Could We Use Two LB Additions?

[mgteich]

We have six roster spots in addition to the 3 ILB spots that seem fine with Mayo, Spikes and Guyton.
=============
SIX ROSTER SPOTS - FIVE INCUMBANTS
---------------------------------------
Cunningham, Banta-Cain, Ninkovich
Fletcher, Moore, ???
====================================

BOTTOM LINE QUESTION
How many roster spots at OLB can reasonably be upgraded? Some would argue that 5 could use upgrades, but that two is a reasonable number if the players are available, and the value is there when we pick.

I think that the top three are here for another year, even if they are backups. Besides, I would keep Banta-Cain as a special teamer.

 

[capetide]

We have six roster spots in addition to the 3 ILB spots that seem fine with Mayo, Spikes and Guyton.
=============
SIX ROSTER SPOTS - FIVE INCUMBANTS
---------------------------------------
Cunningham, Banta-Cain, Ninkovich
Fletcher, Moore, ???
====================================

BOTTOM LINE QUESTION
How many roster spots at OLB can reasonably be upgraded? Some would argue that 5 could use upgrades, but that two is a reasonable number if the players are available, and the value is there when we pick.

I think that the top three are here for another year, even if they are backups. Besides, I would keep Banta-Cain as a special teamer.

TBC is way too expensive as a secial teamer. He's way too expensive for a backup. Doubt he will be on the roster if any decent OLB draft picks or free agents end up here. He was overpaid for his production in 2010 and would be surprised if he is overpaid in 2011. So I see at least two spots in the LB corps opening up this year.

 

[JMarr]

in a word, yes.

TBC has no business as part of a Patriots' defensive alignment at this point. Ninkovich has no business as a starting OLB in the NFL. Cunningham had a promising rookie season, but the jury's still out (same with Spikes, plus the fact that he's a four game suspension waiting to happen). Guyton's complete inability to shed blocks and stop RBs renders him a liability even on supposed passing downs.

It's like a broken record, but I'm convinced that BB will trade up if necessary to grab that elusive McGinest elephant--type LB at some point when the draft stars finally align. Couple that with the injuries that always occur, and yes we need more depth as well.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm not sure what you are thinking ...

ILB: Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, Fletcher, (White)
OLB: TBC, Ninkovich, Cunningham, Moore

That's how the roster finished the season.
-- Is Eric Moore working to bulk up and play the 4/5 & 7/9 techniques? Or is he working on his zone drops and TE coverage? I'm inclined to think he's working on being a complete 3-4 OLB in the NE system.
-- I'd like to see NE draft a late OLB project to develop while playing Special Teams. My favorite is Karl Klug (Iowa), but there are others I like such as Bruce Miller, Brandon Bair, or Ryan Winterswyck.
-- I'd also like to see NE look at a UDFA OLB project like D'Aundre Reed, Marc Schiechl, or Taylor Dane.

Tracy White is UDFA.
-- That opens a roster slot for a coverage ILB/STs prospect.
-- There are a number of good athletic kids who also have size in the 235-245 range who fit that bill and can develop beyond a passing down/special teams role as they put on muscle and work up closer to the 250 Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, and Fletcher are packing.

Post draft the LBs should look a bit like this, at minimum - if NE trades down often enough and avoids trading into 2012, they could acquire a number of 7th round picks to use on UDFA types so the kids can get into the playbooks Mayo has in his closet faster:
ILB: Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, Fletcher, (draftee)
OLB: TBC, Ninkovich, Cunningham, Moore, (draftee)

 

[crowell33]

We have six roster spots in addition to the 3 ILB spots that seem fine with Mayo, Spikes and Guyton.
=============
SIX ROSTER SPOTS - FIVE INCUMBANTS
---------------------------------------
Cunningham, Banta-Cain, Ninkovich
Fletcher, Moore, ???
====================================

BOTTOM LINE QUESTION
How many roster spots at OLB can reasonably be upgraded? Some would argue that 5 could use upgrades, but that two is a reasonable number if the players are available, and the value is there when we pick.

I think that the top three are here for another year, even if they are backups. Besides, I would keep Banta-Cain as a special teamer.

Fletcher is a lock. His two sacks and one Interception in limited time bested Jermaine Cunningham. The kid plays ILB, nickel OLB, and special teams all for the minimum salary. Transition from DE to ILB that usually takes 3 years took this kid about three weeks. The high football IQ, hard working, high character , versatile, minimum salary guy Belichick loves.

