Moss '07-09 or Gronk right now: which player is/was more valuable to the offense?

[RobertWeathers]

1.) You can't be serious. In 1994 he had the same amount of Touchdowns on nearly 200 more passes. He also threw for 6 more interceptions. He had 2 less yards per attempt. In 95' he reduced the interceptions, but he was still a lot less efficient throwing touchdown passes (4.3 % of passes to 7%). 97 was the only comparable season. Still had less yards per attempt, lower completion percentage, and scored on a lower percentage of passes (5.3% to 7%)
Jeff George NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com.

Not at all. He had better years playing for teams that were not as good.

2.) This is obvious, but what's the more likely reason all those QB's achieved so much success? Randy Moss/Cris Carter or just fitting in with the offensive system Minnesota ran? .

You are adding other players to the discussion to make my point. It's not just all about Randy. Never was. A good QB will leverage all the offensive weapons to be sucessful.

3.) He was still the same QB with or without Moss. The numbers he put up were far better when Moss was on the field, however, that isn't debatable..

Circular arguement. DC also had marginal games w/ RM playing..



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Back on topic. Gronkowski has been absolutely incredible this season, but I like the answers on this page - it's too early to tell. Let's see what happens in the next few weeks before passing judgement. The position Gronk plays certainly helps. There are very few safeties in the league that can even slow him down, and most linebackers are too slow. Him and Hernandez are just mismatches.

Agree 100%. Despite the other posters, I am a big RM fan. Just see his overall contributions to an offense and overall value to QB a bit less than others. Need multiple weapons for an offense- and a QB to be truly sucessful.

Go Pats!

 

[fester]

I dont think this should be close at all. Moss in his prime took a safety out of the middle of the field and opened it up for players like Welker. Gronk is more effectively using space alongside Welker and if it werent for his RAC the inside game will always be just the inside game. Moss opened up more of the field for his team mates, Gronk's success isnt leading to career years for any WR is he?

Welker pretty much had a career year this year --- most TDs, most Yards, 2nd most receptions (1 less than 2009), higher YPC

Wes Welker, WR for the New England Patriots at NFL.com

 

[shareef242]

..and they also had a pro-bowl runner in Robert Smith to keep the defense honest.

Wasn't just all Moss, just like here w/ Welker, Brady etc.

If I remember correctly Smith missed a ton of time that year. In fact I think Leroy Hoard was the leading rusher. Robert Smith didn't make the the Pro Bowl until Moss was on the team. 98' & 2000.

 

[shareef242]

Jeff George was always somewhat of a enigma but he had a couple of other years that were just as good, if not better than his year in MN.

Cunningham was a different QB in MN. He stayed in the pocket more and never had as many offensive weapons available to him. He had just as productive years in Philly.

Culpepper's best year came when Moss was hobbling on a bad ankle and shoulder and needed to distribute the ball more.

Same goes for Brady. His highest TD year was 07 but I'd argue that his years in '10 and '11 were better.

Stats show QBs had good years with Randy but they also had good years without him.

Jeff George went 8-2 & 1 playoff win. He didn't have another winning season besides that one. His best year was with Moss.

Cunningham was cutting marble in Las Vegas & done with football. He came back for the paycheck to back up Brad Johnson. He had his best year with Moss when Johnson went down.

Culpeppers 2004 special season is misleading! He had 19 TD's in the first 5 games. With Moss having 8 of them in the first 5 games. Moss was got hurt in the first quarter of the 5th game & essentially missed the next 6 games.

Culpepper threw 20 TD's the nex 11 games.

So with healthy Moss he throws 19 TD's in 5 games.
Without & with a injured Moss he throws 20 TD's in the next 11 games. What does that tell you.

In fact I believe if he hadn't gotten hurt he would have seriously challenged Rice in 04'. Before he had Brady. 8 TD's in 4 games & 1 quarter!

 

[RobertWeathers]

If I remember correctly Smith missed a ton of time that year. .

Smith played from 97-2000

In fact I think Leroy Hoard was the leading rusher. Robert Smith didn't make the the Pro Bowl until Moss was on the team. 98' & 2000.

