Dominique Easley in the second round. He plays 3 technique at all times.
You make Collins your pass rushing outside linebacker (people forget how many sacks he can get), moving him to defensive end in nickel situations like the Broncos with Von Miller.
Ninkovich never starts again, because, in the event you move to this defense, he's not athletic enough to play 4-3 outside linebacker in your base defense. He'll backup Chandler Jones.
This defense is incredible in theory. You've got 3 300lbs players to dominate the run when the offense is on the field with less than 3 receivers, and, unlike a 3-4 defense, you only put one of them as a 5 technique. Generally, 3-4 ends are terrible pass rushers, since any and every 3 man front makes run stopping the highest priority for the defensive line. However, in this case, you have 4 down linemen and a guy like Dominique Easley can be as aggressive as he pleases. And you still have two traditional speed rushers.
The problem with this defense though is that you need a Von Miller. A guy who is athletic and rangy enough to stop the run and cover tight ends when he plays like a 4-3 outside linebacker when you aren't in the nickel, but also possesses all of the pass rushing skills of your traditional 3-4 outside linebacker, while having the strength to hold his own as a 5 technique against the run if the opponent does run from a 3 receiver set. If you have a guy who can do all that, this defense is for you. As of now, the only player that possesses all of these qualities is Von Miller. But this is the one thing you guys definitely have going for you. If I had to bet on a young player to develop all of these qualities, it would be Jamie Collins. Collins is no Von Miller, but he possesses most of these qualities. He's extremely athletic, he can rush the quarterback, he has good size, and he can cover. The biggest question is whether or not he can develop the strength to anchor the run as a 5 technique in a nickel defense if the offense runs to his side from a 3 receiver set. He probably will need 5-10lbs to become that freaky. Frankly, the guy's feel for football is ridiculous (he has history with basically every position), and he might be able to handle that job. But you still need other spots to be filled.

Although I love Murphy's intangibles, physicality and versatility, I wouldn't be at all upset if Hageman or Stephon Tuitt were the pick with our #1 and played that role. I think that Armond Armstead can also play that role, as well as the 3-tech. Chris Jones could also excel at the 3-tech. I'm not sure we have to use a day 2 or early day 3 pick on Easley. I also think that Cal DT DeAndre Coleman is someone to watch - he played in both 3-4 and 4-3 schemes at Cal, and has almost identical measurables to Hageman (6'5" 315# vs. 6'6" 318#, almost identical arm length and wingspan). He's not quite as athletic as Hageman, but may be more consistent and technically sound.

I think that Jamie Collins can be everything that Von Miller is. The athleticism is there, the work ethic appears to be there, and he has really shown good technique over the past 2 games, suggesting that he is really absorbing the coaching well. This was a kid who changed positions 4 times (QB -> safety -> LB -> DB) before he was drafted and changed coaches and systems as well. He appears to be a very fast learner. As Manx notes, Marcus Smith may be able to play that role as well to a large extent, though it remains to be seen.

On the back end we clearly need a big CB to back up Aqib Talib, something I've always wanted. I wanted Tharold Simon last year. We could clearly use an upgrade at safety opposite Devin McCourty, but that's not as high a priority for me as the front 7.

I think that we're a couple of front 7 players and 1-2 back end players from having the talent and depth to be an elite defense. From then on it's a question of coaching, consistency and learning to play as a unit.
 
We should strive to build teams like; Atlanta, Houston, Detroit and Arizona. They have the best high-point wr's in the league. Notice anything similiar about those teams? They all stink. The jump ball is a low pct. pass and Tom Brady doesn't throw it much. I doubt that changes in year 15 of his career.

Look, I don't think you guys want a bunch of jump ball receivers. But, with your current group of receivers, the goal line fade is nearly impossible. Who is Brady supposed to throw to in the red zone?
Oh, and Denver, New Orleans, Cincinnati, and Chicago have the best high point receivers in the league. Again, every quarterback needs someone he can throw to in the red zone. As long as Gronk in injured, he has no one whatsoever.
 
If Belichick takes a receiver in the first round, it will be Benjamin. You guys have plenty of undersized receivers who excel at the 3 cone drill. You have no one, especially with Gronk injured, who can win a jump ball and be a red zone threat. Dobson maybe, but if you do go wide receiver, it will be a guy who can win a jump ball.