 

[stinkypete]

Fletcher and Moore are nice stories. I sincerely (hope) doubt that Belichick's not relying on them being regulars in the base defense.

Improvement can come in many forms. It doesn't have to come in the form of a big move into the top 10. As we discuss the draft we keep looking for instant-superstar types. Even some steady role player types would be improvement.

I still think Kerrigan is the answer, though the pre-draft chatter seems to disagree.

 

[crowell33]

Fletcher and Moore are nice stories. I sincerely (hope) doubt that Belichick's not relying on them being regulars in the base defense.

Improvement can come in many forms. It doesn't have to come in the form of a big move into the top 10. As we discuss the draft we keep looking for instant-superstar types. Even some steady role player types would be improvement.

I still think Kerrigan is the answer, though the pre-draft chatter seems to disagree.

http://www.patspulpit.com/2011/2/24/2011928/the-dane-fletcher-experience

Fletcher to "develop into a star over the course of next season" ? Here is the link:

 

[mgteich]

Apparently, for you, our current group of LB's are so strong that we need only add a 7th or two for competition. For you, we are fine with no further help.

Or is that you think that the value at LB for the patriots in the first four rounds is not sufficient to use on a LB or two.

I'm not sure what you are thinking ...

ILB: Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, Fletcher, (White)
OLB: TBC, Ninkovich, Cunningham, Moore

That's how the roster finished the season.
-- Is Eric Moore working to bulk up and play the 4/5 & 7/9 techniques? Or is he working on his zone drops and TE coverage? I'm inclined to think he's working on being a complete 3-4 OLB in the NE system.
-- I'd like to see NE draft a late OLB project to develop while playing Special Teams. My favorite is Karl Klug (Iowa), but there are others I like such as Bruce Miller, Brandon Bair, or Ryan Winterswyck.
-- I'd also like to see NE look at a UDFA OLB project like D'Aundre Reed, Marc Schiechl, or Taylor Dane.

Tracy White is UDFA.
-- That opens a roster slot for a coverage ILB/STs prospect.
-- There are a number of good athletic kids who also have size in the 235-245 range who fit that bill and can develop beyond a passing down/special teams role as they put on muscle and work up closer to the 250 Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, and Fletcher are packing.

Post draft the LBs should look a bit like this, at minimum - if NE trades down often enough and avoids trading into 2012, they could acquire a number of 7th round picks to use on UDFA types so the kids can get into the playbooks Mayo has in his closet faster:
ILB: Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, Fletcher, (draftee)
OLB: TBC, Ninkovich, Cunningham, Moore, (draftee)

 

[mgteich]

Fair enough. So we have Mayo, Spikes, Guyton and Fletcher in the middle, and Cunningham on the outside. That's five of our nine LB positions.

How comfortable are you with the OLB's that are in the rotation with Cunningham?

FOUR POSITIONS
Ninkovich, Banta-Cain, Moore

Fletcher is a lock. His two sacks and one Interception in limited time bested Jermaine Cunningham. The kid plays ILB, nickel OLB, and special teams all for the minimum salary. Transition from DE to ILB that usually takes 3 years took this kid about three weeks. The high football IQ, hard working, high character , versatile, minimum salary guy Belichick loves.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Fletcher and Moore are nice stories. I sincerely (hope) doubt that Belichick's not relying on them being regulars in the base defense.

Improvement can come in many forms. It doesn't have to come in the form of a big move into the top 10. As we discuss the draft we keep looking for instant-superstar types. Even some steady role player types would be improvement.

I still think Kerrigan is the answer, though the pre-draft chatter seems to disagree.

Kerrigan could be the anser for sure. But like anyone we draft they may not be instant overnight successes like everyone is hoping for here.

Some people on this board would be ecstatic if we just cut Guyton,Ninkovich, Fletcher,Moore and Banta Cain because they are not all-pro housheold names. The bottom line is we can certainly improve the linbacking corps but it has to be done over time. Not overnight. Their experience and contributions in our system is too valuable.

Many have been calling for the expulsion of James Sanders for years now. Noone was calling for it the last time we played the Colts.

 

[crowell33]

Fair enough. So we have Mayo, Spikes, Guyton and Fletcher in the middle, and Cunningham on the outside. That's five of our nine LB positions.

How comfortable are you with the OLB's that are in the rotation with Cunningham?

FOUR POSITIONS
Ninkovich, Banta-Cain, Moore

Not very comfortable. I even worry about the "in the rotation with Cunningham" part. I still have hopes for Cunningham and I think he has clear potential, but for a guy who played in 15 games and started 11 games at OLB, having 1 sack all season and 0 inteceptions, with 35 total tackles is terribly poor production.