Smith ran for 1266 yds in 97- the year before RM was drafted. In those 4 years the Vikes sent 5 different offensive lineman to the Pro Bowl.

 

[brdmaverick]

It could very well be one of those "out of sight, out of mind" phenomenons where we think we appreciate Gronkowski more just because he is producing RIGHT NOW.

If we all had to rewatch Randy Moss's debut game with the Pats (Week 1 2007 at NYJ) we may start to feel differently.

 

[shareef242]

Smith played from 97-2000



Smith ran for 1266 yds in 97- the year before RM was drafted. In those 4 years the Vikes sent 5 different offensive lineman to the Pro Bowl.

In 97' didn't make that Pro Bowl. He did with Moss in 98'.

In 99' Hoard was the better player & it didn't make one difference for Moss.

Teams feared Carter/Moss & almost never played 8 in the box. That's why Smith had his best year in 2000 for 1500 yards.

Carter said during his time playing with Moss from 98-01 & the hundreds of snaps he would bet he could count on 2 hands he saw an 8 man front.

Just think about that. He is putting up those numbers in a Cover 2 or some kind of zone coverage. That is amazing.

 

[PatsFan2]

It could very well be one of those "out of sight, out of mind" phenomenons where we think we appreciate Gronkowski more just because he is producing RIGHT NOW.

If we all had to rewatch Randy Moss's debut game with the Pats (Week 1 2007 at NYJ) we may start to feel differently.

One of his Greatest seasons ever.

 

[shareef242]

Ah c'mon guys...if we replaced Gronk with a prime Moss right now you honestly believe this offense suffers? With AH and Welker working over the middle + Branch? I honestly think it's a new NFL record for points scored.

If we happen to lose to one of the Ds i expect alot of the "we need a deep threat!" cries to come out. If we do lose then we already know how it's going down.


Randy Moss 2003 Vikings Mix - YouTube

You can make a very good argument that 2003 was his best year. Even above 07' 111 grabs for 1632 yards & 17TD's. Look at his teammates.

Culpepper was good & I will give you that. However Dwayne Bates/Nate Burleson was the other wideout. Moe Williams/Micheal Bennett shared the R&B role. Jimmy Kleinsasser was the TE. He carried that bunch.

During that Video you see he beat Darren Sharper & Mike Mckenzie for that beauty of a bomb in the Dome. Well after that play on ever 3rd down no matter the distance. Green Bay played Moss like a gunner on special teams.

Two guys at the line with press coverage! The Saints did it to Calvin Johnson One time in the game against the Saints during the regular season & Collingsworth made a point of saying he never saw that before. I have & it was 2003 with the Packers! Again the Pack did it for THREE QUARTERS!

 

[RobertWeathers]

Jeff George went 8-2 & 1 playoff win. He didn't have another winning season besides that one. His best year was with Moss.

no it was not. check the numbers again. 1994/1995 he was a better Qb.

Cunningham was cutting marble in Las Vegas & done with football. He came back for the paycheck to back up Brad Johnson. He had his best year with Moss when Johnson went down.

1990 RC was better. he accounted for more total offense w/o Moss.

Culpeppers 2004 special season is misleading! He had 19 TD's in the first 5 games. With Moss having 8 of them in the first 5 games. Moss was got hurt in the first quarter of the 5th game & essentially missed the next 6 games.

Culpepper threw 20 TD's the nex 11 games.

So with healthy Moss he throws 19 TD's in 5 games.
Without & with a injured Moss he throws 20 TD's in the next 11 games. What does that tell you.

5 games w/o Moss- offense ave 22.8 ppg. w/ Moss in the last 6 games- 23.5ppg.

In fact I believe if he hadn't gotten hurt he would have seriously challenged Rice in 04'. Before he had Brady. 8 TD's in 4 games & 1 quarter!

maybe. who knows.

 

[RobertWeathers]

In 97' didn't make that Pro Bowl. He did with Moss in 98'..

Smiths numbers were virtually the same. A second 1000yd season gets the attention of voters.