We should strive to build teams like; Atlanta, Houston, Detroit and Arizona. They have the best high-point wr's in the league. Notice anything similiar about those teams? They all stink. The jump ball is a low pct. pass and Tom Brady doesn't throw it much. I doubt that changes in year 15 of his career.

it's an even lower percentage pass with someone like Benjamin who can barely catch the ball. If we are going WR early, Jordan Matthews and his 10 1/2" hands please.

Jordan Matthews >>> Kelvin Benjamin, especially for the Pats.

Benjamin is a physical freak who is a great red zone target, but he has iffy hands and can't run routes. It's not clear that he has the maturity, work ethic or temperament to survive with the Pats and Tom Brady.

Matthews is Jerry Rice's cousin and brings his ultra-dedicated work ethic to his craft. This is a kid who requested film of the CB's invited to the Senior Bowl in advance so that he would prepare for them. He's not a burner but he has good size and adequate speed, runs routes like a seasoned NFL veteran, and has great hands. He's the kind of guy who would earn Brady's trust very quickly, and who would put in the time and effort to be successful. He's a more polished Keenan Allen without the injury concerns or off-field issues. I'd say he's as close to a
"sure thing" WR prospect for the Pats coming out of the draft as there can be.

I consider Cody Hoffman to be a "poor man's Jordan Matthews", with slightly better size (6' 3 7/8" 218#). I'd take Hoffman over Benjamin for the Pats, and he would come much, much cheaper.
 
Although I love Murphy's intangibles, physicality and versatility, I wouldn't be at all upset if Hageman or Stephon Tuitt were the pick with our #1 and played that role. I think that Armond Armstead can also play that role, as well as the 3-tech. Chris Jones could also excel at the 3-tech. I'm not sure we have to use a day 2 or early day 3 pick on Easley. I also think that Cal DT DeAndre Coleman is someone to watch - he played in both 3-4 and 4-3 schemes at Cal, and has almost identical measurables to Hageman (6'5" 315# vs. 6'6" 318#, almost identical arm length and wingspan). He's not quite as athletic as Hageman, but may be more consistent and technically sound.

I think that Jamie Collins can be everything that Von Miller is. The athleticism is there, the work ethic appears to be there, and he has really shown good technique over the past 2 games, suggesting that he is really absorbing the coaching well. This was a kid who changed positions 4 times (QB -> safety -> LB -> DB) before he was drafted and changed coaches and systems as well. He appears to be a very fast learner. As Manx notes, Marcus Smith may be able to play that role as well to a large extent, though it remains to be seen.

On the back end we clearly need a big CB to back up Aqib Talib, something I've always wanted. I wanted Tharold Simon last year. We could clearly use an upgrade at safety opposite Devin McCourty, but that's not as high a priority for me as the front 7.

I think that we're a couple of front 7 players and 1-2 back end players from having the talent and depth to be an elite defense. From then on it's a question of coaching, consistency and learning to play as a unit.
Couldn't agree more with what you said about Collins. I don't see Murphy as a guy strong enough to play that kind of role. Henry Anderson if he wasn't entering the draft, but not Murphy. Frankly, I don't think Chris Jones is very good and that's why I advocate Easley
 
Jordan Matthews >>> Kelvin Benjamin, especially for the Pats.

Benjamin is a physical freak who is a great red zone target, but he has iffy hands and can't run routes. It's not clear that he has the maturity, work ethic or temperament to survive with the Pats and Tom Brady.

Matthews is Jerry Rice's cousin and brings his ultra-dedicated work ethic to his craft. This is a kid who requested film of the CB's invited to the Senior Bowl in advance so that he would prepare for them. He's not a burner but he has good size and adequate speed, runs routes like a seasoned NFL veteran, and has great hands. He's the kind of guy who would earn Brady's trust very quickly, and who would put in the time and effort to be successful. He's a more polished Keenan Allen without the injury concerns or off-field issues. I'd say he's as close to a
"sure thing" WR prospect for the Pats coming out of the draft as there can be.

I consider Cody Hoffman to be a "poor man's Jordan Matthews", with slightly better size (6' 3 7/8" 218#). I'd take Hoffman over Benjamin for the Pats, and he would come much, much cheaper.
Frankly, I love Jordan Matthews and Cody Hoffman. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, especially given that I think Cody Hoffman is probably the most underrated prospect in the draft after John Spooney. But you did say yourself that Benjamin is a great red zone target. I'm just saying that is the only thing the Patriots need. You have plenty of hard working wide receivers that run great routes and have good hands. But with Gronk injured, you don't have anything resembling a red zone target. I don't necessarily believe you should draft Benjamin, but I think if you guys choose a wide receiver it probably will be Benjamin.
 