By contrast, Tully Banta Cain had 45 total tackles & 5 sacks. Ninkovich had 62 total tackles, 4 sacks & 2 interceptions. We have to cut Cunningham some slack because he was a rookie who had never played OLB before, but the production of TBC and Ninkovich clearly dwarfed that of Cunningham. Having said that, the ceiling for Cunningham is clearly several floors higher than the other two. We are left to hope with Cunningham that potential instead becomes production in the near future.

 

[sg14]

I think I know what I'm thinking,,
this draft would be all about upgrading the defense (if we weren't losing OL),
As far as the LB's listed , which ones put the fear into opposing OC's??

It is a nice group, but none remind me of the McGinist, Vrabel, Bruschi, Johnson,,

Mayo is a nice player, he ought to be for the high pick we spent on him, actually I would think for that kinda pick, we would see more on the field. But he is a keeper. (A #10 pick LB should be able to seek and destroy, and blow things up at the LOS)

Guyton is a nice back-up, seems way to linear, one dimensional, not atheltic enough, can't turn when in space on pass defense.

Spikes, a liabilty on passing downs?

Fletcher, has great potential and see a great future, as atheltic as Bruschi.

TBC, liability on run downs

Ninkovich, I like , could become another Vrabel

Cunningham, has potential

Moore we will see

Heck, if BB brought in 4 new guys that play better, then 4 it would be.

Box, weren't you the one talking about camp competition??

I'm not sure what you are thinking ...

ILB: Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, Fletcher, (White)
OLB: TBC, Ninkovich, Cunningham, Moore

That's how the roster finished the season.
-- Is Eric Moore working to bulk up and play the 4/5 & 7/9 techniques? Or is he working on his zone drops and TE coverage? I'm inclined to think he's working on being a complete 3-4 OLB in the NE system.
-- I'd like to see NE draft a late OLB project to develop while playing Special Teams. My favorite is Karl Klug (Iowa), but there are others I like such as Bruce Miller, Brandon Bair, or Ryan Winterswyck.
-- I'd also like to see NE look at a UDFA OLB project like D'Aundre Reed, Marc Schiechl, or Taylor Dane.

Tracy White is UDFA.
-- That opens a roster slot for a coverage ILB/STs prospect.
-- There are a number of good athletic kids who also have size in the 235-245 range who fit that bill and can develop beyond a passing down/special teams role as they put on muscle and work up closer to the 250 Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, and Fletcher are packing.

Post draft the LBs should look a bit like this, at minimum - if NE trades down often enough and avoids trading into 2012, they could acquire a number of 7th round picks to use on UDFA types so the kids can get into the playbooks Mayo has in his closet faster:
ILB: Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, Fletcher, (draftee)
OLB: TBC, Ninkovich, Cunningham, Moore, (draftee)

 

[MaineMan]

In the interest of full disclosure, I believe that the jobs of all our LBs will get significantly easier and their performances enhanced in all aspects if/when we re-strengthen the DL, especially the 30-front.

I also see the LBs organized as:
ILB - Mayo, Spikes, Guyton, Fletcher
OLB - Ninkovich, Cunningham, TBC, Moore

Tracy White is as much an "LB" as Matthew Slater is a "WR", that is to say, nominally, as both are really special teams specialists.

ILB:
I think Mayo and Spikes had started to become an excellent ILB tandem for BB's 3-4, each playing his designated role very well, before Spikes was suspended. I think they'll only continue to get better unless Spikes' off-field issues blow up again (no telling).

Fletcher seemed to me to be coming close to passing Guyton, at least in run defense, toward the end of the season. Guyton appears to have hit his ceiling quite awhile ago and the flaws in his game appear to be well understood. Fletcher appears to have some upside yet. But neither, at this point, seems particularly capable of effectively replacing either Mayo or Spikes for any extended period. Selecting another challenger - anywhere from the 4th on - seems appropriate (though it sometimes seems like even that low bar may be a bit of a stretch with this class). Both Fletcher and Guyton were UDFA, so it's not as if we have a whole lot invested in them if one or the other gets beat out for a roster spot by a new face. I can't really provide a name that I'm confident in because I frankly haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to ILB prospects. None of them seem particularly enticing, but then I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to either Guyton or Fletcher in their respective drafts. I'd heard some very good things about Mario Harvey during the 2010 season, so he might be worth a look in the 7th, short stature or not.