In 99' Hoard was the better player & it didn't make one difference for Moss...

Hoard was better than Robert Smith?

Teams feared Carter/Moss & almost never played 8 in the box. That's why Smith had his best year in 2000 for 1500 yards.

Carter said during his time playing with Moss from 98-01 & the hundreds of snaps he would bet he could count on 2 hands he saw an 8 man front.

Just think about that. He is putting up those numbers in a Cover 2 or some kind of zone coverage. That is amazing.

Meh. Smith missed 2 games in 97. he ave 90yds a game and if he played 16 he would have had 1446 yds. His ypc was greater in 97 and in 2000 he had 60 something more carries. He may have seen less 8 man fronts. he also had a damn good line.

 

[shareef242]

no it was not. check the numbers again. 1994/1995 he was a better Qb.



1990 RC was better. he accounted for more total offense w/o Moss.

5 games w/o Moss- offense ave 22.8 ppg. w/ Moss in the last 6 games- 23.5ppg.



maybe. who knows.

George IMO still was better in 99' in 4 less games. Plus he won a playoff game & was good in the won he loss.

Randall was a better QB in 98'. In 90 he was ONE Read Randall & run.

All I know is in 2004 Culpepper was averaging 3.8 TD's in the five games & 1.8 TD's the next 11 games with no Moss & hobbled one. Where they got those points from I dont know.

 

[shareef242]

Smiths numbers were virtually the same. A second 1000yd season gets the attention of voters.



Hoard was better than Robert Smith?



Meh. Smith missed 2 games in 97. he ave 90yds a game and if he played 16 he would have had 1446 yds. His ypc was greater in 97 and in 2000 he had 60 something more carries. He may have seen less 8 man fronts. he also had a damn good line.

Smith or Hoard it didn't make a difference when Moss came. That's my point. The defense didn't change. It was Cover 2 or some form of zone. So that tells me Smith needed Moss alot more then the other way around.

Of course Hoard isn't better but in 99', he was more reliable. Most of the time I didn't even realize Smith wasn't playing.

 

[RobertWeathers]

George IMO still was better in 99' in 4 less games. Plus he won a playoff game & was good in the won he loss..

The 99 MN team was the best he was on. 97 was better for yds per game and he threw less INTs per throw.

Randall was a better QB in 98'. In 90 he was ONE Read Randall & run..

Have you seen the receiving corp that he had to work with? 3500yds and 30tds with that receiving corp?

All I know is in 2004 Culpepper was averaging 3.8 TD's in the five games & 1.8 TD's the next 11 games with no Moss & hobbled one. Where they got those points from I dont know.

Moss rule was in effect and the entire offense suffered.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Smith or Hoard it didn't make a difference when Moss came. That's my point. The defense didn't change. It was Cover 2 or some form of zone. So that tells me Smith needed Moss alot more then the other way around..

1997 proves you wrong.

Of course Hoard isn't better but in 99', he was more reliable. Most of the time I didn't even realize Smith wasn't playing.

You needed to watch the games then b/c Hoard was at best a serviceable runner.

Robert Smith was a very good runner with and without Moss.

 

[shareef242]

1997 proves you wrong.



You needed to watch the games then b/c Hoard was at best a serviceable runner.

Robert Smith was a very good runner with and without Moss.

That me & fellow Viking fans didn't even notice he wasnt playing says the RB wasn't really a factor. Moss & Carter with especially Moss made that offense & team go.

By the way. Moss 07' more valuable the Gronk 11' but it also is very close. Closer then I thought when I had to disgest it all.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That me & fellow Viking fans didn't even notice he wasnt playing says the RB wasn't really a factor. Moss & Carter with especially Moss made that offense & team go..

That is exactly the crux of my argument. Moss is an incredible talent. Probobly one of the most gifted players the NFL has ever seen. The problem is that because of his talent, teams had a tendency to fall in love with that talent and playmaking ability- to the point of being detrimental to the entire offense. Ironic isn't it? It always seemed to me that once a good, well rounded defense started to focus on Moss, those offenses tended to sputter. '98 NFCCG comes to mind. 07 playoffs for the Pats is another. It happened to Cunningham. It happened to Culpepper. It even happened to Brady.