Frankly, I love Jordan Matthews and Cody Hoffman. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, especially given that I think Cody Hoffman is probably the most underrated prospect in the draft after John Spooney. But you did say yourself that Benjamin is a great red zone target. I'm just saying that is the only thing the Patriots need. You have plenty of hard working wide receivers that run great routes and have good hands. But with Gronk injured, you don't have anything resembling a red zone target. I don't necessarily believe you should draft Benjamin, but I think if you guys choose a wide receiver it probably will be Benjamin.

I understand, and I have struggled with Benjamin-temptation myself. But particularly for the Pats, we have a fairly good existence proof (Chad Jackson, Bethel Johnson) that physical skills aren't nearly as critical as mentality, work ethic and consistency. Brady is a demanding taskmaster, and I'm not convinced that Benjamin has what it takes to make the grade.
 
Look, I don't think you guys want a bunch of jump ball receivers. But, with your current group of receivers, the goal line fade is nearly impossible. Who is Brady supposed to throw to in the red zone?
Oh, and Denver, New Orleans, Cincinnati, and Chicago have the best high point receivers in the league. Again, every quarterback needs someone he can throw to in the red zone. As long as Gronk in injured, he has no one whatsoever.

That's true. I don't want more smurfs. But you don't need guys with Kelvin Benjamin size to make that work. Alshon Jeffrey is 6' 2 7/8", Demaryius Thomas 6' 3 2/8".

The Pats have Aaron Dobson (6' 2 6/8"). Mark Harrison (6' 2 7/8" 231#, 35" arms) will be coming off IR. Add one of Jordan Matthews (6' 2 5/8") or Cody Hoffman (6' 3 7/8" 217#) and you have plenty of big red zone targets, especially when factor in the return of Gronk and other TE options.
 
I understand, and I have struggled with Benjamin-temptation myself. But particularly for the Pats, we have a fairly good existence proof (Chad Jackson, Bethel Johnson) that physical skills aren't nearly as critical as mentality, work ethic and consistency. Brady is a demanding taskmaster, and I'm not convinced that Benjamin has what it takes to make the grade.

Again, I don't disagree with any of that. But with the uncertainties around Gronk's health, I just point to what Brady did this season. Statistically speaking, Brady had his worst season since the pre Randy Moss era. And I feel that if Gronk doesn't come back healthy, this Patriots offense will look a lot more like the way it did during the pre Randy Moss era.
 
Again, I don't disagree with any of that. But with the uncertainties around Gronk's health, I just point to what Brady did this season. Statistically speaking, Brady had his worst season since the pre Randy Moss era. And I feel that if Gronk doesn't come back healthy, this Patriots offense will look a lot more like the way it did during the pre Randy Moss era.

The wide receivers were actually more productive than last year. It was the significant absence of TE production that caused the drop in Brady's production. TE and not WR is a much bigger priority for the Patriots this off-season.
 
That's true. I don't want more smurfs. But you don't need guys with Kelvin Benjamin size to make that work. Alshon Jeffrey is 6' 2 7/8", Demaryius Thomas 6' 3 2/8".

The Pats have Aaron Dobson (6' 2 6/8"). Mark Harrison (6' 2 7/8" 231#, 35" arms) will be coming off IR. Add one of Jordan Matthews (6' 2 5/8") or Cody Hoffman (6' 3 7/8" 217#) and you have plenty of big red zone targets, especially when factor in the return of Gronk and other TE options.

You must have a fair amount of faith in Mark Harrison. I'll admit he's incredibly talented, but his track record is pretty spotty. But I'd like to mention that both guys you mentioned are about 220lbs. It's not all about height; it's great to have a wide, powerful frame that can fight for position with the ball in the air, aka not Justin Hunter or Sidney Rice. I'd feel more comfortable with Matthews or Dobson if they were 10lbs stronger.

Hoffman does have the strength. Again, I think he's worthy of a second round pick. But I'm a minority in that opinion, and it's doubtful the Patriots love Hoffman as much as I do.
 
The wide receivers were actually more productive than last year. It was the significant absence of TE production that caused the drop in Brady's production. TE and not WR is a much bigger priority for the Patriots this off-season.

I think tight end is an impossible conundrum for you guys, because you will have problems if Gronk comes back healthy. Two tight end systems work if they have substantially different skill sets. You can't give two guys the same role. Gronk runs great option routes gets a ton of yards on seam routes because of his awareness, football IQ, size, and strength. If you drafted a guy who does similar things, they would run into each other running a seam route. The only type of guy you guys can draft is a sort of flex end, a guy with blazing speed for his size, or it will just be a redundancy in your offense. A Vernon Davis type. Which really limits your options.