OLB:

I'm confident in Ninkovich as our all-around/starting LOLB. Even if he doesn't ever quite achieve the standard set by Vrabel, I think his continuing development has been more than sufficient. It's too early for me to tell about Cunningham. I think ROLB is a somewhat more difficult position to master and he did some parts of it well as a rookie thrown into the fire (and, possibly, playing at less than 100%), but he obviously has a lot of work to do.

TBC, I believe, was originally drafted primarily as a sub-package rusher and emergency-only reserve OLB. But circumstances - mainly the early departure of Vrabel, the unforeseeable two consecutive seasons on IR for Crable, and the ultimate failures of Burgess and Thomas - conspired to thrust him into a much larger role than he was suited (or originally intended) for. It wouldn't be horrible for us with him going back to his originally intended limited role, but he turns 31 at the end of camp and it's not as if there's a lot of time left for him to get any better. Moore appeared to show some promise in a similar role, but he's actually only six months younger than TBC, so I wouldn't think of him as a very long term sub-role staffing solution either.

Beyond this, even assuming that Cunningham makes a solid 2nd-year leap and keeps improving beyond that, we really have no one to step in for him or for Ninkovich should either of them go out with an injury for an extended period.

Seems to me that we need one more solid all-around OLB with the potential to develop some pass-rush, and/or one younger TBC-type sub-rusher who may develop into an adequate injury replacement for one of our all-around OLBs. Unless the coaches believe that Cunningham truly flopped and that there's little upside for him, I don't think either of these potential new faces/challengers would need to be selected any higher than the #60 or even #74.

So, bottom line for me would be possibly OLB draftees - necessarily draftees since good UDFA prospects aren't guaranteed under current circumstances. But it doesn't seem necessary to me to spend the #17, #28 or #33 on either of them. I really don't believe our scheme derives any extra benefit from Quinn/Kerrigan over Houston/Sheard or even over Acho/Romeus (assuming good health). And a guy like Klug or Trattou in the 7th could be a potential TBC/Moore replacement for the back end.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Apparently, for you, our current group of LB's are so strong that we need only add a 7th or two for competition. For you, we are fine with no further help.

Or is that you think that the value at LB for the patriots in the first four rounds is not sufficient to use on a LB or two.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

You raise the specter of the 2003 linebacking corps who dominated the NFL the one season NE's defense finished first in scoring defense:
-- McGinest: #4 overall in the 1994 draft was entering his 10th season - all with NE.
-- Vrabel: A free agent acquisition and former #91 overall in the 1997 draft was entering his 7th season - his 3rd with NE.
-- Bruschi: A #86 overall in the 1996 draft was entering his 8th season - all with NE.
-- Johnson: #57 overall in the 1995 draft was entering his 9th season - all with NE.
-- Phifer: a free agent acquisition and former 2nd round pick was entering his 13th season - his 3rd with NE.

In comparison:
-- Mayo: #10 overall in the 2008 draft is entering his 4th season - all with NE.
-- Guyton: undrafted, signed following the 2008 draft, is entering his 4th season - all with NE.
-- Spikes: #62 overall is entering his 2nd season - all with NE.
-- Fletcher: undrafted, signed following the 2010 draft, is entering his 2nd season - all with NE.
-- Banta-Cain: #239 overall in the 2003 draft is entering his 9th season - all but 2 with NE.
-- Ninkovich: a free agent acquisition and #135 overall in the 2006 draft is entering his 6th season - his 3rd with NE.
-- Cunningham: #53 overall in the 2010 draft is entering his 2nd season - all with NE.
-- Moore: a free agent acquisition and #186 overall in the 2006 draft is entering his 6th season - his 2nd with NE.
-- Murrell: a free agent acquisition and former undrafted free agent is entering his 2nd training camp with NE - he appeared in 1 game for NE in 2010.

Apples to apples, no question the 2003 core linebackers had a significant experience advantage in both the NE system and in NFL experience over the 2011 roster. Banta-Cain, Mayo, and Guyton are the only three to have practiced and played with some or all of the 2003 core group to pick-up some of the mystique from those days.

So, what can we expect Bil Belichick to do with a linebacker core from a 14-2 team entering 2011 with one or more full seasons in the NE system and the NFL?

Some advocate for chasing a top edge rushing prospect such as Kerrigan or Bowers or Quinn to see if these elite rookie edge rushers are one of the very few who earn double digit sacks as rookies. I like two out of three and would love to see them.

An alternative consideration is to be a bit more patient with the core group BB is building. Perhaps cherry pick an edge rusher somewhere lower down in the draft and see how he performs on Special Teams and spot duty in games.