By the way. Moss 07' more valuable the Gronk 11' but it also is very close. Closer then I thought when I had to disgest it all.

Moss is a superior talent to Gronk. That is without question. Each player needs complimentary pieces and a offensive system that INSISTS on ball distribution and requires versitility. If Gronk/Brady did not have AH or WW, then that would be problematic. There are times that sheer talent takes over. Somtimes its not enough.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I never thought I would see a skill player bring the kind of edge Randy did to the offense.

This is a completely different kind of edge, but at the end of the day, Gronk can contribute a lot more to the offense than Randy can. The days of "doubling Randy and coming down on Welker and we're done" are over. No more drive-killing low-percentage deep shots.

I'm really not trying to take anything away from Randy and how enjoyable it was to watch him play in his prime. But if I had to choose where I'd rather put $10 million a year at this point, it wouldn't even be a discussion.

I swear, the catch Gronk had in the corner of the end zone on Saturday may be the most athletic thing I've ever seen from someone that big. Even if he had eventually lost possession, it still would have been incredible how quickly he tipped and snagged the ball in mid-air.

That was the catch you dream about making as a kid.

Gronk made it.

Overall with his size, speed, good hands, football smarts, and strength enough to carry 3 defenders forward with him, when Brady and he both execute, it is nearly impossible to stop them from getting the yards they need, when they need them.

That makes a HUGE difference in the game of football and as incredible as Moss' contributions were, the two do not even compare.

I'll take moving the ball forward 10 yards consistently over Moss' highlight reel and gaudy stats any time. (That being said, imagine if this team had a credible deep threat too??)

 

[shareef242]

That is exactly the crux of my argument. Moss is an incredible talent. Probobly one of the most gifted players the NFL has ever seen. The problem is that because of his talent, teams had a tendency to fall in love with that talent and playmaking ability- to the point of being detrimental to the entire offense. Ironic isn't it? It always seemed to me that once a good, well rounded defense started to focus on Moss, those offenses tended to sputter. '98 NFCCG comes to mind. 07 playoffs for the Pats is another. It happened to Cunningham. It happened to Culpepper. It even happened to Brady.



Moss is a superior talent to Gronk. That is without question. Each player needs complimentary pieces and a offensive system that INSISTS on ball distribution and requires versitility. If Gronk/Brady did not have AH or WW, then that would be problematic. There are times that sheer talent takes over. Somtimes its not enough.

Now you can talk about his playoff stats with the Pats maybe. However the Vikings he was off the charts besides 2000 NFCCG.

He has 47 grabs for 865 yards & 10 TD's in 12 games. Most of that with the Vikings.

The 98 NFCCG he had 3 grabs for 60 yards & TD in the first half! With Cunningham. He had a adominal strain & was in & out of the lineup the rest of the game.

In 99' with George he had 14 grabs for 325 yards & 3 TD's in 2 games!

In 00' with Culpepper he had just 2 grabs against the Saints. For 121 yards & 2 TD's. A 59 yard TD & 61 yard TD.

Seems to me he wiped his ass with the defense more then not. In Minny that is.

 

[shareef242]

That was the catch you dream about making as a kid.

Gronk made it.

Overall with his size, speed, good hands, football smarts, and strength enough to carry 3 defenders forward with him, when Brady and he both execute, it is nearly impossible to stop them from getting the yards they need, when they need them.

That makes a HUGE difference in the game of football and as incredible as Moss' contributions were, the two do not even compare.

I'll take moving the ball forward 10 yards consistently over Moss' highlight reel and gaudy stats any time. (That being said, imagine if this team had a credible deep threat too??)

Except some one showed earlier that Moss moved the chains in 07' more then Gronk did this year with more 3rd down grabs or something to that effect.

Now you can debate 07' & 11' Gronk. However 98'-03' Moss> over any other TE/WR in the history of the game not named Rice! That Moss did it all.