Hernandez and Gronk complemented each other's skill set ideally. Perfectly. They went so well together. No tight end this draft class really complements Gronk that well except Lyerla. Lyerla is an amazing fit next to Gronk. The problem is he's crazy.
 
I think tight end is an impossible conundrum for you guys, because you will have problems if Gronk comes back healthy. Two tight end systems work if they have substantially different skill sets. You can't give two guys the same role. Gronk runs great option routes gets a ton of yards on seam routes because of his awareness, football IQ, size, and strength. If you drafted a guy who does similar things, they would run into each other running a seam route. The only type of guy you guys can draft is a sort of flex end, a guy with blazing speed for his size, or it will just be a redundancy in your offense. A Vernon Davis type. Which really limits your options.

Hernandez and Gronk complemented each other's skill set ideally. Perfectly. They went so well together. No tight end this draft class really complements Gronk that well except Lyerla. Lyerla is an amazing fit next to Gronk. The problem is he's crazy.

Problem is: Gronk will be injured half the season and we will be lucky if he suits for the playoffs. So we need someone like him regardless.

I agree we need someone to complement that. I like Rodgers.
 
You must have a fair amount of faith in Mark Harrison. I'll admit he's incredibly talented, but his track record is pretty spotty. But I'd like to mention that both guys you mentioned are about 220lbs. It's not all about height; it's great to have a wide, powerful frame that can fight for position with the ball in the air, aka not Justin Hunter or Sidney Rice. I'd feel more comfortable with Matthews or Dobson if they were 10lbs stronger.

Hoffman does have the strength. Again, I think he's worthy of a second round pick. But I'm a minority in that opinion, and it's doubtful the Patriots love Hoffman as much as I do.

Harrison is 231# with 35" arms. I'm not convinced that he can be a complete receiver, but we're talking about red zone threats here, and I think that he has what it takes to be a red zone threat, just as you were discussing with Kelvin Benjamin. Benjamin has a height advantage on Harrison, but I doubt his arms are as long, and they're about the same weight. And Cody Hoffman would fit the bill, too.
 
Problem is: Gronk will be injured half the season and we will be lucky if he suits for the playoffs. So we need someone like him regardless.

I agree we need someone to complement that. I like Rodgers.

Rodgers is a guy that I need to see more. He may be a good fit.
 
Problem is: Gronk will be injured half the season and we will be lucky if he suits for the playoffs. So we need someone like him regardless.

I agree we need someone to complement that. I like Rodgers.

Yup. Give me Gronk + Brandon Pettigrew/Troy Niklas to run 2-TE power sets, red zone sets, and for depth, and then Rodgers plus the WRs, and I'm very happy.
 
I think tight end is an impossible conundrum for you guys, because you will have problems if Gronk comes back healthy. Two tight end systems work if they have substantially different skill sets. You can't give two guys the same role. Gronk runs great option routes gets a ton of yards on seam routes because of his awareness, football IQ, size, and strength. If you drafted a guy who does similar things, they would run into each other running a seam route. The only type of guy you guys can draft is a sort of flex end, a guy with blazing speed for his size, or it will just be a redundancy in your offense. A Vernon Davis type. Which really limits your options.

Hernandez and Gronk complemented each other's skill set ideally. Perfectly. They went so well together. No tight end this draft class really complements Gronk that well except Lyerla. Lyerla is an amazing fit next to Gronk. The problem is he's crazy.

Maybe they should make Mark Harrison the move TE. Hopefully they've been bulking him up this season and he's now 240+. His combine numbers were certainly suggestive of quality athleticism. And let's face it, he just needs to outperform Hoomanawanui initially to be an upgrade.
 
Harrison is 231# with 35" arms. I'm not convinced that he can be a complete receiver, but we're talking about red zone threats here, and I think that he has what it takes to be a red zone threat, just as you were discussing with Kelvin Benjamin. Benjamin has a height advantage on Harrison, but I doubt his arms are as long, and they're about the same weight. And Cody Hoffman would fit the bill, too.

Harrison has all the talent in the world. I've seen him in person, and physically, he's the closest thing I've ever seen to Calvin Johnson. His potential is ridiculous, and he was a wise free agent signing. Everyone knows that, yet he went undrafted anyway. That tells you a lot. I can't have that much faith in an undrafted rookie.
 
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