Competition, I agree there should be some. Yet, who do you bring in who will push the NFL's leading tackler in 2010? I see no one in this draft class capable of meeting that challenge.

Cunningham is the highest drafted OLB prospect of the BB era, drafted in the second round like Roman Phifer. If he takes a second year leap, is there a rookie edge rusher whom we believe will push him for playing time? Quinn doesn't have Cunningham's run stopping resume; Kerrigan and Bowers could, perhaps, give Cunningham a run for his money - but I did read where Ninkovich and Moore both credited Cunningham with creating pressure which helped them with their sacks and pressures - I'd argue it is premature to draft a top 15 edge rusher to replace him just when he's showing promise. With five OLB fighting for a standard three-man rotation, there is already competition.

Poor Guyton is once again under attack in this thread, yet to my eyes he's getting better each year. For the money he's demonstrated he can step in and cover for Mayo, pretty good for an undrafted guy who was third wheel in the 2010 rotation. In this same thread I read some who believe Fletcher will push Guyton and Spikes for playing time - one could argue there is a three-man competition to play alongside Mayo. Again, who in the 2011 draft class is capable of pressuring those three players for playing time? Martez Wilson? He's the top rated ILB, yet he's accused of having the same lack of LB instincts which sometimes hampers Guyton - doesn't sound promising. NE is looking at kids who might be drafted later or signed as undrafted to challenge for core STs roles, perhaps there can be a four-man competition, or more, with a later round kid like Hogue or J.T. Thomas?

The new core LB corps struggled in 2010, but they made enough plays to help towards a 14-2 season. I'm hard pressed to see true competition outside of drafting a top 15 prospect - which could happen and I'd welcome it - but I'm not expecting it to happen. I'm looking back on my experience training entry level personnel in advanced equipment operations and search & rescue techniques, I'm looking at the time it took for a new crew to develop the partnership which made them work effectively together in a chaotic environment. I consider my own experience, and I believe Coach Belichick and his new LB coach will be content to let the competition for playing time come internally with maybe a BPA score for a STs coverage LB to throw into the mix. Patience, it's tough to have when building a team, but whether search & rescue or football, it's a necessary evil. My trainer's eyes see the core of another 2003 LB corps coming together, rough days ahead still, but all to soon we're going to be lamenting the new kids replacing our old favorites - again.

I think I know what I'm thinking,,
this draft would be all about upgrading the defense (if we weren't losing OL),
As far as the LB's listed , which ones put the fear into opposing OC's??

It is a nice group, but none remind me of the McGinist, Vrabel, Bruschi, Johnson,,

Mayo is a nice player, he ought to be for the high pick we spent on him, actually I would think for that kinda pick, we would see more on the field. But he is a keeper. (A #10 pick LB should be able to seek and destroy, and blow things up at the LOS)

Guyton is a nice back-up, seems way to linear, one dimensional, not atheltic enough, can't turn when in space on pass defense.

Spikes, a liabilty on passing downs?

Fletcher, has great potential and see a great future, as atheltic as Bruschi.

TBC, liability on run downs

Ninkovich, I like , could become another Vrabel

Cunningham, has potential

Moore we will see

Heck, if BB brought in 4 new guys that play better, then 4 it would be.

Box, weren't you the one talking about camp competition??

 

[everlong]

I'd also like to see NE look at a UDFA OLB project like D'Aundre Reed

Totally on board with this and wouldn't mind them using a late rounder on him.

Cunningham is the highest drafted OLB prospect of the BB era, drafted in the second round like Roman Phifer. If he takes a second year leap, is there a rookie edge rusher whom we believe will push him for playing time?

I don't think most people are advocating pushing Cunningham out but rather getting him a running mate for the other side. Nincovich has shown some signs that he could be a poor man's Vrable and might be better in coverage but not as effective as a rusher. Perhaps they could go the route of a mid round pass rushing specialist. Vrable and Colvin were both mid rounders.

Poor Guyton is once again under attack in this thread, yet to my eyes he's getting better each year.

I happy with the Guyton/Spikes combo and feel they could in time become the Johnson\Phiffer of this era. As you correctly point out Johnson\Phiffer had far superior experience from 01-04 when they were an elite combination.

Martez Wilson? He's the top rated ILB, yet he's accused of having the same lack of LB instincts which sometimes hampers Guyton

Next to Ayers he's the defensive prospect that I don't get where the love is coming from.

The new core LB corps struggled in 2010, but they made enough plays to help towards a 14-2 season. I'm hard pressed to see true competition outside of drafting a top 15 prospect

That's probably true but if the draft goes the wrong way and all the top DEs are gone at 17 and Bowers (if medically cleared) and Kerrigan are on the board at 17 I'd be pretty happy to add them to the rotation. I know you don't like Smith and he is truly raw and I doubt they would take him at 17 but I think his upside is Ware lite. I don't think BB would take the risk that high but if he reached his potential adding that type of impact player would certainly be an asset. The problem is Ware in this system would be asked to do different things than Ware in the Dallas system but I'm sure they could work it out.

 

[patriotscpfc]

I'm perfectly happy with 10 linebackers. 5 + 5.

Quite happy with the 5 ILB's we already have (including Fletcher and White who I think Bill re-signs when he can)

OLB's, I think we can upgrade over Banta-Cain as a pass-rusher, do it all OLB. That's why I want Quinn.

Cunningham is the starter on the other side (should he have a Chung-like improvement), Ninko and Moore are good depth. That leaves a 5th spot. Maybe Tully, maybe someone else that Bill likes.

ILB: Mayo, Spikes, Guyton, Fletcher, White
OLB: Rookie, Cunningham, Ninko, Moore, Vet/Rookie/Tully

 

[RayClay]

I agree that strengthening the DL (and young, improving secondary) will make the linebackers look better. Should we add? depends what's out there. Our OLB usually have a transition period from DE, but I could see a physical specimen that might be a specialist for a while.

Seems like we might get better value where we pick with DL, OL, RB but I'd love to see Quinn drop maybe.

Hate the bust potential at that spot, though.

Our ILB rotation seems perfect, to me.

 

[MaineMan]

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

"C'est magnifique; mais ce n'est pas la Guerre." Perhaps among the best one-liners in history. At least the world got an enduring sweater style out of the deal, without which Mister Rogers might not have become quite as iconic.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

You raise the specter of the 2003 linebacking corps who dominated the NFL the one season NE's defense finished first in scoring defense:
-- McGinest: #4 overall in the 1994 draft was entering his 10th season - all with NE.
-- Vrabel: A free agent acquisition and former #91 overall in the 1997 draft was entering his 7th season - his 3rd with NE.
-- Bruschi: A #86 overall in the 1996 draft was entering his 8th season - all with NE.
-- Johnson: #57 overall in the 1995 draft was entering his 9th season - all with NE.
-- Phifer: a free agent acquisition and former 2nd round pick was entering his 13th season - his 3rd with NE.

In comparison:
-- Mayo: #10 overall in the 2008 draft is entering his 4th season - all with NE.
-- Guyton: undrafted, signed following the 2008 draft, is entering his 4th season - all with NE.
-- Spikes: #62 overall is entering his 2nd season - all with NE.
-- Fletcher: undrafted, signed following the 2010 draft, is entering his 2nd season - all with NE.
-- Banta-Cain: #239 overall in the 2003 draft is entering his 9th season - all but 2 with NE.
-- Ninkovich: a free agent acquisition and #135 overall in the 2006 draft is entering his 6th season - his 3rd with NE.
-- Cunningham: #53 overall in the 2010 draft is entering his 2nd season - all with NE.
-- Moore: a free agent acquisition and #186 overall in the 2006 draft is entering his 6th season - his 2nd with NE.
-- Murrell: a free agent acquisition and former undrafted free agent is entering his 2nd training camp with NE - he appeared in 1 game for NE in 2010.

Apples to apples, no question the 2003 core linebackers had a significant experience advantage in both the NE system and in NFL experience over the 2011 roster. Banta-Cain, Mayo, and Guyton are the only three to have practiced and played with some or all of the 2003 core group to pick-up some of the mystique from those days.

So, what can we expect Bil Belichick to do with a linebacker core from a 14-2 team entering 2011 with one or more full seasons in the NE system and the NFL?

Some advocate for chasing a top edge rushing prospect such as Kerrigan or Bowers or Quinn to see if these elite rookie edge rushers are one of the very few who earn double digit sacks as rookies. I like two out of three and would love to see them.

An alternative consideration is to be a bit more patient with the core group BB is building. Perhaps cherry pick an edge rusher somewhere lower down in the draft and see how he performs on Special Teams and spot duty in games.

Competition, I agree there should be some. Yet, who do you bring in who will push the NFL's leading tackler in 2010? I see no one in this draft class capable of meeting that challenge.

Cunningham is the highest drafted OLB prospect of the BB era, drafted in the second round like Roman Phifer. If he takes a second year leap, is there a rookie edge rusher whom we believe will push him for playing time? Quinn doesn't have Cunningham's run stopping resume; Kerrigan and Bowers could, perhaps, give Cunningham a run for his money - but I did read where Ninkovich and Moore both credited Cunningham with creating pressure which helped them with their sacks and pressures - I'd argue it is premature to draft a top 15 edge rusher to replace him just when he's showing promise. With five OLB fighting for a standard three-man rotation, there is already competition.

Poor Guyton is once again under attack in this thread, yet to my eyes he's getting better each year. For the money he's demonstrated he can step in and cover for Mayo, pretty good for an undrafted guy who was third wheel in the 2010 rotation. In this same thread I read some who believe Fletcher will push Guyton and Spikes for playing time - one could argue there is a three-man competition to play alongside Mayo. Again, who in the 2011 draft class is capable of pressuring those three players for playing time? Martez Wilson? He's the top rated ILB, yet he's accused of having the same lack of LB instincts which sometimes hampers Guyton - doesn't sound promising. NE is looking at kids who might be drafted later or signed as undrafted to challenge for core STs roles, perhaps there can be a four-man competition, or more, with a later round kid like Hogue or J.T. Thomas?

The new core LB corps struggled in 2010, but they made enough plays to help towards a 14-2 season. I'm hard pressed to see true competition outside of drafting a top 15 prospect - which could happen and I'd welcome it - but I'm not expecting it to happen. I'm looking back on my experience training entry level personnel in advanced equipment operations and search & rescue techniques, I'm looking at the time it took for a new crew to develop the partnership which made them work effectively together in a chaotic environment. I consider my own experience, and I believe Coach Belichick and his new LB coach will be content to let the competition for playing time come internally with maybe a BPA score for a STs coverage LB to throw into the mix. Patience, it's tough to have when building a team, but whether search & rescue or football, it's a necessary evil. My trainer's eyes see the core of another 2003 LB corps coming together, rough days ahead still, but all to soon we're going to be lamenting the new kids replacing our old favorites - again.

Great post. Again, Rome was not built overnight. Every year of experience will help these guys get better. The team is young and you could easily say they have overachieved at this point in their careers. 14-2 still kind of baffles me considering the defensive lapses we did have during the season. Some people seem to forget that Warren,Bodden, Wright and the other Patriots that attributed to this teams success in the past still play for the Patriots.

Believe it or not we were easily improving throughout the season. Injuries are part of this game but in the end the Dline was just decimated and this team was clawing it's way into the playoffs. We don't have a ton to improve on but I would say it is time to bring in two high caliber DE's and 1 OLB to groom. Warren isn't getting any younger and I'm not convinced Wright will always be there.Those were some pretty serious concussions he had over the last couple of seasons.

Martez Wilson is an interesting prospect but he is off my board because of that neck injury. Could he play OLB? I'm starting to think maybe. He is one of the best tacklers in this draft. But his instincts are also in question. Seems better suited to play ILB and a gamble to play the OLB position. Those 2nd rounders are just too valuable. I'd be more inclined to use them on a lunch pail guy like Jenkins or Ellis who certainly fill a need

I like a bunch of guys staying put at 17 for OLB if they go that route. Unlike you I do like a trade up to 10 to get Quinn if he is there. I'm up in the air on Von Miller and going up that high to get him. I wouldn't complain if they did because that's BB showing his confidence that he's his guy. I think the world would be shocked if they went all the way up to get Dareus. For some reason I wouldn't.

If he doesn't draft an OLB with no clear converted 34 DE hybrid, that speaks volumes about how BB feels about the guys in place. I think just drafting a couple of defensive ends might do the trick. With the added experience and a bigger push from the front, added coverage from Bodden, maybe this will give those guys free reign back there? One thing for sure is I would like to see the passing over the middle lowered down to a minimum this season along with the 3rd down efficiency improving.

 

[mgteich]

Why are the choices only include the top 15 and 7th round?

1) I agree that Belichick is very unlikely to use the first pick on a linebacker.
2) I agree that Belichick will also look for value ion the 5th and later later, as he will at all positions.
3) The question is whether there is value in the 25-125 range.
4) While I agree that Belichick is much more satisfied at LB than those posting, I still think that a player like Reed would be an upgrade.

QUOTE=Box_O_Rocks;2524553]Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

You raise the specter of the 2003 linebacking corps who dominated the NFL the one season NE's defense finished first in scoring defense:
-- McGinest: #4 overall in the 1994 draft was entering his 10th season - all with NE.
-- Vrabel: A free agent acquisition and former #91 overall in the 1997 draft was entering his 7th season - his 3rd with NE.
-- Bruschi: A #86 overall in the 1996 draft was entering his 8th season - all with NE.
-- Johnson: #57 overall in the 1995 draft was entering his 9th season - all with NE.
-- Phifer: a free agent acquisition and former 2nd round pick was entering his 13th season - his 3rd with NE.

In comparison:
-- Mayo: #10 overall in the 2008 draft is entering his 4th season - all with NE.
-- Guyton: undrafted, signed following the 2008 draft, is entering his 4th season - all with NE.
-- Spikes: #62 overall is entering his 2nd season - all with NE.
-- Fletcher: undrafted, signed following the 2010 draft, is entering his 2nd season - all with NE.
-- Banta-Cain: #239 overall in the 2003 draft is entering his 9th season - all but 2 with NE.
-- Ninkovich: a free agent acquisition and #135 overall in the 2006 draft is entering his 6th season - his 3rd with NE.
-- Cunningham: #53 overall in the 2010 draft is entering his 2nd season - all with NE.
-- Moore: a free agent acquisition and #186 overall in the 2006 draft is entering his 6th season - his 2nd with NE.
-- Murrell: a free agent acquisition and former undrafted free agent is entering his 2nd training camp with NE - he appeared in 1 game for NE in 2010.

Apples to apples, no question the 2003 core linebackers had a significant experience advantage in both the NE system and in NFL experience over the 2011 roster. Banta-Cain, Mayo, and Guyton are the only three to have practiced and played with some or all of the 2003 core group to pick-up some of the mystique from those days.

So, what can we expect Bil Belichick to do with a linebacker core from a 14-2 team entering 2011 with one or more full seasons in the NE system and the NFL?

Some advocate for chasing a top edge rushing prospect such as Kerrigan or Bowers or Quinn to see if these elite rookie edge rushers are one of the very few who earn double digit sacks as rookies. I like two out of three and would love to see them.

An alternative consideration is to be a bit more patient with the core group BB is building. Perhaps cherry pick an edge rusher somewhere lower down in the draft and see how he performs on Special Teams and spot duty in games.

Competition, I agree there should be some. Yet, who do you bring in who will push the NFL's leading tackler in 2010? I see no one in this draft class capable of meeting that challenge.

Cunningham is the highest drafted OLB prospect of the BB era, drafted in the second round like Roman Phifer. If he takes a second year leap, is there a rookie edge rusher whom we believe will push him for playing time? Quinn doesn't have Cunningham's run stopping resume; Kerrigan and Bowers could, perhaps, give Cunningham a run for his money - but I did read where Ninkovich and Moore both credited Cunningham with creating pressure which helped them with their sacks and pressures - I'd argue it is premature to draft a top 15 edge rusher to replace him just when he's showing promise. With five OLB fighting for a standard three-man rotation, there is already competition.

Poor Guyton is once again under attack in this thread, yet to my eyes he's getting better each year. For the money he's demonstrated he can step in and cover for Mayo, pretty good for an undrafted guy who was third wheel in the 2010 rotation. In this same thread I read some who believe Fletcher will push Guyton and Spikes for playing time - one could argue there is a three-man competition to play alongside Mayo. Again, who in the 2011 draft class is capable of pressuring those three players for playing time? Martez Wilson? He's the top rated ILB, yet he's accused of having the same lack of LB instincts which sometimes hampers Guyton - doesn't sound promising. NE is looking at kids who might be drafted later or signed as undrafted to challenge for core STs roles, perhaps there can be a four-man competition, or more, with a later round kid like Hogue or J.T. Thomas?

The new core LB corps struggled in 2010, but they made enough plays to help towards a 14-2 season. I'm hard pressed to see true competition outside of drafting a top 15 prospect - which could happen and I'd welcome it - but I'm not expecting it to happen. I'm looking back on my experience training entry level personnel in advanced equipment operations and search & rescue techniques, I'm looking at the time it took for a new crew to develop the partnership which made them work effectively together in a chaotic environment. I consider my own experience, and I believe Coach Belichick and his new LB coach will be content to let the competition for playing time come internally with maybe a BPA score for a STs coverage LB to throw into the mix. Patience, it's tough to have when building a team, but whether search & rescue or football, it's a necessary evil. My trainer's eyes see the core of another 2003 LB corps coming together, rough days ahead still, but all to soon we're going to be lamenting the new kids replacing our old favorites - again. [/QUOTE]